Does Spiritual Enlightenment mean Psychological Maturity?

[ShaktiMama]

Sorry, I only get half of what you mean ( to some people , my English appears okay, but it is really not ); anyway, I try to explain:

 

Enlightenment can't merely rely on our own strength to accomplish ,even if we view our spiritual force as something biological. In fact, what we always talk about, things such qi and jing , in Taoist context, are not things biological .

 

In Western terms,we can say Enlightenment is some kind of ontological breakthrough or change in our existence ( in this sense , existentialist typed of psychology seems a little more close to Buddhist /Taoist approach ) despite the fact that , in this heritage, nothing is provided to make such a breakthrough. There is always some kind of vacuum underlies our life , it is a crisis , also an opportunity ,to enable to make us to make a qualitative jump .. what we should do is not just to purify our mind, but more precisely , to hollow it...

 

Here we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Qi and jing are very biological. One can see and feel the effects it has on our meat body.

 

I never said it was our own strength that accomplished enlightenment. I think the personality can be a hindrance. I think when the body gets involved in the enlightenment process, for example, using shaking to remove blocks and build chi, it quickly gets out of the control of the human intellect and becomes more biological, spontaneous, natural and the intellect becomes subservient to the body and the energy. Or it should because advancement in practice will be much quicker.

 

i think enlightenment can be mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual. It can be happening in all the bodies at the same time or just one of the bodies and not the others. It be happening at all different speeds with vary qualities of effectiveness.

[ShaktiMama]

character defects are based on spiritual forces and they can only be removed by spiritual forces..

 

people's definitions of spiritual forces will vary according to their ... realizations..

 

processes which work for many thousands of people in the past constitute the only scientific proof needed..

 

if other people have benefited and progressed by following certain processes and paths, then means those particular processes or paths are valid enough..

 

i think your understandings and realization are yours but they are not mine. I think generalizing this to mean for everyone is a bit premature.

 

it's like you are talking that subjective truth is the only truth or at least the only truth that matters. I could be misunderstanding you here and if I am I apologize.

[ShaktiMama]

 

I've met people who can describe brilliant socioeconomic theories replete with mechanisms for social justice and global sustainability... and they can't figure out how to pay the rent. They sound enlightened, but...

 

yes, people who follow a long educational path like an MD or PhD are often socially incapable of functioning in a mature way.

 

One of my friends thought he had it all figured it out. So he quit his job and went to sit on his couch and let "the Universe" take care of him. He was almost evicted while he waited to for this to happen. He's a smart guy who learned quickly that he has to take care of himself first and went out and got his job back. He is doing quite well today.

s

[ShaktiMama]

Personally, I still see enlightenment (as attainment) as a huge red herring. I see no usefulness, whatsoever, in that concept, but plenty of traps.

 

Even maturity is really just a reflection of my biases: the "mature" person is the one who appears the way I think a mature person should.

 

The word maturation literally means: a process of growing. So one person who has overcome debilitating personal trauma may have undergone incredible maturation, and still not appear the way the concept of "mature" implies. Whereas someone else may have learned to put on an incredible show of appearing to be mature, without having to ever really face adversity.

 

That's why (on another thread), I insist that there is no actual hierarchy of growth or awakening. Because everyone starts from a different place, and everyone has different things to wake up from. Nor will my first awakening be the same as yours, because my context is completely different.

 

The important thing, IMO, is to grow, not to be right.

 

 

hee hee..... enlightenment is another award or badge for most people to obtain so they don't have to behave in an enlightened manner. (whatever that is)

 

There actually are psychological hierarchies of growth and awakening theories. We use these scales/standards to measure mental health. we studied them to death in nursing school.

 

If we follow the awakening of the chakras from the base to the crown it can roughly follow Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Other theories of growth and development do mirror this chakra model of development. If you haven't read Eastern Body Western Mind by Anodea Judith I would check it out. She did take many models of psych development and tried to map them over the chakra model. It is a good book to start with.

[fiveelementtao]

I am confused by this thread... Asking the question, "Does Spiritual Enlightenment mean Psychological Maturity?" is like asking "Does eating involve chewing?"

 

Because according to all traditional teachings I have ever explored or practiced, the term enlightenment has only ever had one definition:

 

Enlightenment is nothing more or less than emotional and spiritual maturity.

 

You can't really have one without the other and I am confused as to how so many people on this forum think there is a difference. I suppose it has to do with all the attention being given to siddhis and side-effects of energy work. Perhaps it has to do with the average age of those on this forum...

 

The process of life lessons and maturation is ITSELF the process of enlightenment... Life is the meditation and meditation is the practice. meditation and energy work are merely tools that we use to help us learn life lessons and achieve enlightenment...

 

At least that is the viewpoint of traditional teachings as I have come to understand them...

[Guest sykkelpump]

hee hee..... enlightenment is another award or badge for most people to obtain so they don't have to behave in an enlightened manner. (whatever that is)

 

There actually are psychological hierarchies of growth and awakening theories. We use these scales/standards to measure mental health. we studied them to death in nursing school.

 

If we follow the awakening of the chakras from the base to the crown it can roughly follow Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Other theories of growth and development do mirror this chakra model of development. If you haven't read Eastern Body Western Mind by Anodea Judith I would check it out. She did take many models of psych development and tried to map them over the chakra model. It is a good book to start with.

 

You studied to death at nurse school? lol.If someone should read about enlightenment then maybe they should read it from an enlightened source like Master Nan huai chin.

[manitou]

Going back to the As A Child mindset for a minute, I'm not convinced that means the very same thing as letting the inner child out to play once in a while.

 

I hate to use my prior mindset as an example, but it's all I've got to work with. As an anal-thinking police person and Coast Guard reservist, there was nothing of the inner child in me at all. In fact, the survival instinct for a cop entails instant judgment; just opposite of what we aim for here. My cynicism, sarcasm, and distrust of anyone that wasn't another cop was palpable. I had become a master of going for the jugular before you could get to mine; this seemed to be the way it was.

 

Then booze kicked my butt and I had to get sober, this was 30 years ago. The getting sober process, which has entailed nothing but inner work, has kept me sober for this entire time. The result of the inner work is that I no longer look at things cynically; rather, I see the best in things rather than the worst in things; it was just a different choice of mindset, that's all. But an offset of this has been a type of return to innocence, at least in my thinking. I am aware of my thought patterns and when one creeps in that is undesirable for me, I can identify it. But it is the innocence that this develops that I think we're talking about when we're talking about returning to the mind of a child.

 

Not that it's being stupidly innocent and letting people get over on you, or being naive and taken for a sucker. It's just loving people for what they are. And letting them have the foibles they have, just loving the golden essence of them that is the same golden essense of you. It's also rediscovering my sense of humor, my Real sense of humor. The one that can get pretty silly at a moments notice. I never allowed this out before. But mainly....it's not being Afraid anymore, and trusting that the Universe is a friendly place. Knowing that it really does take care of us if we let it.

 

Yes, I think one has to go through the inner child to find the uncarved wood. After all, it was the child, our actual young selves, that got all twisted around, thanks to the beliefs and mores of others. I mean, it wasn't like we were equipped to evaluate the stuff that was handed down to us. What a strange system we're stuck with. The original uncarved wood gets all carved up by the seemingly good intentions of others. I've previously mentioned this line from "Hope Floats" with Sandra Bullock, but it seems appropriate again: "Childhood is the thing we spend the rest of our lives getting over."

[ShaktiMama]

I am confused by this thread... Asking the question, "Does Spiritual Enlightenment mean Psychological Maturity?" is like asking "Does eating involve chewing?"

 

Because according to all traditional teachings I have ever explored or practiced, the term enlightenment has only ever had one definition:

 

Enlightenment is nothing more or less than emotional and spiritual maturity.

 

You can't really have one without the other and I am confused as to how so many people on this forum think there is a difference. I suppose it has to do with all the attention being given to siddhis and side-effects of energy work. Perhaps it has to do with the average age of those on this forum...

 

The process of life lessons and maturation is ITSELF the process of enlightenment... Life is the meditation and meditation is the practice. meditation and energy work are merely tools that we use to help us learn life lessons and achieve enlightenment...

 

At least that is the viewpoint of traditional teachings as I have come to understand them...

 

 

Personally, I have said for years that enlightenment is a cultural myth. Am I right? Don't know.

 

I work with a lot of n00bs on the path. I have to start with the basics to start them questioning conventional wisdom.

[bodyoflight]

Hello Bodyoflight,

 

I would only ask that you prove this to be true. Give me concrete evidence and I will agree, but so far all you seem to be doing is speculating and making esoteric comments that have no actual basis on fact. Elsewhere I've provided enough actual evidence (imo) to prove that there is no correlation between "enlightenment" and psychological maturity. It's this illusion that perpetrates much of the suffering. We define sins, instill people with guilt, and then direct them as to how to behave to be free of this suffering, whether in this life or next. The fact of the matter is that most people that set themselves up as gurus and teachers are also people that desire a degree of control over others. They choose to exert this control by making lofty claims and then directing people as to how those goals can be achieved. They are using their position to satisfy some deeper need that resides within their ego, a need that is not cleansed from spiritual awareness. In many cases these people use their position as a way to misdirect people. "I am a priest/monk/guru, obviously I'm not a child molester/con-man/sociopath."

 

The people I trust most to teach me a spiritual path are those that are not seeking monetary compensation, do not tell me what to do, but rather share their own experience, and whose practice is defined by a higher virtue, rather than morality and ideology.

 

Aaron

 

A lot of teachers in here would be offended by your words.

 

Why any teachers share anything with you for free?

 

I am not seeking people who agree with me. I am seeking people who can tear my arguments apart with higher wisdom.

Edited May 6, 2011 by bodyoflight

[bodyoflight]

Everyone wants to be loved.In fact, according to Maslow, if our love and security needs are not met it is impossible to attain self actualization or what the East might categorizes as enlightenment.

 

That is far different than stable. I know what the medical definition of psych stable would entail. "Not a danger to self and others." that leaves a lot of room for crazy and instability.

 

This is because Maslow and everybody else is seeking love and security through external means and not seeking love and security through their own selves.

 

If you say that you need to seek love and security through others, that means you are hardly enlightened..

 

You are hardly enlightened..

 

Your definition of psychologically stability according to the medical definitions is still of an unenlightened standpoint..

 

My definition of psychologically stability includes spiritual causes of mental instability..

[bodyoflight]

so it can't be known intellectually is what you are saying...true?

 

so then it can be felt if not known? Can I experience the tao but I have not a shred of an idea how I can tell you about it?

 

define immaturity.... what do you base that on?

 

I don't define psychological maturity or psychological immaturity..

 

It is a waste of time and energy and it is a game of human definitions..

 

It is a game whereby humans define what is right or wrong and humans are certainly the last beings in the universe who can define wha's right or what's wrong..

 

I might be putting down people who's married, have kids, etc. etc. but that doesn't mean my viewpoints should apply to all people..

 

It is only the weak in here who's weak enough to be affected by words..

[bodyoflight]

the ego was a term coined by Sigmund Freud. There is no scientific proof for the ego but we all talk about it like it is proved and a done deal.

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm

 

this to me is a better story of what we are talking about.

 

then you have not realized that there is an animal ego within yourself yet..

 

Sigmund Freud and Maslow have written good stuff but they do not know everything..

 

why are you still basing your sense of reality on lesser works?

 

why do you life your life according to the expectations of others including really smart but still unenlightened people like Freud and Maslow?

Edited May 6, 2011 by bodyoflight

[bodyoflight]

yes, people who follow a long educational path like an MD or PhD are often socially incapable of functioning in a mature way.

 

One of my friends thought he had it all figured it out. So he quit his job and went to sit on his couch and let "the Universe" take care of him. He was almost evicted while he waited to for this to happen. He's a smart guy who learned quickly that he has to take care of himself first and went out and got his job back. He is doing quite well today.

s

 

Firstly, this is because your friend did not create the energies of prosperity in himself.

 

Secondly, what does it matter whether he is thrown out on the street or if he is doing well?

 

Aren't the beggar on the street and the millionaire one and the same thing?

 

I thought you guys are going around realizing that you are ... "ALL GOD?"..

[bodyoflight]

yes, people who follow a long educational path like an MD or PhD are often socially incapable of functioning in a mature way.

 

One of my friends thought he had it all figured it out. So he quit his job and went to sit on his couch and let "the Universe" take care of him. He was almost evicted while he waited to for this to happen. He's a smart guy who learned quickly that he has to take care of himself first and went out and got his job back. He is doing quite well today.

s

 

Firstly, this is because your friend did not create the energies of prosperity in himself.

 

Secondly, what does it matter whether he is thrown out on the street or if he is doing well?

 

Aren't the beggar on the street and the millionaire one and the same thing?

 

I thought you guys are going around realizing that you are ... "ALL GOD?"..

[ShaktiMama]

This is because Maslow and everybody else is seeking love and security through external means and not seeking love and security through their own selves.

 

If you say that you need to seek love and security through others, that means you are hardly enlightened..

 

You are hardly enlightened..

 

Your definition of psychologically stability according to the medical definitions is still of an unenlightened standpoint..

 

My definition of psychologically stability includes spiritual causes of mental instability..

 

 

I didn't say that nor either did he. Not everybody thinks like you say they do. The fact that you insist on your views as an absolute brings in questions about your own mental stability.

 

 

The self actualized person, which I am becoming to think thru this thread, may be at a place of higher attainment than the enlightened person. Not that it matters to anyone except to couchitarians. (People who sit on the couch and theorize about enlightment.)

 

I am not enlightened nor are you. I may be in the process but as we have pointed out on this forum before an enlightened person will not draw attention to the attainment of their enlightenment.

 

And the definition still stands for psych instability. Just because you say it is an unenlightened standpoint doesnt mean it is not.

 

All mental instability has a quality of spiritual unrest. That is not a new discovery.

[ShaktiMama]

I don't define psychological maturity or psychological immaturity..

 

It is a waste of time and energy and it is a game of human definitions..

 

It is a game whereby humans define what is right or wrong and humans are certainly the last beings in the universe who can define wha's right or what's wrong..

 

I might be putting down people who's married, have kids, etc. etc. but that doesn't mean my viewpoints should apply to all people..

 

It is only the weak in here who's weak enough to be affected by words..

 

 

so why did you ask me to define terms? Are you not accountable to the same standards as you hold the rest of us or are you special? It seems to me all your posts are about separating people into what is right or wrong.

 

You play word games. You are affected by words otherwise you would not make an issue of defending your position. But, you are not weak but we are?

Edited May 6, 2011 by ShaktiMama

[ShaktiMama]

then you have not realized that there is an animal ego within yourself yet..

 

Sigmund Freud and Maslow have written good stuff but they do not know everything..

 

why are you still basing your sense of reality on lesser works?

 

why do you life your life according to the expectations of others including really smart but still unenlightened people like Freud and Maslow?

 

 

I guess you misread my post. Ego is a term coined by Freud as a poetic conceit to help explain his theories. Yes they have written good stuff and they don't know everything. You have not given us any evidence of having a published body of scholarly reviewed work that shows any kind of intellectual rigor that proves you know something. We can not help but hold you to the same standards that you want to apply to others.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about me and the rest of the people on this list. I live my life according to what my heart and experience shows me. And why do you say they are unenlightened? what makes you an expert?

[ShaktiMama]

Firstly, this is because your friend did not create the energies of prosperity in himself.

 

Secondly, what does it matter whether he is thrown out on the street or if he is doing well?

 

Aren't the beggar on the street and the millionaire one and the same thing?

 

I thought you guys are going around realizing that you are ... "ALL GOD?"..

 

So what is this energies of prosperity you are talking about? If I told you that when he woke up from the couch one year later he was bringing in one million US dollars a year would you find some other way to find fault with him.

 

I cannot see what the connection is between ALL GOD and beggar and millionaire and how it is germane to what we are talking about.

 

 

non sequitur

[bodyoflight]

so why did you ask me to define terms? Are you not accountable to the same standards as you hold the rest of us or are you special? It seems to me all your posts are about separating people into what is right or wrong.

 

You play word games. You are affected by words otherwise you would not make an issue of defending your position. But, you are not weak but we are?

 

i am not weak enough to live my life according to the words of others including Maslow and Freud..

 

you are trying to define what is right or wrong according to the words of others notably Maslow and Freud..

 

i may be stating a lot of strong views in this forum but i don't even expect anyone to follow my views without improving on my views according to each individual circumstances..

 

you are blindly defining what's mature or not according to Maslow and Freud.. that makes you weak..

[bodyoflight]

I guess you misread my post. Ego is a term coined by Freud as a poetic conceit to help explain his theories. Yes they have written good stuff and they don't know everything. You have not given us any evidence of having a published body of scholarly reviewed work that shows any kind of intellectual rigor that proves you know something. We can not help but hold you to the same standards that you want to apply to others.

 

You make a lot of assumptions about me and the rest of the people on this list. I live my life according to what my heart and experience shows me. And why do you say they are unenlightened? what makes you an expert?

 

if you live your life according to what your heart and experience shows you and not others, then why are you still following the words coined by Freud and Maslow?

[bodyoflight]

So what is this energies of prosperity you are talking about? If I told you that when he woke up from the couch one year later he was bringing in one million US dollars a year would you find some other way to find fault with him.

 

I cannot see what the connection is between ALL GOD and beggar and millionaire and how it is germane to what we are talking about.

 

 

non sequitur

 

i cannot make a full diagnosis without talking to him face to face..

 

he might be making a million us dollars a year but what has he lost in the process?..

 

if you can't see the connection between all god and beggar and millionaire.. then you can't see the true nature of the universe..

Edited May 6, 2011 by bodyoflight

[ShaktiMama]

if you live your life according to what your heart and experience shows you and not others, then why are you still following the words coined by Freud and Maslow?

 

 

I don't understand why you think I am a follower with Freud and Maslow. It doesn't make any sense in context that you would think that. You lack some serious intellectual rigor here and for me to make a statement like that...

 

off to bed...busy day tomorrow.

[bodyoflight]

I didn't say that nor either did he. Not everybody thinks like you say they do. The fact that you insist on your views as an absolute brings in questions about your own mental stability.

 

 

The self actualized person, which I am becoming to think thru this thread, may be at a place of higher attainment than the enlightened person. Not that it matters to anyone except to couchitarians. (People who sit on the couch and theorize about enlightment.)

 

I am not enlightened nor are you. I may be in the process but as we have pointed out on this forum before an enlightened person will not draw attention to the attainment of their enlightenment.

 

And the definition still stands for psych instability. Just because you say it is an unenlightened standpoint doesnt mean it is not.

 

All mental instability has a quality of spiritual unrest. That is not a new discovery.

 

I insist on my own views because my views are applicable to my own individual circumstances..

 

unless someone can come up with higher views than mine to improve my own individual circumstances..

 

right now, it is natural that we disagree.. cos your own individual circumstances is different from mine..

[ShaktiMama]

i cannot make a full diagnosis without talking to him face to face..

 

he might be making a million us dollars a year but what has he lost in the process?..

 

if you can't see the connection between all god and beggar and millionaire.. then you can't see the true nature of the universe..

 

hahahahahahaha......

 

boy do you get pleasure out of playing mind f*ck games.

[Marblehead]

 

If you say that you need to seek love and security through others, that means you are hardly enlightened..

 

 

I'm not saying here that I khow what enlightenment is but I do agree with your first phrase here. Love and security have their roots inside each of us. Nothing from the outside can ever totally fulfill this need.

 

(I'm letting others disagree with you here. Hehehe. I'm just not in a disagreeable mood right now.)