EMDR...

[karen]

Hi Freeform,

 

Sorry I sort of dropped the ball on this conversation.. been busier than usual! Probably this should be split from the EMDR thread but I didn't want to separate it from your previous message.

 

>>I was reading your post and what kept coming to me was the idea that there is 'true yin' within yang. In pacing (yin) there is a sense of yang (leading).

 

Exactly.. this is an insight intrinsic to the Dynamic system of thought in the West, which is why I'm immersed in studying it at present . The scientists/philosophers who represent that stream of thought principally include Rudolf Steiner, Samuel Hahnemann, Goethe, Coleridge, Wilhelm Reich, and you see this kind of functionalism in all their work.

 

I find it fascinating that western thinking actually has this understanding, without using the terms yin and yang, but a similar understanding of functional relationships. Although, in this modern view the functional polarity of yin/yang is brought to a new level of development according to our evolution of consciousness, and isn't exactly the same in the way it's applied.

 

 

>>In hypnosis/nlp prespective the pacing works in a similar way... if the intention is to get someone unstuck (and out of their usual mental maps) then you pace your way into their map with a constant underlying intention and suddenly lead them out to a new territory allowing them to expand their original map. If there was no underlying intention, it's easy to just get bogged down in their map and get stuck there yourself.

 

Okay.. couple of comments.. first, I'm not sure that the intention in hypnosis/nlp is to get the person unstuck. Maybe many or most therapists do have that intention. But in my view, the intention of the therapist is to facilitate the natural process whereby the person discovers more of their inner resources. It's more in the spirit of exploration than of strategizing to get out of a predicament. In order to be an effective guide, the therapist would be free of attachment to concepts of stuck or unstuck .

 

Then the therapist can use skillful means to pace a certain pattern that you might call "stuck." But really it's just a matter of guiding the person to explore their experience by directing their attention in ways that they aren't inclined to habitually. The law of similars works well there.

 

So the higher order of intention, I would say, assumes that authentic experience naturally moves the person's consciousness to releasing blockages that impede the communication between the conscious mind and the deep reservoir of resources of the unconscious mind.

 

And in homeopathy, there is a skillful means of destroying the disease entity, by the law of similars, but it's somewhat different from the pacing we've been talking about. In homeopathy (or the broader application of potentized remedies), the remedies are resonating with a particular disease essence which is actually an impingement on the generative aspect of the life force. Disease is a creative (sexual) act and can only be cured by another entity that can act on that level.

 

The life force being a functional polarity, has two aspects which have been called Generative and Sustentive. The Generative side is impinged on by diseases, and diseases are destroyed using the law of similars; while the Sustentive side becomes unbalanced by various forces which are not diseases, and is balanced using the law of opposites.

 

When you're balancing things, whether it's nutrient levels, the two sides of the autonomic nervous system, the Ayurvedic doshas, the TCM organ systems, or yin and yang, you're working with the sustentive aspect of the life force and the law of opposites.

 

The potentized ("homeopathic") remedy is qualitatively different, because it's not balancing the sustentive side, but destroying impingements on the generative side, using the law of similars.

 

This is a distinction that's only found in Dr. Hahnemann's work and the Dynamic system, and which most schools of homeopathy are missing entirely.

 

If we don't have a clear understanding of the principles and jurisdictions in which they apply, we can play around with using opposites here and using similars there, according to what works best empirically. That's fine, but we don't know how to apply that kind of learning across the board to any situation if we're not grounded in principles. Then we don't have true science.

 

What you refer to as getting bogged down might mean becoming entranced in a false polarity (either identifying with their false belief or disengaging from it), instead of allowing the dance of the true functional polarity to unfold.

 

>>It's interesting how we associate to 'tension' differently. I dont see it as 'strain'. I see it as a creative/distructive force that mediates between the two opposite poles (yin and yang). It's like the pull/push you get when you bring two magnets together. It's the sexual tension that manifests between the sexes. It's the tension between the painter and his blank canvas. It's the tension between you as you are now, and you as you will be (present and future).

 

Yes! I didn't mean "strain" in a negative sense, although it can be experienced as discomfort. But in health, there is always a dynamic tension between functional polarities.

 

I think we need to be precise about "polarity" vs "opposite," with the two sides of a functional polarity being distinct yet not opposite. The dynamic tension in health is a dance of polarities, not a multitude of imbalances calling for balance via opposites.

 

When we talk about creation and destruction, we're talking about a dynamic phenomenon, which means it's spirit-like. That's why Hahnemann used terms like "generative power," to describe the aspect of the Living Power that's involved in creation and destruction. But the Sustentive power is the aspect that is subject to the law of opposites, and we don't talk about creation and destruction in relation to that, but support, filling deficiencies, removing excesses, etc.

 

I'd say that when the cave man drew a picture of a buffalo in his cave, he was invoking the generative power by creating something, even though it's a representation of something. But also, the cave man was operating in a totally different state of consciousness than we have now.. sort of a dream state with very little consciousness of an invidiaul Self and limited ability to invoke the generative power.

 

I hope that adds something generative to the discussion, not just sustentive . Now to go invoke the law of opposites to fill my empty stomach,

 

Karen

[freeform]

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Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[karen]

I always learn something new from your posts Karen. The generative and sustentive principles make a lot of sense!

 

Rang like a bell when I first learned about it! And there are always more and more levels of learning.. I'm sure I'm in for an interesting ride with the 4-yr training .

 

Many of the Taoist formulas are very much sustentive - in my mind this seems to follow the macrocosm of the culture that these practices were born from.

 

Yes! There's a lot of value in the wisdom traditions of ancient cultures, no question. But I'm finding out that because of evolutionary changes we've gone through, the generative power hasn't come to full function until recently. Ancient cultures had some form of it, which is why we find the Creative principle in all of them. But people who were less incarnated than we are, didn't have the highly developed generative power that we do. So they didn't have the capacity to become truly sovereign individuals as we do, and also didn't have the capacity for developing disease, because disease involves the generative power.

 

I find Heilkunst an especially powerful teaching because it integrates the work of Hahnemann on the medical front, with the knowledge of the evolution of consciousness from Rudolf Steiner, and the energetic psychology of Reich (functional orgonomy), into one stream of Dynamic thought.

 

When you see things phenomenologically, it's pretty cool to understand where everything fits in - Huna, EFT, etc.!

 

But let me warn you about homeopathy.. what you'll find in London, as everywhere where there are homeopaths, it's not Hahnemann's system they're based on. Heilkunst is actually based on Hahnemann only because about 10 years ago a German scholar (Steven Decker) translated Hahnemann's original work in a way that brought to light a whole new view of what was really in there.

 

Even German homeopaths weren't interpreting Hahnemann correctly, because it takes a functional, dynamic mindset to interpret it. Hahnemann's writing is like poetry that you have to understand with more than just the intellect. And also, most of what's come to be known as homeopathy is based on secondary texts not Hahnemann's actual work. So there's been tremendous confusion, and we ended up with classical homeopathy being just as dogmatic and based on authority and opinion not real principles of nature, as conventional medicine is.

 

What Rudi and Steven have done is to take Hahnemann's genius, which sometimes wasn't fully spelled out in his writing (as most genius is often not aware of itself), and to develop it into practical form for modern people. In other words, it takes a genius to know genius, and everything they've elucidated for us is grounded in Hahnemann. And the reason the focus is all on Hahnemann is because his work was a watershed for the modern era, gave us the blueprint for curing diseases that have arisen out of our distinctly different consciousness.

 

For many years I searched for "the" method and practitioner who could cure me, and thought I'd find it in some old vedic healer deep in the Himalayas, but was too sick to travel.. well, it might have been fun to trek around the world, but maybe also not fun.

 

Now if I could go anywhere on earth even to some remote hut to find the most brilliant healer, I'd stay in my apartment and have phone consults with my Heilkunst practitioner . Or go up to Ottawa to see him just for the fun of it, but even that's not necessary!

 

The brilliance is in the principles, and all the Heilkunst practitioners can apply them.. it doesn't require extraordinary brilliance to practice it successfully now that we have the map.

 

Well, back to classical homeopathy.. mostly that's what homeopaths practice, although there are also those who do "complex" homeopathy which is also not based on real principles, been there done all of that many times over. Very low success rates all of them, although they'll boast a few dramatically successful cases, just as you'll find anywhere. If you want more info about a particular type of homeopathy, I can go into more detail.

 

But mainly I'd recommend saving your money if it's not Heilkunst. And Heilkunst can be done by phone consult and remedies sent by mail very easily. The center in Ottawa works internationally all the time. The college has been graduating practitioners for the past 7-8 years or so, so they're out there, although most are in Canada and some in the U.S.

 

Fun stuff, eh? (I talk to Canadians a lot )

 

-Karen

Edited August 14, 2006 by karen

[SifuPhil]

A system is only as good as the organizing structure that gives meaning to it.

With all due respect, the same could be said of EFT and Medical Qigong Therapy...

 

..."there is nothing new under the sun"...

Edited August 15, 2006 by SifuPhil

[karen]

With all due respect, the same could be said of EFT and Medical Qigong Therapy...

 

Exactly, because they're simply tools that we have to bring our consciousness to, and can't expect to get great results by simply applying something passively.

 

About there being nothing new under the sun, I'd agree too, if you mean things like water is wet . Principles grounded in nature aren't new, although we're developing our capacity to know truth, so our systems for applying what we know will change over time as our knowledge develops.

 

-Karen

[SifuPhil]

...I'd agree too, if you mean things like water is wet .

- sometimes it is...and sometimes it's solid...and sometimes it's kind of steamy...

 

Principles grounded in nature aren't new, although we're developing our capacity to know truth, so our systems for applying what we know will change over time as our knowledge develops.

Point well made and taken.

 

Not to detour the thread (if I am, please just ignore me), but how do you see that we're developing our capacity to know truth? Would it be on a faith-based system (a belief or personal philosophy), through scientific endevours, or...?

 

And a somewhat-related question - you mention that our systems for applying what we know change over time. Given that everything is in a constant state of change, yet nature (as an example) retains certain "qualities" - why would we need to change our methods of application? In other words, are we just changing systems because we want/need/expect an easier, more digestable method of inquiry? Is the "new" way actually superior to the "old"? Or, as I've seen happen many times, is the "old" dismissed out-of-hand because of it's initial difficulty in comprehension?

 

Once again, I don't mean to hijack this thread - my apologies in advance if that is indeed the case.

[Trunk]

Not to discount dilettantism as a real obstacle .. but my observation is that there are also students who have been in a system for some considerable years, and find effective complementary information & methods in other system/s.

.. how do you see that we're developing our capacity to know truth?

Two ways that I've been observing: Heaven & earth through the connective tissue, centering in the marrow (with the spine as a special segment of marrow). Also, integrating the Big Light through the endocrine system, nerve plexuses, energetic centers, and centering in thebindus (along the central channel).

 

.. nature (as an example) retains certain "qualities" - why would we need to change our methods of application? In other words, are we just changing systems because we want/need/expect an easier, more digestable method of inquiry?

There are specialized skillsets of cultivation, and different traditions (and different teachers) have their strong suits. (And, sometimes even within their strong suits they only offer part of the picture. Often the best you can get from a system is part of the path, no disrespect nor ingratitude meant.) Also, the configurations of individuals varies considerably. Often it's legitamately needed for a student to apply several different modalities over the course of time. The people who are really into this sort of thing are in it for "the duration" (whatever that is). I've found that its taken me five years or so to get an introduction to an approach, though I don't think that there is ever a "completing" an authentic system.

 

Personally, I don't think that hatha yoga was especially suited to my body. A psychotherapuetic model was useful for a while, but had to eventually give way to bigger stuff. Meditation took, but after a certain point I needed more rooting, and some Taoist practices have clued me in to ways in which rooting relates to the connective tissue. Scott Sonnon's work has given me new leverage on accessing the connective tissue, so it is pretty directly complementing some avenues that I explored through Taoism. Though I'm a far way from getting any of that all the way through my body. I haven't stablized things to a satisfactory degree, yet. Far enough into it so that I think I have some direction, and sometimes feel well put together, other times really stumbling.

 

A good case could be made (and has been) that I'm a poor student, or a difficult one, or both. A teacher that I sat with, once said to us that "you're all in way over your heads", and that's the way it feels to me. .. if the mark of a good student is that s/he is Realized, then we are mostly bad students, or it's just a long difficult road, or both.

 

Trunk

[SifuPhil]

Haven't you heard? There IS no such thing as a "difficult student" - only "too-easy teachers"!

 

Extremely well-considered replies to my questions - thank you, Trunk.

 

By the way - you mentioned a sort of synthesis of techinques / modalities in your quest - that brings to mind that I once had a ladyfriend who was a Pilates teacher, and the work on the core was amazingly apt for taoist practices - really worked the lower abdominal / spinal regions. So yes, it seems to be true - you can find knowledge wherever you look - it just depends upon how you look.

 

Thanks again!

[Lozen]

I have to adapt hatha yoga to fit what I'm trying to do energetically. Hatha yoga sends the energy downward and inward, I am trying to let the energy go upward and outward.

[Trunk]

By the way - you mentioned a sort of synthesis of techinques / modalities in your quest - that brings to mind that I once had a ladyfriend who was a Pilates teacher, and the work on the core was amazingly apt for taoist practices ..

Yup, pilates is very Taoist. We've been sharing information here for some years now, so it has come up before. Cyber-discussion has been pretty progressive that way. The website that I maintain, AlchemicalTaoism.com, is a community collection of some of our 'greatest hits'. Pilates has been in the "Establishing the Abdomen" section for some time.

[SifuPhil]

...We've been sharing information here for some years now, so it has come up before. Cyber-discussion has been pretty progressive that way. The website that I maintain, AlchemicalTaoism.com, is a community collection of some of our 'greatest hits'. Pilates has been in the "Establishing the Abdomen" section for some time.

...guess I really should get out into the world a little more, eh?

 

Thank you!

[affenbrot]

I have to adapt hatha yoga to fit what I'm trying to do energetically. Hatha yoga sends the energy downward and inward, I am trying to let the energy go upward and outward.

hey this is interesting because with me i always found that yoga would bring the energy up and to the surface

and most qigong bring it inward and down....

i always thought the techniques as such would yield this effect, but maybe it is more how each different

body's constitution reacts to different input...