Does Spiritual Enlightenment mean Psychological Maturity?

[ShaktiMama]

[Marblehead]

Well, I still have not seen an acceptable definition of "enlightenment" let alone "spiritual enlightenment".

 

However, I feel comfortable with my understanding of maturity and self-actualization.

 

If I ever find an understanding of "enlightenment" I might then be able to apply that understanding to the "spiritual" realm.

 

Until that time I will continue doing those things that need be done and not do things that don't need be done.

[ShaktiMama]

Well, I still have not seen an acceptable definition of "enlightenment" let alone "spiritual enlightenment".

 

However, I feel comfortable with my understanding of maturity and self-actualization.

 

If I ever find an understanding of "enlightenment" I might then be able to apply that understanding to the "spiritual" realm.

 

Until that time I will continue doing those things that need be done and not do things that don't need be done.

 

 

when I used to teach with Dr. Glenn Morris, he had a saying, "Enlightenment is a biological process." He was referring to the kundalini in this process.

 

I find that enlightenment is a term, just imho, is difficult for westerners to grok with terms from eastern minds. I find pointing people to studies and thinkers in western philosophy and psychology helps us get more of a grip on the subject. It also helps to explain to explain incongruities in eastern gurus in their public and private lives.

 

s

[Jetsun]

Ken Wilber talks about this issue quite well describing the different stages of development and if someone transcends a stage of their development without integrating all that is contained at that level then that which wasn't integrated will remain unconscious and can re-emerge at a later stage in your life, sabotaging you and bringing you back to that earlier stage of development. It seems like it is possible to have high level realisations and become a great meditator and still be screwed at an early stage of emotional development, most meditation and cultivation methods dont deal with that early shadow material very well, certainly there are a lot of gurus who get caught up in scandals and sexual misconduct of some sort. The whole guru relationship can just be a re-enactment of the child parent power struggles so it is important that a teacher has resolved these issues or they will try to find resolution from their students which just leads to scandal and abuse of power.

 

So in summary no I don't think spiritual development means psychological maturity, it can help though and make it more likely.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Jetsun

[Apech]

 

 

 

1. Realistic orientation

2. Acceptance of self, others, and the natural world

3. Spontaneity

4. Task orientation, rather than self-preooccupation

5. Sense of privacy

6. Independence

7. Vivid appreciativeness

8. Spirituality that is not necessarily religious in a formal sense.

9. Sense of identity with mankind

10. Feelings of intimacy with a few loved ones

11. Democratic values

12. Recognition of the difference between means and ends

13. Humor that is philosophical rather than hostile

14. Creativeness

15. Nonconformism

 

 

from "Deficiency Motivation and Growth Motivation", Abraham Maslow. 1955.

 

 

 

I find lists like this almost incomprehensible. What does 'vivid appreciativeness' actually mean?

 

I think there are better lists ... like the paramitas for instance, generosity, patience and so on.

 

I think my answer to the original question is that those that consider themselves enlightened probably are not. Its possible to have experiences (even continuous ones) that impart energy and feelings of bliss and so on ... without properly integrating the meaning or significance of them into oneself. For instance do a lot of energy work, get a big light in your head and get high. So what? It is also possible to be a very wise mature being without any such experiences.

 

True enlightenment is both beyond and the source for these states of being.

[Marblehead]

What does 'vivid appreciativeness' actually mean?

 

 

That is an interesting concept. Perhaps ShaktiMama will speak to it.

[exorcist_1699]

Some points:

 

1) "Enlightenment means psychological maturity ?"

 

Definitely not . On the contrary , it is a reverse process of making your heart childlike, ten times more childlike than kids are ;but.. is it a process of purifying our heart as most people think , or as some Buddhist school( mainly Hinayana) advocates ? No, such kind of hair-splitting way of purifying our mind hardly makes us accomplish Enlightenment. In fact, we attain it " at a stroke", in an abrupt way so that our mind getting no chance of thinking of any pure or impure , good or evil,black or white..things

 

2) "Enlightenment is a biological process..."

 

Bullshit! People say that are still outside the door, not yet crossing the threshold .

 

3)Why " there are a lot of gurus who get caught up in scandals and sexual misconduct .."

 

These "guru" are still at the stage of " jing changing into qi" or don't know how to sublimate their evil "jing " into qi or shen , so they succumb to it. Of course, calling them " guru " is a joke

Edited May 5, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[ShaktiMama]

That is an interesting concept. Perhaps ShaktiMama will speak to it.

 

 

I will get back to it later. I have so much work to do today but it...in a nutshell for me...is an overwhelming feeling of gratitude for the life I live, my people, my environment, my world. I see a beautiful, shining wonder in every little thing.

 

Guru Mayi used to say something like this, "the light of scintillating Consciousness is present in everything, every particle."

 

I must say some of the Eastern terms I have read that describe enlightenment and such are terrifically incomprehensible to me.

 

s

[ShaktiMama]

Some points:

 

1) "Enlightenment means psychological maturity ?"

 

Definitely not . On the contrary , it is a reverse process of making your heart childlike, ten times more childlike than ordinary kids are ;Then is it a process of purifying our heart as most people think , or as some Buddhist school( mainly Hinayana) advocates ? No, such kind of hair-splitting way of purifying our mind hardly makes us accomplish Enlightenment. In fact, we attain it " at a stroke", in an abrupt way so that your mind getting no chance of thinking of any impure things..

 

2) "Enlightenment is a biological process..."

Bullshit! People say that are still outside the door, not yet crossing the threshold .

 

3)Why " there are a lot of gurus who get caught up in scandals and sexual misconduct .."

These "guru" are still at the stage of " jing changing into qi" or don't know how to sublimate their evil "jing " into qi or shen , so they succumb to it. Of course, calling them " guru " is a joke

 

I call BS on your BS comment. Please explain.

 

s

[manitou]

Vivid appreciativeness would equate to extreme gratitude for that which we have, for life in general. For the fact that the trees give us oxygen, and streams give us water. To truly appreciate our friends, to honor them, to appreciate the dwelling that we have manifested for ourselves. To love our dwelling, to keep it up - to be grateful for the mysterious circle of life and how all things rise and fall. Gratitude for the cycles.

 

As to psychological maturity or immaturity, I don't think it's the same thing as becoming As A Child in our outlook toward the world's ways. Psychological maturity goes more to our inner dynamics; are we hateful, jealous, a victim, a bully? Are we gluttons, or prideful, or arrogant? These things are worked out with the Inner Work, and attachments are examined and disposed of. We get down to the Pure, the Genuine, the uncarved wood - and yes, I do think on that level that our psychological immaturities have straightened out greatly because we had to get through them to get to the core anyway. It is then that the outlook of the child can be attained.

Edited May 5, 2011 by manitou

[tao_gone_blue]

I don't necessarily believe that enlightenment specifically corresponds with psychological maturity, though I definitely see a correlation with finding true enlightenment along the way to reaching the top of Maslow's hierarchy. A lot of the steps on the hierarchy look similar to stages passed through on the way to enlightenment and they certainly encompass characteristics we tend to associate with enlightened persons.

 

However, the desire to return to the uncarved block, or child-like state, I feel is somewhat incongruous with what we actually know children to be. We idealize child-like natures as we walk the path, but children are, by nature, immature. They steal, they lie, they're prejudiced (how many kids do you know immediately want to try brussel sprouts?) and do all sorts of things out of the purely driven motivation of self-satisfaction or preservation. That doesn't necessarily match the various jewels as we understand them along the path once we get a little older.

 

Some aspects do matter: their hearts are often more open to change, they don't have to pass through certain prejudices (race, height, size, etc.), which are signs of maturity, but they're also very open to persuasion and therefore easily subject to the thoughts and opinions of others - especially perceived authority figures. That isn't often a sign of psychological maturity. Their minds are to learn, whereas we are to sort through that excess knowledge and reduce what isn't useful so as not to be too clouded. Children lack a lot of the clouding, but don't do these things with awareness and so we idealize them, as it seems naturally spontaneous; but, the very nature of maturity is the knowledge of options and/or that things can be different and that you have the power to enact those differences. Spontaneous wisdom is great, but few receive every step of the path in that fashion. Instead, wisdom/maturity is earned through time, example and experience.

 

In light of that, I also don't believe that enlightenment is an inherently biological process. During moments of ling, we all feel the shift in internal energies, and may even feel kundalini rising if we are on that path. So, while I do think it can be argued to be a socio-biological activity in a growing species that seeks to continue to understand and make peace with the world around it, there is nothing in us that forces spiritual enlightenment or psychological maturity. The latter is a by product of experience, which can be resisted and ignored by just about anyone who wishes to as we are lacking a physical imperative (hormonal most likely) toward making it happen, while the former is pure personal choice to utilize a metaphysical or philosophical spin in one's understanding an personal growth.

 

In terms of spiritual enlightenment and psychological maturity, I do think that as a person gets closer to one, they may often find themselves closer to the other, but just as a psychologically mature person isn't necessarily considered enlightened, I feel that while truly spiritually enlightened people may often be psychologically mature it's not a given.

[三江源]

~I like the Maslow list, I like Maslow, I first stumbled across him when I was 15 and it was a great intervention in my awareness to find someone making sense! What a relief! And what I notice about that list right now is that it is about balanced adaption and growth within ordinary awareness.

 

 

 

 

1. Realistic orientation

2. Acceptance of self, others, and the natural world

3. Spontaneity

4. Task orientation, rather than self-preooccupation

5. Sense of privacy

6. Independence

7. Vivid appreciativeness

8. Spirituality that is not necessarily religious in a formal sense.

9. Sense of identity with mankind

10. Feelings of intimacy with a few loved ones

11. Democratic values

12. Recognition of the difference between means and ends

13. Humor that is philosophical rather than hostile

14. Creativeness

15. Nonconformism

 

 

And I think now that enlightenment - much as chop wood carry water applies - includes a fundamental inclusion in permanent perception of what would be considered 'non ordinary reality'. I guess 8 could (and might not) include this.

[bodyoflight]

[bodyoflight]

~I like the Maslow list, I like Maslow, I first stumbled across him when I was 15 and it was a great intervention in my awareness to find someone making sense! What a relief! And what I notice about that list right now is that it is about balanced adaption and growth within ordinary awareness.

 

 

 

 

1. Realistic orientation

2. Acceptance of self, others, and the natural world

3. Spontaneity

4. Task orientation, rather than self-preooccupation

5. Sense of privacy

6. Independence

7. Vivid appreciativeness

8. Spirituality that is not necessarily religious in a formal sense.

9. Sense of identity with mankind

10. Feelings of intimacy with a few loved ones

11. Democratic values

12. Recognition of the difference between means and ends

13. Humor that is philosophical rather than hostile

14. Creativeness

15. Nonconformism

 

 

And I think now that enlightenment - much as chop wood carry water applies - includes a fundamental inclusion in permanent perception of what would be considered 'non ordinary reality'. I guess 8 could (and might not) include this.

 

the tao that can be explained is not the tao..

 

as it is your concept of enlightenment is pretty immature..

[bodyoflight]

Some points:

 

1) "Enlightenment means psychological maturity ?"

 

Definitely not . On the contrary , it is a reverse process of making your heart childlike, ten times more childlike than kids are ;but.. is it a process of purifying our heart as most people think , or as some Buddhist school( mainly Hinayana) advocates ? No, such kind of hair-splitting way of purifying our mind hardly makes us accomplish Enlightenment. In fact, we attain it " at a stroke", in an abrupt way so that our mind getting no chance of thinking of any pure or impure , good or evil,black or white..things

 

2) "Enlightenment is a biological process..."

 

Bullshit! People say that are still outside the door, not yet crossing the threshold .

 

3)Why " there are a lot of gurus who get caught up in scandals and sexual misconduct .."

 

These "guru" are still at the stage of " jing changing into qi" or don't know how to sublimate their evil "jing " into qi or shen , so they succumb to it. Of course, calling them " guru " is a joke

 

i concur on everything except point 3...

 

those "masters" have not mastered their human ego yet..

[Marblehead]

I will get back to it later. I have so much work to do today but it...in a nutshell for me...is an overwhelming feeling of gratitude for the life I live, my people, my environment, my world. I see a beautiful, shining wonder in every little thing.

 

Guru Mayi used to say something like this, "the light of scintillating Consciousness is present in everything, every particle."

 

I must say some of the Eastern terms I have read that describe enlightenment and such are terrifically incomprehensible to me.

 

s

 

Thanks for the reply. Yes, good start. Perhaps another thread for this when you have time?

[三江源]

the tao that can be explained is not the tao..

 

as it is your concept of enlightenment is pretty immature..

 

hi bodyoflight, it would be kind of you to elucidate so that my immaturity can be cast in light and so potentially transform.

[宁]

An immature enlightened master? Sounds pretty childish...

[Marblehead]

An immature enlightened master? Sounds pretty childish...

 

I had to laugh but that has a lot of substance to it if we consider it with an open mind. Yes, I think the Sage lets the child out to play whenever they can.

[宁]

I had to laugh but that has a lot of substance to it if we consider it with an open mind. Yes, I think the Sage lets the child out to play whenever they can.

 

In my view every stage in our life, be it childhood or teenage, or 2nd, 3rd, 4th teenage , has it's own benefits and experiences. If you enjoy them enough, you won't feel the need to go back to them.

This need to re-experience childhood, in my view, is a sign that something was left pending, in that time, some particular knot wasn't properly untied...

I feel human experience should feel the same to an old man, don't you think? Say, 'I had the best of everything, for good and for bad, let's move on! What's next?'

 

edit darn 'spells'

Edited May 5, 2011 by Little1

[exorcist_1699]

I call BS on your BS comment. Please explain.

 

s

 

Sorry, I only get half of what you mean ( to some people , my English appears okay, but it is really not ); anyway, I try to explain:

 

Enlightenment can't merely rely on our own strength to accomplish ,even if we view our spiritual force as something biological. In fact, what we always talk about, things such qi and jing , in Taoist context, are not things biological .

 

In Western terms,we can say Enlightenment is some kind of ontological breakthrough or change in our existence ( in this sense , existentialist typed of psychology seems a little more close to Buddhist /Taoist approach ) despite the fact that , in this heritage, nothing is provided to make such a breakthrough. There is always some kind of vacuum underlies our life , it is a crisis , also an opportunity ,to enable to make us to make a qualitative jump .. what we should do is not just to purify our mind, but more precisely , to hollow it...

Edited May 5, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[JohnC]

It seems to me there are a lot of different types of 'enlightenment.' Non-dual 'enlightenment' may be more in the psychological maturity area, while the kundalini awakening may not be.

 

When I practice Yi gong, it definitely encourages psychological maturity, in that I see that everything is in relation to my self. Not me, but how I feel... aka when I look to meet all those things, its because I want to feel a certain way and trying to control my environment to orchestrate what I want to feel, and avoid what I don't.

 

It seems it requires the correct focus though, as well as development of energy....

 

But what is 'enlightenment.'

 

John

[Jetsun]

define psychological maturity?

 

the major problem with humanity is that they think everyone must fit in with the group-think or the rebel would be cast out..

 

a spiritually enlightened person doesn't care two hoots about whether others think of him as being psychologically mature in the 3D lower dimensional sense of reality..

 

however, a spiritually unenlightened person whose human ego hasn't been transcended yet would worry about being "psychologically mature"

 

being psychologically mature is very different from psychologically stable..

 

what you are refering to i think is the state of being psychologically stable which has a major influence on the enlightenment process rather than the concept of maturity which differs according to the group, society or country which you belong in

 

I don't think emotional maturity is cultural based, it's more about becoming free from your childhood patterns and conflicts, many people even in the spiritual area as adult are still motivated by trying to get something they weren't given as children by their mother and father, which is often why people worship and become gurus. Most of the people on this board who seek siddhi powers are still playing unresolved power games left over from their childhood.

 

This thread "Spiritual Maturity" http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18274-spiritual-maturity/ says some good things on the subject and Bruce Frantzis teacher Liu often stresses the need to become emotionally mature:

 

"Even upon reaching the advanced stage of eighty, many human beings still live out the neuroses of their childhood. They still relive things that occurred to them when they were children or young adults. They never go beyond the basic programmed conditioning wired inside them from youth.

 

During the first level of Taoist water method meditation, people spend a long time learning to become what Taoists call "mature human beings", meaning individuals who can assume responsibility for themselves, who do not avoid consequences by ascribing their own motivations to others"

[Apech]

It seems to me there are a lot of different types of 'enlightenment.' Non-dual 'enlightenment' may be more in the psychological maturity area, while the kundalini awakening may not be.

 

 

 

John

 

I think this is the point. Some kinds of awakening could be termed biological or perhaps evolutionary in terms of consciousness. I'm not sure that I would call them enlightenment - but of course its all a matter of defining terms before we use them.

 

I still hold to something which you might call complete enlightenment which is beyond and yet encompasses both the transformed individual consciousness and the psycho-spiritual-emotional growth of the person. For me this is the Sage that LZ talks about.

 

PS. I think I understand vivid appreciativeness a bit better now ... but I still hate the list (sorry Cat and Shakti ). I am vividly unappreciative of it.

[bodyoflight]

hi bodyoflight, it would be kind of you to elucidate so that my immaturity can be cast in light and so potentially transform.

 

there is a thick psychic spiritual shield covering up the spiritual senses of the mundane person unless some UFOs/ETs/Higher beings lift the veils of these spiritual senses..

 

in the process of enlightenment, the main goal is to realize the true nature of the universe and in order to do that, one must cut through such thick psychic spiritual blindfolds..

 

the list of qualities in maslow's definition of maturity hardly applies when one is trying to reach enlightenment.. it is more appropriate as a guide on "how to become a normal member of society"..

 

if you are going to claim that maslow's definition is going to help you become enlightened, then you are very naive indeed..

 

however, i have heard some rumours that a lot of people who have lead normal boring lives according to Maslow's definitions of what is a normal member of society.. such normal members of society are having their spiritual senses opened up by ETs and other higher beings because they are needed in the current spiritual war right now..

 

such normal members of society are given a short-cut to realizing enlightenment because they are deemed "obedient" enough not to abuse their spiritual gifts for their own selfish ends..

 

so those true spiritual practitioners who realize that our entire 3D sense of reality is nothing but an illusion and who rejects the very notions that life is all only about sex, money and family...

 

those particular practitioners will have to go through the more arduous route of opening up one's spiritual senses on his own cos the ones in control think that such people who reject the world view are too immature and rebellious to handle such freebies ..

 

what a sad state of life we live in..

Edited May 5, 2011 by bodyoflight