[TTC Study] Chapter 37 of the Tao Teh Ching

[manitou]

Steve F - I just noticed your new avatar. Did you get into a bar fight while I was gone for a while?

[doc benway]

Steve F - I just noticed your new avatar. Did you get into a bar fight while I was gone for a while?

It does look like that!

My brother went through an artistic phase and did some copies and re-interpretations of some Francis Bacon works. I really liked this one so I use it sometimes for an avatar.

Thanks for noticing!

[manitou]

It does look like that!

My brother went through an artistic phase and did some copies and re-interpretations of some Francis Bacon works. I really liked this one so I use it sometimes for an avatar.

Thanks for noticing!

 

 

You're welcome, friend. Your brother is a pretty hot artist. That's an interesting concept, to seek inspiration and rework another artist's work.

[dawei]

I see a lot of variations offered, so here is one more:

 

The common principle of Dao is to not interfere

yet all things are engendered

If rulers and leaders could observe this

All things would change state on their own

If such change is on the verge of producing interference

I would subdue it by [engendering] nameless simplicity

And this would nourish less desire

Without this desire [to interfere], there is peace

And natural order prevails in the world

 

Notes:

I borrowed 'common' from tianshi's comment in the other thread's use of 'Chang' as commonplace.

 

I tend to see 'non-interference' and natural transformation as the main point. If this prevails then natural order prevails. Dao itself does not seek any result but lets all things transform and prevail on their own.

[stan herman]

That's actually a rather funny chapter for me. Your translation does no better for me. Sorry. Hehehe.

 

I think it is important that we have a few desires in life so that we can experience our emotions.

 

I Agree. No desires is when we is all done wif it all--around here anyway. Here's yet another take:

 

37. In the midst of action hides tranquility. Those who find it act without exertion, allowing their natures to select their choices and motions.

 

Leaders who know tranquility are not obsessed by maximum yields or compelled to self-righteous destinations. Setting aside the weighty burden of an ultimate goal they guide people more gracefully through both difficult and easy times, continuing without concluding.

 

Though it must be sought, tranquility can not be found by hunting. It eludes the hunter, until, of its own free will, it seeks out the one who awaits it.

[Marblehead]

I Agree. No desires is when we is all done wif it all--around here anyway. Here's yet another take:

 

37. In the midst of action hides tranquility. Those who find it act without exertion, allowing their natures to select their choices and motions.

 

Leaders who know tranquility are not obsessed by maximum yields or compelled to self-righteous destinations. Setting aside the weighty burden of an ultimate goal they guide people more gracefully through both difficult and easy times, continuing without concluding.

 

Though it must be sought, tranquility can not be found by hunting. It eludes the hunter, until, of its own free will, it seeks out the one who awaits it.

 

Funny how well this relates to the Wu Wei thread I just responded to.

[doc benway]

I Agree. No desires is when we is all done wif it all--around here anyway. Here's yet another take:

 

37. In the midst of action hides tranquility. Those who find it act without exertion, allowing their natures to select their choices and motions.

 

Leaders who know tranquility are not obsessed by maximum yields or compelled to self-righteous destinations. Setting aside the weighty burden of an ultimate goal they guide people more gracefully through both difficult and easy times, continuing without concluding.

 

Though it must be sought, tranquility can not be found by hunting. It eludes the hunter, until, of its own free will, it seeks out the one who awaits it.

I like that - thanks stan

[Nanashi]

[ion]

Without self, or nature

The itlessness of it has never done one single thing.

Yet the virtue it expresses

completes every last thing.

If, free from from illusion, one were to wield its virtue,

all disorder would rearrange into order

seeming all by itself.

Organized to perfection,

yet still desiring more-

Restraining for more is contentment with simplicity.

Contentment with simplicity

Is dwelling with the sourceless.

Dwelling with the sourceless is sitting in stillness.

Sitting in stillness,

everything will free itself.

[Marblehead]

I think that one still needs more work.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Marblehead

[ion]

So does your post it points at nothing but you. Why not be productive Marble?How does it need more work? Nothing I post is a final copy, spontaneous I dont doubt that it needs work but for you to say so implies that you see where it does so what do you see.

[Marblehead]

So does your post it points at nothing but you. Why not be productive Marble?How does it need more work? Nothing I post is a final copy, spontaneous I dont doubt that it needs work but for you to say so implies that you see where it does so what do you see.

Now really, you don't want me to be telling you how it should read. That would be lame of me. What I would do would be to quote Henricks' translation and suggest that it reads more like his.

 

I was trying to be productive by suggesting that you look at it again. But I didn't want to start pointing out things that I think are improperly expressed in it.

 

Okay, Here are a couple:

 

Line 1. Without nature is Tao?

 

Line 2. itlessness? Too confusing a word.

 

Line 10. Does not support what is said in Lines 8 & 9.

 

Line 12. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Lines 13 - 15. I know you were building on Line 12 here but as I stated, to me, Line 12 makes no sense.

 

 

Now, I do commend you for taking the time to do your own translation. I'm sure that all who do gain a better understanding of the TTC. But still, when one strays too far from generally accepted translations the reader will gain nothing from it and the translator may be forming misunderstandings of the concepts presented within the Chapter.

[ion]

I see what you pointed out now but it would've been difficult without you being exploicit. Thank you for your input

 

Line 1-"without nature is Tao?" yes it should read more like this "Without self, or nature the itlessness of it..." which goes into the second line, but I can see the confusion. Also as to what you said about the term "ïtlessness" being too confusing...Im not going to disagree with you on that but will argue that although confusing, it may be equally illuminating as to the non-existence off its existence and the unknowable aspect to its being.

 

The rest of the things might just be punctuation and how I structured the over all thing. line 12 which you said does not make sense should read with line 11 like this-

 

Contentment with simplicityiIs dwelling with the sourceless.

and then as you pointed out working off of that the following lines are that dwelling with the sourceless is sitting in stillness, and that by sitting in stillness can smooth everything out as 1 continuing and developing thought

Line 8,9,10 can be rectified. I can definitely see the confusion but I did not earlier should read more like -

"Organized to perfection, yet peoplel desire more...

Successfully restraining fthe desire for more is caving contentment with simplicity."

So if it were restructured as

 

 

Without self, or nature the itlessness of it has never done one single thing.

Yet the virtue it expresses completes every last thing.

If, free from from illusion, one were to wield its virtue,

all disorder would rearrange into order seemingly all by itself.

Organized to perfection, yet people still desire more-

Restraining the desire for more is having contentment with simplicity.

Contentment with simplicity is dwelling with the sourceless.

Dwelling with the sourceless is sitting in stillness.

Sitting in stillness,

everything will free itself.

 

Is that a little more palatable? I appreciate your input Marblehead. If I didn't know Tao less explicit may have been better, but since it is grammar, syntax and sentence structure that I know less, having it pointed directly at is helpfull. I do not have a education so to speek and my spelling punctuation and general structure often show that, but I am bright enough to understand things when they're shown to me.

[Marblehead]

Yes, that is better and much smoother.

 

Literal translations of Chinese into English is mosttimes inefficient because the original concepts are lost in translations. More efficient is to transliterate. That means adding words that aren't really there because in the Chinese they were understood to be there and therefore were unspoken.

 

Then too, one must be cautious so that the original concepts are not altered as a result of trying to construct a grammatically correct English sentence.

 

As I have said a number of times before, I don't read Chinese and admire anyone who takes the time to learn it well enough to translate anything. But when I read something I feel it should be logical and make sense.

 

 

Anyhow, the concepts presented in this chapter as I understand it are:

 

Tao is nameless.

 

If the nature of Tao is followed things will be what they are naturally.

 

When desires arise they should be subdued.

 

If things and people are not disgraced they will be tranquil. (This was the point I was making in that other thread about being humiliated.)

 

When all is tranquil Earth and the Heavens will be at peace.

 

 

 

I've enjoyed our exchange. I hope you can say the same.

[dust]

when one strays too far from generally accepted translations the reader will gain nothing from it and the translator may be forming misunderstandings of the concepts presented within the Chapter.

 

This may often be true -- the famous translators are famous for a reason (hopefully because they are the best) -- but at the same time I believe that sticking close to tradition and not questioning accepted ideas in any realm of life is almost always bad.

 

You will probably find me disagreeing with much of the consensus on each chapter, partly because I think that everything should be questioned, and partly because I truly believe that many translators have simply misunderstood -- partly because they themselves weren't questioning enough.

[Marblehead]

but at the same time I believe that sticking close to tradition and not questioning accepted ideas in any realm of life is almost always bad.

I do agree with you in this regard. However, as I have stated, I do not read Chinese so all I can go by is what others have done and my own intuition and logic.

 

My disagreements are generally for the purpose of causing additional thought. As I can't read Chinese I have no place saying what is "right" or "wrong".

[Taoist Texts]

many translators have simply misunderstood

all of them actually.

[ion]

Yes I did enjoy our exchange too Marble head

[dust]

all of them actually.

 

有可能哈

[dust]

衜恆亡爲也 The Way is effortless;

侯王能支之 A ruler can lean on it,

而萬勿將自爲爲而欲作 And life will take care of itself;

將貞之以亡名之樸 Preserve purity with an unnamed piece of wood;

夫亦將智 If a man knows this,

智足以朿萬勿將自定 He knows enough to make life steady itself

 

 

爲 -- not this, but this: http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/yitic/frc/frc03775.htm -- meaning "harmony"

 

將 -- appearing 4 times, this originally meant "to serve wine and meat at the bedside of the sick or elderly", then "assist", then "command", and so on. Considering in the GD the character is written with the original wine jar radical 酉, does it mean "take care of", "assist", or "preserve" ?

 

edit: note this is GD, considered separately from the other versions

Edited September 19, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

dawei, marblehead... anyone else still paying attention.. it's not a traditional interpretation, and you're probably getting tired of these! but I hope you'll let me know what your thoughts are..

[Marblehead]

有可能哈

Was that a joke or were you being serious?

[Marblehead]

dawei, marblehead... anyone else still paying attention.. it's not a traditional interpretation, and you're probably getting tired of these! but I hope you'll let me know what your thoughts are..

 

I've just ben busy doing other things. I'm still with you.

 

I like the "take care of". It implies non-interference. But then, I like the visualization of "wine and meat at the bedside of the sick and elderly".

 

But then, 'taking care of the sick and elderly' is a form of interference so there is just a little contradiction here.

 

Therefore, IMO, interference is ofttimes a positive thing because non-interference would result in unnecessary pain and suffering. (Made me think of Wu Wei.)

[Taoist Texts]

衜恆亡爲也 The Way is effortless;

侯王能支之 A ruler can lean on it,

而萬勿將自爲爲而欲作 And life will take care of itself;

將貞之以亡名之樸 Preserve purity with an unnamed piece of wood;

夫亦將智 If a man knows this,

智足以朿萬勿將自定 He knows enough to make life steady itself

you seem to ignore these 2 negations.

[Marblehead]

Here's how Henricks dealt with it:

 

 

(A:7) Chapter 37

1 The Way constantly takes no action.
---------------
2 Marquises and kings can maintain it,
3 And the ten thousand things transform on their own.

4 Once they have transformed, should desires arise,
5 You must quell them using the nameless natural state [pu].
6 You must also know when you have enough.
7 Knowing [when you have enough], you will be tranquil,
8 And the ten thousand things will be stable all on their own.