[TTC Study] Chapter 37 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

Was that a joke or were you being serious?

 

I certainly don't believe that all translators have misunderstood the text! No, it was mostly a joke. The Chinese I wrote would translate something like "Ha, it's possible!"

 

But I leave room for doubt with anything. It is possible, even likely, that there are gaps or misunderstandings that have never been rectified, and I don't believe that any single translator has understood 100% of every layer of meaning in the text...

 

So, no, it was a joke, but at the same time I probably wouldn't be attempting my own translations if I didn't think there might be something else to find out, right?

[dust]

I've just ben busy doing other things. I'm still with you.

 

I like the "take care of". It implies non-interference. But then, I like the visualization of "wine and meat at the bedside of the sick and elderly".

 

But then, 'taking care of the sick and elderly' is a form of interference so there is just a little contradiction here.

 

Therefore, IMO, interference is ofttimes a positive thing because non-interference would result in unnecessary pain and suffering. (Made me think of Wu Wei.)

 

I hadn't noticed the contradiction, but you're right. Though I have no idea how much the author would have been thinking about the original pictoral meanings of the characters he was writing, I have been basing many choices on the assumption that there was at least a partial awareness of these meanings.

 

But regarding taking care of a sick or elderly person: if all we are doing is giving them just enough (food, drink, comfort) that they can feel slightly better, or perhaps even get better, is this not the kind of guiding non-interference that we're talking about in the chapter? Leave the body to heal itself, but give it just enough encouragement/assistance to be able to?

 

 

 

you seem to ignore these 2 negations.

 

Well..yes and no. Being that I was trying to ignore other translations and find my own meanings, this was tricky. And there seems to be disagreement over the original meaning of 勿, but one source says that it was originally a "pictograph of banners on a pole used to direct troops". So I've made the assumption (considering the alternative translation, "10,000 do not", wouldn't make much sense) that 勿 in this script meant 物.

 

Thought about in terms of banners directing troops, and these being the "10,000 things", this would fit with the theory that the GD was a collection of TTC chapters focusing on governance/the art of ruling more than the Dao itself.

[dust]

Regarding Henricks's translation

 

(taken from terebess)

 

[彳人亍]恒亡为也。 The Way constantly takes no action.
侯王能守之， Marquises and kings can maintain it,
而万勿（物）将自为， And the ten thousand things transform on their own.
为而欲作， Once they have transformed, should desires arise,
将贞（真）之以亡名之朴。 You must quell them using the nameless natural state [pu].
夫亦将智（知）足， You must also know when you have enough.
智（知）〈足〉以朿， Knowing [when you have enough], you will be tranquil,
万勿（物）将自定。 And the ten thousand things will be stable all on their own.

 

 

 

 

守 maintain -- in the script I don't see this character, but 支, rely on/lean on, which I think makes more sense, as how does one man think he could or should try to "maintain" the Dao? It maintains itself, all he need do is use it.

 

为 act/change -- this character is clearly written with a 心 heart particle, which according to my favourite source means "harmony"

 

贞 真 -- to me, it looks closer to 贞 (pure) in the script, but it could as easily be 真. Either way, I don't know why it's been translated as "quell" when 真 means "true" or "genuine"

 

朿 -- looks right to me, or close as anything else. It means "prick" or "thorn" so I don't know why it's been translated as "tranquil"

 

 

 

Though I must continue to admit my lack of expertise and training in this whole area compared to real university scholars, I'm finding more and more choices from Henricks & the Dartmouth conference which utterly confuse me...

[Marblehead]

... I don't believe that any single translator has understood 100% of every layer of meaning in the text...

I actually like Lin Yutang's translation but his was based on the Wang Bi so as a result I generally rely on Henricks' translation but then his is an intellectual translation and I doubt he has the knowledge of the historical culture to be able to qualify as the "best" translation.

 

And so we continue to discuss the chapters, on my part, after the fact of others doing their own translations.

[Marblehead]

But regarding taking care of a sick or elderly person: if all we are doing is giving them just enough (food, drink, comfort) that they can feel slightly better, or perhaps even get better, is this not the kind of guiding non-interference that we're talking about in the chapter? Leave the body to heal itself, but give it just enough encouragement/assistance to be able to?

True, I would not consider caring for those unable to care for themselves as interfering. This fits right in with one of the "Three Treasures" - Compassion.

 

But yes, just enough. As with nearly all things, moderation.

[Marblehead]

为 act/change -- this character is clearly written with a 心 heart particle, which according to my favourite source means "harmony"

This is the second time in just two days you have referred to "harmony". That is one of my favorite word/concepts when speaking of Yin/Yang (our moods).

[dust]

but then his is an intellectual translation and I doubt he has the knowledge of the historical culture to be able to qualify as the "best" translation.

 

And so we continue to discuss the chapters, on my part, after the fact of others doing their own translations.

 

I'm hoping that within the next few months, based off much nightly research and translation and with feedback from these discussions, I'll be able to put forward "my own" translation (though I wouldn't want to call it "my own").

 

Whether or not anyone else cares is another matter! But I hope that we might be shedding some kind of new light on the GD.

 

 

 

This is the second time in just two days you have referred to "harmony". That is one of my favorite word/concepts when speaking of Yin/Yang (our moods).

 

Yes, I like this word in the context of the chapter. "Change" is more than relevant, but the idea that "Life will take care of itself" or "Life will harmonize and do as it needs" seems quite fitting.

[Taoist Texts]

So I've made the assumption that 勿 in this script meant 物.

defo;)

[dawei]

守 maintain -- in the script I don't see this character, but 支, rely on/lean on, which I think makes more sense, as how does one man think he could or should try to "maintain" the Dao? It maintains itself, all he need do is use it.

 

Agree... it seems more likely to be 支

 

贞 真 -- to me, it looks closer to 贞 (pure) in the script, but it could as easily be 真. Either way, I don't know why it's been translated as "quell" when 真 means "true" or "genuine"

 

This probably comes from the 寘 as used by the Bei Da manuscript. Starting with Heshang Gong, 鎮 is used. Both has similar meaning to quell.

 

朿 -- looks right to me, or close as anything else. It means "prick" or "thorn" so I don't know why it's been translated as "tranquil"

 

Tranquil seems to come from 靜 which comes from the MWD-B and Bei Da manuscripts. Fu Yi used 靖.

 

Though I must continue to admit my lack of expertise and training in this whole area compared to real university scholars, I'm finding more and more choices from Henricks & the Dartmouth conference which utterly confuse me...

 

Agreed again

[dust]

This probably comes from the 寘 as used by the Bei Da manuscript. Starting with Heshang Gong, 鎮 is used. Both has similar meaning to quell.

 

I see.. one thing that is unclear is whether the GD was an early version of the MWD and the TTC in general, or just a different "edition" -- if the former, I don't think it unlikely that the original meaning was "真" or "贞" and that they changed it later on. If the latter, I don't think it unlikely that the GD writer simply "spelled" it wrong (there do seem to be many odd spellings, not least the 2 versions of 道)

 

 

Tranquil seems to come from 靜 which comes from the MWD-B and Bei Da manuscripts. Fu Yi used 靖.

 

The GD writer did use 静 in place of 争, so I guess 朿 in place of 静 might make sense, in an odd way..?

[Michael Sternbach]

To me, this is one of the greatest chapters.

 

I don't take the part about not having desires so seriously, here or anywhere else in the TTC. Desires are a natural and very necessary part of our existence. What such sentences mean (at least to me) is not to let your desires control you to the extent that you loose your peace of mind (aka connection to the Dao).

 

I read this as an early description of the way of doing things that has been called flow in modern psychology. It's also known in the martial arts.

 

I think I first consciously experienced this state in my teenage years after I had been reading the I Ching for the first time. I felt one with the world. It was during a holiday in Italy. I went to the beach afterwards together with my sister where we used to play table soccer. Normally, we were quite on equal grounding, but that morning she didn't stand the slightest chance. No goal remained unscored on my part... effortlessly!

 

This state is no different from Wu wei.

[dust]

Yeah, I've never really been able to get my head around this Buddhist idea of completely getting rid of desire. I think it's probably possible, but that, as you say, desires are natural -- without them we would cease to be "human" (whatever the definition of “human” is, desire is surely a part).

 

I think that these chapters realize that too, and that, as you say, it's about controlling desire and realising when enough is enough (chapter 46).

 

Actually, I think that (in the Guodian at least) need and desire seem almost interchangeable -- the character 欲 could be translated as either. The right-hand radical is 欠 (originally a pictograph of a mouth sucking in air -- lack of and need for something).

 

It's all suggesting that we must be aware of needs and recognize that everyone must eat, and enjoy it, but going much beyond the basics of food and health etc can lead to major problems..