Holy $#!@! Kunlun doesn't DO anything...

[gendao]

Can someone now please explain to me how my realization was limited?

 

MY REALIZATION: I mean, being infinite, all powerful, limited only by our belief structures (thoughts, attachments & egos) - is that not INSTANT enlightenment, or does this "awakened state" entail something more?

 

It is my belief that buddha just sat down under a tree and was like... "OH... It was ME the entire time!!! 17 years of breathing just to realize THIS? HaHaHa COSMIC JOKE!"

 

So my theory is that once he understood he was creating his own reality then from then on he understood the necessity to only think of Right Virtue, which he teached, that healed himself, and his world.

 

Am I wrong in stating/realizing/assuming this? That we are ALL already "awake" perfectly realized divine creative beings, pretending we are not or imposing limitation on our already perfect unlimited Self?

 

Is that the great "A-HA!" of 'enlightenment' ??? To see that YOU ARE CREATING ALL OF IT???

 

So you have no Self except that which you create? You are everything, and nothing. Yes?

 

So it's like.. no 'practice' does *Anything* per say, only reveals us to ourselves... like, if I believed standing on my head chanting "OMMM CHOCK NOK SLOK OHMMMMM" over and over again would bring me Gold Dragon Body and Samadhi, and I FULLY and TRULY believed it would (even though it would be me the entire time) than it WOULD, right?

 

So I've ARRIVED... but I've never really left? Is this it?

 

 

Input highly appreciated.. thanks..

You have some great ideas!

 

But, could you tell us about your actual experiences of these states of realization you refer to? Or were these mostly only intellectual understandings?

[Otis]

Make sense? Did I hit the nail on the head with this whole "Awakening" business, or what?

I don't know.

 

From my perspective, practice is not something I do, with some idea that eventually down the road, I will arrive somewhere.

 

Instead, I practice just to get better at life. If I'm afraid of something, I go face that fear. If I am not comfortable in my body, I get to know my body better. If I have a habit that gets in my way, I pay attention to it, and put myself in the situation that triggers it, practicing calm balance.

[Sunya]

So it's all just a dream then... And then I would need to now "dream" in a more, pleasurable "enlightened" virtuous way since I now see myself as infinite and without limits?

 

Like I'm now awoken from the nightmare now dreaming that I have a perfect healthy body healed of it's sicknesses, perfect harmonious relationships... a constant state of joy etc, my goal is now to realize and now BE this...?

 

For there to be a dream, there has to be a dreamer. Who is the dreamer? Everything that you write is a story with the assumption that there is a dreamer, someone to control the dream, a self which acts, creates, and actually has control. Who is infinite and without limits? Who is it that has woken up?

 

These are serious questions. Please contemplate them and see what happens.

[henro]

I don't know.

 

From my perspective, practice is not something I do, with some idea that eventually down the road, I will arrive somewhere.

 

Instead, I practice just to get better at life. If I'm afraid of something, I go face that fear. If I am not comfortable in my body, I get to know my body better. If I have a habit that gets in my way, I pay attention to it, and put myself in the situation that triggers it, practicing calm balance.

 

 

 

Brilliant post !!!!!

[Mizu]

For there to be a dream, there has to be a dreamer. Who is the dreamer? Everything that you write is a story with the assumption that there is a dreamer, someone to control the dream, a self which acts, creates, and actually has control. Who is infinite and without limits? Who is it that has woken up?

 

These are serious questions. Please contemplate them and see what happens.

 

Okay, so I am *Everything*, all potentials.. I can be a female, a male, a tree, a squirrel, a planet... only limited by my ego. Yes?

 

So then, again I ask, if this is the Cosmic Joke... my work now is to create RIGHT[virtuous]?

 

Assuming Awakening is this great realization of our infinite capacity, our True Self - simple, yet incredible at the same time, and then Enlightenment is SELF-REALIZING Virtue in the essence of Truth, or rather BECOMING LOVE - in the image of God or w/e you want to see it as, akak PERFECT )or whatever the soul desires to BE now) yes?

 

I feel like there is no more need to 'know' anything, like, now I just need to BE and KNOW any form of Truth I want to experience with Self.

 

 

*** OH, and serious question: Do I need to even meditate anymore? I mean, what's the point?

Edited July 26, 2011 by Mizu

[Sunya]

Okay, so I am *Everything*, all potentials.. I can be a female, a male, a tree, a squirrel, a planet... only limited by my ego. Yes?

 

So then, again I ask, if this is the Cosmic Joke... my work now is to create RIGHT[virtuous]?

 

 

Where is the 'I' that is everything? The great cosmic joke is that you assume that thoughts require a thinker, actions require a doer. There is no you. That's the joke.

[Informer]

Where is the 'I' that is everything? The great cosmic joke is that you assume that thoughts require a thinker, actions require a doer. There is no you. That's the joke.

 

Careful with wording here. Do you mean he don't exist at all, or the thought doesn't exist?

[Jetsun]

You can come to an intellectual realisation of all this stuff but what use is it? after that you need to make everything in your subconscious and your whole body realise it too, which may take daily practice for the rest of your life.

[Sunya]

Careful with wording here. Do you mean he don't exist at all, or the thought doesn't exist?

 

Look at a tree. What do you see? Looks like there is something actually there referred to as 'tree' when in reality tree is a continual process lacking any inherent self. Cut open a tree and you won't find some immutable 'treeness' which makes a tree a tree. I wouldn't say that the tree doesn't exist at all, because there it is, but certainly there's no 'self' in tree. Why are 'you' different? Because 'your' thoughts assure you that you exist as a substantive being which persists from moment to moment and is peering out through the eyes?

Edited July 26, 2011 by Sunya

[Informer]

Look at a tree. What do you see? Looks like there is something actually there referred to as 'tree' when in reality tree is a continual process lacking any inherent self. Cut open a tree and you won't find some immutable 'treeness' which makes a tree a tree. I wouldn't say that the tree doesn't exist at all, because there it is, but certainly there's no 'self' in tree. Why are 'you' different? Because 'your' thoughts assure you that you exist as a substantive being which persists from moment to moment and is peering out through the eyes?

 

depends, are you referring to the ego? or the awareness in which everything arises? Which anything that arises within awareness can't possibly be the self.

 

Yes you will find all sorts of things that makes a tree a tree. It's a compilation of things No any single thing.

 

So, do you exist?

[Sunya]

depends, are you referring to the ego? or the awareness in which everything arises? Which anything that arises within awareness can't possibly be the self.

 

So, do you exist?

 

Referring to the belief that there is something which persists moment to moment and that something is separate from and somehow in control of thoughts and actions. I guess that's the ego, eh? There is no self in awareness either though, thus thoughts like "I am everything" are still referring back to the ego and not awareness, which can't possibly be identified with.

 

Do "I" exist? No. Of course not. This whole paragraph was written automatically without any 'doer' -- and during the process of writing, this body changed biologically. I'm actually a whole new person now than I was when I began writing this.... There is nobody here to point to and say 'ah, there you are.' I'm just like the tree, a collection of intricate processes all working together because of the proper conditions.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Sunya

[C T]

depends, are you referring to the ego? or the awareness in which everything arises? Which anything that arises within awareness can't possibly be the self.

 

Yes you will find all sorts of things that makes a tree a tree. It's a compilation of things No any single thing.

 

So, do you exist?

All sorts of things? Meaning all the non-tree elements, right? Like oxygen, sunshine, rain, soil, manure, wind, darkness etc? All these elements coming together to bring forth what is conventionally called a tree?

 

Existence exists. There is existence. Labels like "You", "I", "We", "He" and "She" are merely conventional word arrangements whereby the possibility of communication becomes enhanced.

 

Cant bear to think what the consequences will be if you venture out on the streets and start proclaiming, "I DON'T EXIST!".

[Informer]

Referring to the belief that there is something which persists moment to moment and that something is separate from and somehow in control of thoughts and actions. I guess that's the ego, eh? There is no self in awareness either though, thus thoughts like "I am everything" are still referring back to the ego and not awareness, which can't possibly be identified with.

 

Do "I" exist? No. Of course not. This whole paragraph was written automatically without any 'doer' -- and during the process of writing, this body changed biologically. I'm actually a whole new person now than I was when I began writing this.... There is nobody here to point to and say 'ah, there you are.' I'm just like the tree, a collection of intricate processes all working together because of the proper conditions.

 

If you don't exist then why are you here? This world is a place where people exist, if you don't then why are you here?

 

I would reccommend you to go back to your hole, where you can not exist in peace. Then think about how you can exist.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Informer

[Informer]

All sorts of things? Meaning all the non-tree elements, right? Like oxygen, sunshine, rain, soil, manure, wind, darkness etc? All these elements coming together to bring forth what is conventionally called a tree?

 

Existence exists. There is existence. Labels like "You", "I", "We", "He" and "She" are merely conventional word arrangements whereby the possibility of communication becomes enhanced.

 

Cant bear to think what the consequences will be if you venture out on the streets and start proclaiming, "I DON'T EXIST!".

 

Yeah man, that's why I am trying to keep people from convincing themselves that!

 

Fortunately most here see the absurdity of it.

 

[JohnC]

I don't know.

 

From my perspective, practice is not something I do, with some idea that eventually down the road, I will arrive somewhere.

 

Instead, I practice just to get better at life. If I'm afraid of something, I go face that fear. If I am not comfortable in my body, I get to know my body better. If I have a habit that gets in my way, I pay attention to it, and put myself in the situation that triggers it, practicing calm balance.

 

Bumped for over 9000.

[Mizu]

Bumped for over 9000.

 

The wtf is the point of meditation and all these practices? To lead us to the heart center? Which then needs to pour out to EVERY aspect and avenue of our lives and existence here? Or is there more to it?

 

Edited July 27, 2011 by Mizu

[Mal]

I feel like there is no more need to 'know' anything, like, now I just need to BE and KNOW any form of Truth I want to experience with Self.

 

 

*** OH, and serious question: Do I need to even meditate anymore? I mean, what's the point?

 

basically yes - mediation is what allows you to "Be" and, as I recently read in a book, there are ALWAYS higher levels.

[Aetherous]

About the no self thing...I think there is a self, but it changes throughout life. It's not an idea, but a multifunctioning aspect of the mind and body.

 

For instance, I can tell you to jump. If you choose to do it, you can cause the body to do it.

 

If there were truly no self, the recognition of what I was asking you to do, the choosing (especially), and the execution would not happen. Consider how amazing it is that you can basically do whatever you want with the body...it is within your control. What causes the hand to type when you are causing it to type? Trippy, man.

 

If there is no self, then look at your life and try to define why it is you're an individual consciousness. If trees are the same as the body, then why are you stuck inside of here? Why not leave the body and center yourself within the tree? Why can't you see out of anyone else's eyes?

 

So, no-self is an interesting mental exercise. You can disidentify with everything if you want. But look at the things which don't change regarding individual experience...embodiment of awareness, ability to function, decisiveness, etc.

 

So yeah, "self", a multifunctioning changing aspect...or something.

[Sunya]

If you don't exist then why are you here? This world is a place where people exist, if you don't then why are you here?

 

I would reccommend you to go back to your hole, where you can not exist in peace. Then think about how you can exist.

 

There is no self to not be here, and there is no where to be but here, so here I am!

[Mal]

About the no self thing...I think there is a self, but it changes throughout life.

 

I agree although I feel that the self changes all the time and isn't as "solid/unchanging" as it tries to convince itself

 

i.e. Did you chose to jump over the stick? Or did you naturally and instantaneously avoid the obstacle and then internally talk yourself into believing that "yourself" chose to jump?

[Sunya]

About the no self thing...I think there is a self, but it changes throughout life. It's not an idea, but a multifunctioning aspect of the mind and body.

 

For instance, I can tell you to jump. If you choose to do it, you can cause the body to do it.

 

There is no one that causes anything. An idea will come into your mind from seemingly nowhere to tell me to jump, maybe you heard about the idea on TV or in a book, but you didn't create the idea. Past conditioning and a myriad of events take place which then lead to the intention to speak those words, and then the vocal command is given. The sound vibrations come to this ear over here, enters this mind and goes through all my past conditioning and filters, etc. and perhaps the intention will arise to move this body.

 

If there were truly no self, the recognition of what I was asking you to do, the choosing (especially), and the execution would not happen. Consider how amazing it is that you can basically do whatever you want with the body...it is within your control. What causes the hand to type when you are causing it to type? Trippy, man.

 

What causes the heart to beat when you are typing? 99% of bodily functions are outside the control of intention, and yet because 1% can be controlled by intention, there is the assumption that this intention = self. Where do ideas come from, like the idea to move the body? The ideas come from nowhere. If the self exists, can the self know what the next thought will be? The next intention? The 'self' has no clue because the self is just another thought which arises from nowhere and vanishes.

 

If trees are the same as the body, then why are you stuck inside of here? Why not leave the body and center yourself within the tree? Why can't you see out of anyone else's eyes?

 

No self doesn't mean everything is one consciousness. That's just the other extreme, All-self.

[Aetherous]

Someone told me to jump and I said "no way man".

[Aetherous]

There is no one that causes anything. An idea will come into your mind from seemingly nowhere to tell me to jump, maybe you heard about the idea on TV or in a book, but you didn't create the idea. Past conditioning and a myriad of events take place which then lead to the intention to speak those words, and then the vocal command is given. The sound vibrations come to this ear over here, enters this mind and goes through all my past conditioning and filters, etc. and perhaps the intention will arise to move this body.

 

"Past conditioning" is part of what makes you, a self.

 

What causes the heart to beat when you are typing? 99% of bodily functions are outside the control of intention, and yet because 1% can be controlled by intention, there is the assumption that this intention = self. Where do ideas come from, like the idea to move the body? The ideas come from nowhere. If the self exists, can the self know what the next thought will be? The next intention? The 'self' has no clue because the self is just another thought which arises from nowhere and vanishes.

 

So you're saying, in order for a self to exist, it has to psychically predict the next thought it will have?

 

Who is aware of the thought that arises from nowhere and vanishes?

 

Who is in control of the 1% of the body? A thought that arises? So each time you go to type a letter on the keyboard, an idea of yourself asking your body to do that arises? Or you simply do it?

 

No self doesn't mean everything is one consciousness. That's just the other extreme, All-self.

 

So there are separate consciousnesses, which consider themselves to be selves, but those separate conscious selves...are not selves?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Scotty

[Sunya]

"Past conditioning" is part of what makes you, a self.

 

If past conditioning and memories and desires and thoughts, etc. are all that make up the self, where is the self apart from these elements? They're all aspects of a story that point to a central character. If we can agree that this central character doesn't ultimately exist, then we would be in agreement. But the very nature of the 'I exist' statement is that this character is quite real.

 

 

Who is aware of the thought that arises from nowhere and vanishes?

 

No one. A self is not required for awareness.

 

Who is in control of the 1% of the body? A thought that arises? So each time you go to type a letter on the keyboard, an idea of yourself asking your body to do that arises? Or you simply do it?

 

No 'one' is in control. The actions are simply done due to many complex processes and conditions.

 

Where do you draw the line between 'you' and 'not-you'? For instance if someone walks up to you and hits you, and you instinctively react to defend yourself, did you do that or was it automatic? If you perform the same action with intention, are you still doing it? Why? The only difference is that conscious thought is involved.

 

So there are separate consciousnesses, which consider themselves to be selves, but those separate conscious selves...are not selves?

 

The meaning of 'self' and how I'm referring to it is an autonomous agent separate from the world that persists from moment to moment (unchanging). A mindstream, which is a momentum of consciousness, is not separate from the world and changes every instant, thus not-self, but also is not 'one' with the world, since that would mean that the world is one giant self.

[Aetherous]

Sunya,

 

If past conditioning and memories and desires and thoughts, etc. are all that make up the self, where is the self apart from these elements? They're all aspects of a story that point to a central character. If we can agree that this central character doesn't ultimately exist, then we would be in agreement. But the very nature of the 'I exist' statement is that this character is quite real.

 

...

 

No one. A self is not required for awareness.

 

When everything else is taken away, self is the individual consciousness which observes without being an object. You can't see it but you know it's there by inference.

 

Consider that you don't see everything in the universe...so your awareness is focused on one small aspect...for instance, a green leaf.

 

 

The green leaf is obviously not the self. You can't point to something in this case and say "self". But how is the green leaf alone appearing if not to YOU? If it were to just appear as part of the universe, with no self involved, then the entire universe would be within awareness.

 

No 'one' is in control. The actions are simply done due to many complex processes and conditions.

 

Yes, due to the multifunctioning aspect of the mind and body...the self.

 

Imagine I numbed your left arm completely, so that you couldn't move it no matter how hard you tried, but I could with muscle stimulators. You as a self could move the right arm with complete control, but you'd have lost control of the left. It would seem like someone else was moving the left when I was stimulating the muscles. So "someone" (as a unit of many complex processes and conditions) is in control here.

 

Where do you draw the line between 'you' and 'not-you'? For instance if someone walks up to you and hits you, and you instinctively react to defend yourself, did you do that or was it automatic? If you perform the same action with intention, are you still doing it? Why? The only difference is that conscious thought is involved.

 

You do it in both instances. "You" also applies to the body. That's why your individual consciousness can't leave your body, and if it can, it must come back at some point...as if its tethered to it. That is part of what makes you, a self.

 

A person can kinda get away with automatic reflexes in this case, though...saying that it wasn't their decision to react instinctually. So "intention" implies a greater involvement of the self, versus automatic or autonomic bodily functions.

 

The meaning of 'self' and how I'm referring to it is an autonomous agent separate from the world that persists from moment to moment (unchanging). A mindstream, which is a momentum of consciousness, is not separate from the world and changes every instant, thus not-self, but also is not 'one' with the world, since that would mean that the world is one giant self.

 

Why can't a "self" be part of the world and be capable of changing?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Scotty