ShaktiMama Posted May 7, 2011 Do you think the fully enlightened are able to maintain that mindset constantly throughout the day, particularly if they don't live in a monastery? I would guess the occasional humanness would creep in. aaaah....now there's the million dollar question. Does being human negate any possibility of becoming enlightened? That's why I like Maslow et al. Becoming self actualized is more about becoming fully human which has specific behaviors to measure ourselves by. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted May 7, 2011 Yes, the omniscience really does mean just that. ( groovy, eh.) Which is one of the things I was referring to long ago and far away, at the start of this thread! When I mentioned enlightenment for me including the non - ordinary, not just succcesful integration into ordinary reality. I could see every being in the universe, and hear their thoughts all at once and understood what they were thinking. Now that was an awesome siddhi. No, it was very temporary and sporadic. Have had bits of this, also. Glimpses of what an expanded open consciousness might actually be like, eh. Yowsers. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 7, 2011 You stop that!!! Hehehe. There is fullness in all forms! The Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery. Marbles, Hey ... it was a link to a bUddhist website. Vajrayana would say that 'all phenomena are pure beyond elaboration' is that good enough. The Manifest and the Mystery are 'not-two'. A. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 7, 2011 there was a period of of time when my kundalini was coursing through my body that I had momentary periods of omniscience: I could see every being in the universe, and hear their thoughts all at once and understood what they were thinking. Now that was an awesome siddhi. No, it was very temporary and sporadic. did that mean I was enlightened? probably, mostly like not because I was so poor then that I would have desires of picking winning lottery numbers during this time. my physical needs for food and shelter were certainly more at the forefront then that working for a lofty spiritual attainment. Probably an enlightened state Shaktimama - but real enlightenment is permanent in that the consciousness is not lost (I think). My previous comment was based on the fact that I know that Buddhists use the term omniscience in a specific and technical way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 7, 2011 Do you think the fully enlightened are able to maintain that mindset constantly throughout the day, particularly if they don't live in a monastery? I would guess the occasional humanness would creep in. And if they could, would they want to? As per hagar's lovely post in another thread, life has so much to offer. So much pain, pleasure, surprises, anticipation. All of it is a blessing, a gift. Would we trade all that for tranquility? I think there really is some element of truth to the Hindu view of life being a dance and an act - a beautiful symphony - that exists in between deaths. Tranquility is the ground substance upon which we are all dancing our dance. There will be ample time to dwell in tranquility - why not dance a little? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted May 7, 2011 And if they could, would they want to? As per hagar's lovely post in another thread, life has so much to offer. So much pain, pleasure, surprises, anticipation. All of it is a blessing, a gift. Would we trade all that for tranquility? I think there really is some element of truth to the Hindu view of life being a dance and an act - a beautiful symphony - that exists in between deaths. Tranquility is the ground substance upon which we are all dancing our dance. There will be ample time to dwell in tranquility - why not dance a little? I am glad you brought his up. It seems a very common misconception, that tranquility is somehow benumbing and that it precludes, for example, dancing. Again, an example of how our mind creates dualities where there are none. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 7, 2011 - but real enlightenment is permanent in that the consciousness is not lost (I think). And how would we know that? And to what degree? How would someone behave in that state? Like Ramana, Osho, Sailor Bob, Gurdjieff, Adyanshanti, Krshnamurti (K or UG?), Einstein, Watts? A homeless person sitting in the gutter with a smile on her face? If someone told us that they were in that state would we truly believe them? How to know? How to measure? Only one way - do the work ourselves. Day in, day out, live in awareness. See everything as if with the eyes of a newborn. Let go of all preconceptions and biases. Is that possible? Only one way to find out. Start now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted May 7, 2011 Marbles, Hey ... it was a link to a bUddhist website. Vajrayana would say that 'all phenomena are pure beyond elaboration' is that good enough. The Manifest and the Mystery are 'not-two'. A. Hehehe. I know you understand. I just had to bug you about your choice of words. And I agree - not two - different aspects of the same thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShaktiMama Posted May 7, 2011 Probably an enlightened state Shaktimama - but real enlightenment is permanent in that the consciousness is not lost (I think). My previous comment was based on the fact that I know that Buddhists use the term omniscience in a specific and technical way. sounds good to me. the interesting thing when that state happens, my physical body becomes paralyzed and can not move. So in the ordinary reality my body is vulnerable. The first time it happened to me I was riding in a high speed peformance car in the middle of the night. I was not the driver. It more scared the Shite out of me than anything because I felt so incredibly vulnerable. I had not long term perspective to put it in context because this was all sudden, new, and spontaneous. my consciousness wasn't lost, just an expanded infinite upgrade. the connection to my meat suit was lost. hmmm...more questions to ponder on the couch with the kittehs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 7, 2011 And how would we know that? And to what degree? How would someone behave in that state? Like Ramana, Osho, Sailor Bob, Gurdjieff, Adyanshanti, Krshnamurti (K or UG?), Einstein, Watts? A homeless person sitting in the gutter with a smile on her face? If someone told us that they were in that state would we truly believe them? How to know? How to measure? Only one way - do the work ourselves. Day in, day out, live in awareness. See everything as if with the eyes of a newborn. Let go of all preconceptions and biases. Is that possible? Only one way to find out. Start now. Hi Steve, I was basing my statement on the idea that enlightenment means consciousness knowing its own nature ... or similar words of your choice and that this is a permanent state. But I did say 'I Think' to show its just my view ... of course I'm not enlightened and so I am just talking about ideas about enlightenment ... as you say only one way to find out ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) Hi Steve, I was basing my statement on the idea that enlightenment means consciousness knowing its own nature ... or similar words of your choice and that this is a permanent state. But I did say 'I Think' to show its just my view ... of course I'm not enlightened and so I am just talking about ideas about enlightenment ... as you say only one way to find out ... I will only disagree with one thing you said - "of course I'm not enlightened" You'll have to convince me of that one... edit - PS - I didn't mean to imply that I disagree with your original point, just fleshing it out. This enlightenment stuff is way too stuffy and untouchable for my taste. It's not all that unapproachable and, IMO, not all that big a deal. One day God catches a glimpse of herself in the mirror and winks and giggles and next day, more laundry. Can we forget sometime and get bogged down with all the laundry? Why not? Does that make us less enlightened? Time to tear down these barriers between us and enlightenment. We're the ones that build them, after all. Let's wink at each other and dance more! Edited May 7, 2011 by steve f 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 7, 2011 sounds good to me. the interesting thing when that state happens, my physical body becomes paralyzed and can not move. So in the ordinary reality my body is vulnerable. The first time it happened to me I was riding in a high speed peformance car in the middle of the night. I was not the driver. It more scared the Shite out of me than anything because I felt so incredibly vulnerable. I had not long term perspective to put it in context because this was all sudden, new, and spontaneous. my consciousness wasn't lost, just an expanded infinite upgrade. the connection to my meat suit was lost. hmmm...more questions to ponder on the couch with the kittehs "Put Buddha in the driving seat" ... would make a great car sticker .... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 7, 2011 I will only disagree with one thing you said - "of course I'm not enlightened" You'll have to convince me of that one... Nothing easier ... if we met you'd know straight away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted May 7, 2011 Probably an enlightened state Shaktimama - but real enlightenment is permanent in that the consciousness is not lost (I think). My previous comment was based on the fact that I know that Buddhists use the term omniscience in a specific and technical way. In that higher consciousness you have no preferences, there is no good or bad, right or wrong, everything is united and whole. Take that consciousness into the market place full time and you probably wouldn't survive a week, you need dualistic ego to survive. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manitou Posted May 7, 2011 I don't know where I come in on the enlightenment scale either, but I do know that if I remember that I have a beautiful aura projecting love around me during the day, the awareness does stay. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted May 8, 2011 I think omniscience here is being used in a specific way to mean being able to see through to the reality behind all things. Specifically being able to see the emptiness of all forms. It is not omniscience in the sense of knowing everything such as who won the superbowl in 1976 or what is the capital of Estonia or whatever. Oh rats, now I wanna know the answers to both of those questions, dammit Oh wait, we have Google, phew :-) - Who won the superbowl in 1976: Pittsburgh Steelers 21. Loser: Dallas Cowboys 17. - Capital of Estonia: Tallinn Apech, are you referring to the actual "things" - as in the entity designated as "Pittsburgh Steelers" during that game or what we're saying about "things" ? Just because we say that team was the "Pittsburgh Steelers" in 1976, doesn't mean that's what they were prior, nor following that match. And don't get me started on the quality of the pitch (sorry, soccer reference) nor the weather, nor the supporters. Were they also part of the winning or the losing team? As a digression, I find it interesting that we have "fun" (and multi-millions) with "win-lose" team sports. Seems pretty silly to me. As does my post IMO, "Psychological Maturity" is a weird one. It seems to me to have a lot to do with social expectations as well. I'm not very sure, really. Reminds me of that article Cat linked to about religious precepts. So I guess somewhere there's a premise of what a "mature" person is in psychological terms. I wonder that now that we have neuroscience if that will change or if we'll just argue the social/moral premises from neurological observations (referring to "fun" Aussie vid in Non's depressing thread). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 8, 2011 In that higher consciousness you have no preferences, there is no good or bad, right or wrong, everything is united and whole. Take that consciousness into the market place full time and you probably wouldn't survive a week, you need dualistic ego to survive. I know what you mean but I don't quite agree. Its an intermediate stage to have higher and lower consciousnesses. Ultimately they are non-dual. The high mind and the ow mind are one. I mean this in a functional way as well as a pure way. The real master would be the best in the market place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 8, 2011 Oh rats, now I wanna know the answers to both of those questions, dammit Oh wait, we have Google, phew :-) - Who won the superbowl in 1976: Pittsburgh Steelers 21. Loser: Dallas Cowboys 17. - Capital of Estonia: Tallinn Apech, are you referring to the actual "things" - as in the entity designated as "Pittsburgh Steelers" during that game or what we're saying about "things" ? Just because we say that team was the "Pittsburgh Steelers" in 1976, doesn't mean that's what they were prior, nor following that match. And don't get me started on the quality of the pitch (sorry, soccer reference) nor the weather, nor the supporters. Were they also part of the winning or the losing team? As a digression, I find it interesting that we have "fun" (and multi-millions) with "win-lose" team sports. Seems pretty silly to me. As does my post IMO, "Psychological Maturity" is a weird one. It seems to me to have a lot to do with social expectations as well. I'm not very sure, really. Reminds me of that article Cat linked to about religious precepts. So I guess somewhere there's a premise of what a "mature" person is in psychological terms. I wonder that now that we have neuroscience if that will change or if we'll just argue the social/moral premises from neurological observations (referring to "fun" Aussie vid in Non's depressing thread). You Win. I think. Life is a game of two halves. In Estonia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted May 8, 2011 You Win. I think. Life is a game of two halves. In Estonia. Oh no! I didn't write all that to win silly I was genuinely interested. See, here's a dumba44 thing. If you profess to be "enlightened" then you don't get to ask any more dumba44 questions. I'd rather get to ask the questions Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 9, 2011 Nothing easier ... if we met you'd know straight away. Shiva, I recognize you!!! Hopefully, I'll be able to take you up on that challenge some day! Tudo bem! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
