Simplicity and Effectiveness of a Form

[Simplicity Rules]

Having done a few forms of Qigong, I often wonder about the relationship between simplicity and effectiveness of a form. For example, Chilel/Zhineng Qigong is often considered very powerful in China and is not easy or too simple with multiple levels and many exercises. Falun Gong was not necessarily easy to learn either, as it was my first every Qigong form. Over the years, I have done Fragrance Qigong and Spring Forest Qigong, which are really simple but seem to be a lot more effective than these more complex form.

 

So, does complexity of a form always mean it is beneficial on a deeper level? Are there really simple forms that people here have benefited from as opposed to more complex/hierarchical systems? What is the point in doing these complex forms like Chilel or Flying Phoenix if simpler forms such as Spring Forest or Fragrance Qigong give same or greater benefit? Is complex always better?

Edited May 10, 2011 by Simplicity Rules

[doc benway]

When it comes to martial arts, no question - simple is better.

WIth Qigong, I don't think there is anything inherently more effective in a more complex form or system.

On the other hand, there are some combinations of movement and breath that provide benefits that are difficult to reduce to simple patterns.

Certainly, a simpler Qigong set will be easier to perform in a properly relaxed, balanced, and aware fashion.

In this sense, simpler is better in Qigong for most practitioners.

For the more dedicated student, there are complex exercises that will achieve results that simpler forms can't reproduce.

One experience I've had with this is in the Shiba Luohan Qigong - relatively complex and physically demanding.

Nevertheless, I can't say there is any set I prefer to the Eight Brocades and that is somewhere between easy and moderately difficult (at least the variation I pratice).

Edited May 10, 2011 by steve f

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well it all depends on what the forms do.

 

Some forms are actually designed to target specific energy pathways in the body, and to do different things with them. There are lots of energy pathways in the body, so you can imagine the number of forms there.

 

Some are designed to move the physical body in a certain way.

 

Others may target specific parts of the body (energy centers, organs, etc) to bring out certain emotions to work on them.

 

Now the externally simple ones may work on things energetically which might not be impacted too much by physical movement. So things like the microcosmic orbit, which can be done sitting still with intent alone.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say what I think of each and every form. Because I don't know them all, nor have I done them all. I WILL say, however, that some forms can get pretty damn specific, and some of these things are thought out in minute detail to target incredible specific parts of the body. So for things like that, you either know it or you don't. And I don't think every form or every teacher teaching every form out there necessarily know those things.

[Simplicity Rules]

Well it all depends on what the forms do.

 

....

 

I know such general stuff, I was looking for a more experiential response. I totally understand what you said, having done 20 years of such practice. But thanks anyway!

 

Looking forward to hear from others who probably got my question.

[Simplicity Rules]

When it comes to martial arts, no question - simple is better.

WIth Qigong, I don't think there is anything inherently more effective in a more complex form or system.

On the other hand, there are some combinations of movement and breath that provide benefits that are difficult to reduce to simple patterns.

Certainly, a simpler Qigong set will be easier to perform in a properly relaxed, balanced, and aware fashion.

In this sense, simpler is better in Qigong for most practitioners.

For the more dedicated student, there are complex exercises that will achieve results that simpler forms can't reproduce.

One experience I've had with this is in the Shiba Luohan Qigong - relatively complex and physically demanding.

Nevertheless, I can't say there is any set I prefer to the Eight Brocades and that is somewhere between easy and moderately difficult (at least the variation I pratice).

 

 

Thanks Steve! Your response resonates with me.

 

The reason I ask is this. Last year, I met with the grand nephew of Tian Ruisheng, the founder of Xiang Gong or Fragrance Chi gong. He mentioned that this form was very effective in opening channels and getting Chi moving and opening eight different orbits including micro and macro and did much better than many other forms. This guy teaches about twenty forms of Qigong and Taiji and told me this was his unbiased evaluation. While talking to him, he also mentioned that most other popular forms in China, while being complex and all that, did little compared to a simple form as Xiang Gong.

 

Chunyi Lin states something similar. According to him, his form is the distillation of various other more complex forms but generating equal or greater benefit with less effort and greater simplicity.

 

We are generally told x and y form does this and that but till one actually evaluates them against a simpler form, how does one know? I have done Zhan Zhuang, Flying Phoenix, Zhineng/Chilel, Nine dragon Bagua, Iching Gong and several other forms but was astounded when I first tried Spring Forest Qigong - it seemed to generate a lot of chi with little effort, got my orbits running and seemed more wholesome in many ways. This is the reason I asked the question about simplicity vs effectiveness.

 

As a side, long ago, I studied for a very brief period with Nan Huai-chin, who teaches Anapana as the chief practice. He somewhat debunks Qigong, so I asked him, if one were to do Anapana/Stillness practice alone, how would one circulate chi without any dynamic meditation such as Qigong? His reply was - stillness has movement within itself. If you still need to do something, exercise, walk, run, swim or cycle. There would be no added need for a specific Qigong form. I did not follow his advice completely and still do Qigong forms but sometimes I wonder if stillness meditation and just some physical exercise will give as much benefit as any qigong form.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Simplicity Rules

[doc benway]

Thanks Steve! Your response resonates with me.

 

The reason I ask is this. Last year, I met with the grand nephew of Tian Ruisheng, the founder of Xiang Gong or Fragrance Chi gong. He mentioned that this form was very effective in opening channels and getting Chi moving and opening eight different orbits including micro and macro and did much better than many other forms. This guy teaches about twenty forms of Qigong and Taiji and told me this was his unbiased evaluation. While talking to him, he also mentioned that most other popular forms in China, while being complex and all that, did little compared to a simple form as Xiang Gong.

 

Chunyi Lin states something similar. According to him, his form is the distillation of various other more complex forms but generating equal or greater benefit with less effort and greater simplicity.

 

We are generally told x and y form does this and that but till one actually evaluates them against a simpler form, how does one know? I have done Zhan Zhuang, Flying Phoenix, Zhineng/Chilel, Nine dragon Bagua, Iching Gong and several other forms but was astounded when I first tried Spring Forest Qigong - it seemed to generate a lot of chi with little effort, got my orbits running and seemed more wholesome in many ways. This is the reason I asked the question about simplicity vs effectiveness.

I tend to believe that much of what we experience doing this stuff is unique to us as individuals so to say that one particular form is "more effective at xyz" is probably a meaningless statement. I'm especially skeptical when such a claim comes from a lineage holder or relative of the founder, etc... I personally believe a lot of what we experience is also generated by our expectations and preconceptions so what we feel is influenced by how credible we feel the system of form is. It's a slippery slope.

Nevertheless, all things being equal, I think most people get more benefit from simpler forms.

[thelerner]

Maybe. I certainly enjoy the Pangu form which is super simple.

[Guest sykkelpump]

Thanks Steve! Your response resonates with me.

 

The reason I ask is this. Last year, I met with the grand nephew of Tian Ruisheng, the founder of Xiang Gong or Fragrance Chi gong. He mentioned that this form was very effective in opening channels and getting Chi moving and opening eight different orbits including micro and macro and did much better than many other forms. This guy teaches about twenty forms of Qigong and Taiji and told me this was his unbiased evaluation. While talking to him, he also mentioned that most other popular forms in China, while being complex and all that, did little compared to a simple form as Xiang Gong.

 

Chunyi Lin states something similar. According to him, his form is the distillation of various other more complex forms but generating equal or greater benefit with less effort and greater simplicity.

 

We are generally told x and y form does this and that but till one actually evaluates them against a simpler form, how does one know? I have done Zhan Zhuang, Flying Phoenix, Zhineng/Chilel, Nine dragon Bagua, Iching Gong and several other forms but was astounded when I first tried Spring Forest Qigong - it seemed to generate a lot of chi with little effort, got my orbits running and seemed more wholesome in many ways. This is the reason I asked the question about simplicity vs effectiveness.

 

As a side, long ago, I studied for a very brief period with Nan Huai-chin, who teaches Anapana as the chief practice. He somewhat debunks Qigong, so I asked him, if one were to do Anapana/Stillness practice alone, how would one circulate chi without any dynamic meditation such as Qigong? His reply was - stillness has movement within itself. If you still need to do something, exercise, walk, run, swim or cycle. There would be no added need for a specific Qigong form. I did not follow his advice completely and still do Qigong forms but sometimes I wonder if stillness meditation and just some physical exercise will give as much benefit as any qigong form.

 

funny you didnt take the advice from one of the few recognized living enlightened masters.Instead you ask for advice here .I have tried many of the same qi gong method as you,but it didnt help me much.I was very sick.my nervous system was almost collapsing.I had to lie down to breath,doctors didnt find anything.But through qi gong I felt that my spine was completly blocked,lots of pain and pressure trying to move but it was to stuck.qi gong couldnt help,not enough force.Meditation however worked and slovly began to open my nervous system.The energy you fill the body with in meditation will create a "pressure" that gives more force to the natural chi circulation.Qi gong is low level compared I have personally felt how my channels work and what works for opening them.I also liked spring forest qi gong.But I had absolutely best results with falun gong.I also tried chi lel,zhan zhuang,kunlun,mantak chia,winn and some others.Another thing you have to consider is: would spring forest give you the same effects if that was the first qi gong you tried.or was it the foundation you had from doing lots of qi gong before that maked it so effective.If you tried all the qi gong methods in another order you might have another favourite qi gong.Like for example I was doing lots of mantra meditation(very good for activating the nervous system) and then tried spring forest qi gong(second time).My mco opened right away.I stopped mantra meditation,continue spring forest qi gong.but after a few weeks there was no moore progress.At first seemed to me that spring forest qi gong was so good.But the fact was that the meditation had made the foundation and the mco was about to open naturally when I lead it open with movements.That was many years ago,now i only do meditation and trains mma.dont need any forms.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Guest sykkelpump]

Friend,you said:

Meditation is a form too, taking alone you can meditate in all posture, while playing Tai Chi Chuan or eating your food.

 

 

I wonder have you ever done meditation?

tell me how do you eat or do tai chi when you are in deep meditation or samadhi?

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Guest sykkelpump]

I know the problem you are refering.

The problem is the absorbtion of meditation and what is seen as meditation.

Since there are different forms of meditation states.

One of simple states one can get in is the trance where you forget what is around you, it is to sleep and not sleep. Then you have the "thought flow"

a strange one a endless flow like dreaming and you are thinking a lot as it seems

but when you try to think and memorize you fall and forget. Then you have a more nicer state that you know that you body sleep and you mind is awake and aware that you sleep. And a state where you know you exist but forget everything? When you refering to these states then well-deep meditation?

 

Bravo one can concentrate in the here and yet only when one sitting around like a chicken and like a chicken they are chicken when they move again. This is I think why there are no story about enlightend Chicken in the past.

 

I hope you heard the story by Drunvalo Melchisedek about he telling that the indish masters are refering almost every human as sleeping and while middle american tribe refering as dead.

 

The idea in both is to be not "aware". In meditation you are. But since most can not move and again fall back to what they are in the "awaken" state (a joke a sleeping state call awaken), they can not act. This why it is teached to be alert and in the YET and NOW and not daydreaming and thinking. The mind should be still, concious

and concentrated.

 

A example is Stephen Turoff for active Meditation - who he is? Psychic Surgeon,a student from Satya Sai Baba. He is the one where the idea to hold the state between two thoughts to connect to the whole ocean the powerof god. Stephen Turoff is said to have brain function like a coma patient.

And well he runs around, speak with you and heal. It is the same mystery to solve

as to meditate while we can command our body to act in the world.

You see that is why Tai Chi Chuan is seen as meditation in motion, aware in every motion.

 

Chaoyi Fanhuan Qigong , Yap Soon Yeong has the view point that thinking is limiting.

And the first Foundation is Mind and Body Reconnection. He speak the mind as the bandit as he say: "You can not use your thought to become present. Creating thought take away and makes you absent, no matter of what kind of thoughts you create"

 

Well even Paul Dong in CHINA'S SUPER PSYCHICS teaches so to open the third eye

(I am not correctly remembering if he call it so) by using a form of

MCO. Still they start with mco it the rest is done by still sitting and not thinking.

So the MCO is like giving an command what one want, this is then done

by it by not thinking and doing anything after.

 

People forget a little thing after their Tai Chi Form is Stand around in Wu Chi after the closing.

Even the Hsin Tao Practioner and the Five Tibetian Rites do something:

The lay down between the exercises- also not thinking.

 

Else why people ask in the Forum if Qigong Forms are not interfere with other forms and how long one should wait until doing a practise and all security of wait

until eating, bathing etc and closing. What the Form creates will last like the ripples of a water when you touch it.

 

Q

impressing that you write all this without answering my question.I see you have read some books.well you can call anything meditation i guess.but unless you are sitting still with an empty mind to the point that body and mind seems to dissapear your energy channels wont open.and thats the whole point of meditation.

[Friend]

impressing that you write all this without answering my question.I see you have read some books.well you can call anything meditation i guess.but unless you are sitting still with an empty mind to the point that body and mind seems to dissapear your energy channels wont open.and thats the whole point of meditation.

 

Sykkelpump you are not the only one who was disable in a bed,

from reading alone one can no get of misere of staying there.

 

wonder have you ever done meditation? Yes

tell me how do you eat or do tai chi when you are in deep meditation or samadhi?

Wrong concept you do eat or do Tai Chi to go to into deep meditation or samadhi and stay cabable to act.

 

Q

[Guest sykkelpump]

Sykkelpump you are not the only one who was disable in a bed,

from reading alone one can no get of misere of staying there.

 

wonder have you ever done meditation? Yes

tell me how do you eat or do tai chi when you are in deep meditation or samadhi?

Wrong concept you do eat or do Tai Chi to go to into deep meditation or samadhi and stay cabable to act.

 

Q

LOL,funny man.good luck trying to eat yourself into samadhi,or to enter samadhi with tai chi.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Guest sykkelpump]

It is difficult,never said that it is easy.

Try to see it as an extra option and opportunity- nothing more.

 

Q

 

To reach a deep samadhi where body and mind seems to dissepear is not poissible to do while eating or moving.I hope for your sake that you understand that

Edited May 12, 2011 by sykkelpump

[Maddie]

I've done somewhat of an experiment lately, and have only done 8 Brocades as far as forms go, and no other physical exersices. I have noticed that my muscle tone has actually improved, and my stamina has remained equal, I get sick less often, and don't feel sore, tired, and worn out like I did from regular excercise.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Guest sykkelpump]

It is fun to argue with you

 

I understand it if you had written :

To reach a deep samadhi where body and mind seems to dissepear is for the most people not poissible to do while eating or moving.

 

"not possible" - well how about "not believe to be possible"

 

Q

Its good to know you are just arguing and that you just pretend to understand as little as you do

yes it is fun

Edited May 13, 2011 by sykkelpump

[doc benway]

I've done somewhat of an experiment lately, and have only done 8 Brocades as far as forms go, and no other physical exersices. I have noticed that my muscle tone has actually improved, and my stamina has remained equal, I get sick less often, and don't feel sore, tired, and worn out like I did from regular excercise.

I've been terribly impressed with the value of 8 Brocades. I don't know if we do similar variations but there is enormous physical benefit from the practice.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[zerostao]

wu chi is simple and effective but i dont want it as my only practice.

i think there needs to be a balance with the forms and meditation time.

[lessdaomorebum]

 

 

The reason I ask is this. Last year, I met with the grand nephew of Tian Ruisheng, the founder of Xiang Gong or Fragrance Chi gong. He mentioned that this form was very effective in opening channels and getting Chi moving and opening eight different orbits including micro and macro and did much better than many other forms. This guy teaches about twenty forms of Qigong and Taiji and told me this was his unbiased evaluation. While talking to him, he also mentioned that most other popular forms in China, while being complex and all that, did little compared to a simple form as Xiang Gong.

 

 

As a side, long ago, I studied for a very brief period with Nan Huai-chin, who teaches Anapana as the chief practice. He somewhat debunks Qigong, so I asked him, if one were to do Anapana/Stillness practice alone, how would one circulate chi without any dynamic meditation such as Qigong? His reply was - stillness has movement within itself. If you still need to do something, exercise, walk, run, swim or cycle. There would be no added need for a specific Qigong form. I did not follow his advice completely and still do Qigong forms but sometimes I wonder if stillness meditation and just some physical exercise will give as much benefit as any qigong form.

The grand nephew of the founder gave you his unbiased opinion? That seems a little difficult, doesn't it?

 

If it's more effective, why does he teach all those other systems?

 

You said he teaches twenty different systems. The founder said if you do Xiang Gong, you can not do other systems as the qilu (氣路) is different from other systems. Maybe you could ask the grand nephew about that?

 

 

I don't know anything about Anapana, but many qigong teachers think of zhanzhuang as the most important exercise for chee development. They say the problem is that most people don't want to just stand there. Also, they say chee gong facilitates the flow of qi to various places. I have no opinion.

Edited July 27, 2016 by lessdaomorebum