[TTC Study] Chapter 38 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 38

 

 

John Wu

 

High Virtue is non-virtuous;

Therefore it has Virtue.

Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

Therefore it has no Virtue.

High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends to serve:

Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

High morality not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

High ceremony fusses but finds no response;

Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.

Now, ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;

It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

As to foreknowledge, it is only the flower of Tao,

And the beginning of folly.

Therefore, the full-grown man sets his heart upon

the substance rather than the husk;

Upon the fruit rather than the flower.

Truly, he prefers what is within to what is without.

 

 

 

English/Feng

 

A truly good man is not aware of his goodness,

And is therefore good.

A foolish man tries to be good,

And is therefore not good.

A truly good man does nothing,

Yet leaves nothing undone.

A foolish man is always doing,

Yet much remains to be done.

When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.

When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.

When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,

He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order.

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.

When goodness is lost, there is kindness.

When kindness is lost, there is justice.

When justice is lost, there is ritual.

Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.

Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao.

It is the beginning of folly.

Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real and not what is on the surface,

On the fruit and not the flower.

Therefore accept the one and reject the other.

 

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

The highest virtue is not virtuous; therefore it truly has virtue.

The lowest virtue never loses sight of its virtue; therefore it has no true virtue.

The highest virtue takes no action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

The highest humanity takes action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

The highest righteousness takes action, and it has its reason for acting this way;

The highest propriety takes action, and when no one responds to it,

then it angrily rolls up its sleeves and forces people to comply.

Therefore, when the Way is lost, only then do we have virtue;

When virtue is lost, only then do we have humanity;

When humanity is lost, only then do we have righteousness;

And when righteousness is lost, only then do we have propriety.

As for propriety, it's but the thin edge of loyalty and sincerity, and the beginning of disorder.

And foreknowledge is but the flower of the Way, and the beginning of stupidity.

Therefore the Great Man

Dwells in the thick and doesn't dwell in the thin;

Dwells in the fruit and doesn't dwell in the flower.

Therefore, he rejects that and takes this.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

Edited May 12, 2011 by Marblehead

[stan herman]

Chapter 38

 

Questions? Comments?

 

For a not dissimilar interpretation see "Tao Now ..."

[anatman]

The loving do not act.

The kind act without self-interest;

The just act to serve self-interest;

The religious act to reproduce self-interest.

For when Tao is lost, there is love;

When love is lost, there is kindness;

When kindness is lost, there is justice;

And when justice is lost, there is religion.

Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;

Closely held beliefs are not easily released;

So religion enthralls generation after generation.

Religion is the end of love and honesty,

The beginning of confusion;

Faith is a colourful hope or fear,

The origin of folly.

The sage goes by knowledge, not by hope;

He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;

He accepts the former, and rejects the latter.

 

found this translation in the tao dude ching.

[deci belle]

The loving do not act.

The kind act without self-interest;

The just act to serve self-interest;

The religious act to reproduce self-interest.

For when Tao is lost, there is love;

When love is lost, there is kindness;

When kindness is lost, there is justice;

And when justice is lost, there is religion.

Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;

Closely held beliefs are not easily released;

So religion enthralls generation after generation.

Religion is the end of love and honesty,

The beginning of confusion;

Faith is a colourful hope or fear,

The origin of folly.

The sage goes by knowledge, not by hope;

He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;

He accepts the former, and rejects the latter.

 

found this translation in the tao dude ching.

 

Nice. I really liked this one. Thank you!

[Marblehead]

 

found this translation in the tao dude ching.

 

Yeah, there are some good things that could be said about the Dude's translation of the TTC.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[anatman]

sometimes it's a little easier to understand,most times not.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 38 The Virtuous De

1. 上德不德，(shang de bu de,)

2. 是以有德。(shi yi you de.)

3. 下德不失德，(xia de bu shi de,)

4. 是以無德。(shi yi wu de.)

5. 上德 [無為] 而無以為。(shang de [wu wei] er wu yi wei.)

6. 下德 [無為] 而有以為。(xia de [wu wei] er you yi wei.)

7. To be continued......

 

Sino-English

1. High virtue is not being boasted with virtue,

2. Thus one has virtue or virtuous.

3. Low virtue is tried not to loose virtue,

4. Thus one has no virtue or not virtuous.

5. High virtue with wu wei, thus had no intention.

6. Low virtue with wu wei, thus had intention.

 

Notes:

1. [無為]wu wei:let nature take its course with no interference; to be natural;

2. One who has an intention was considered not to be Wu Wei.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for the translation.

 

2. One who has an intention was considered not to be Wu Wei.

 

Yes. Intention - the catch word. I often speak to this as alterior motive.

 

Just do what needs be done. That is all. Then walk away.

[ChiDragon]

In the Tao Te Ching point of view, intention relating to Wu Wei is not to interfere with Nature or being unnatural. If I tried to change your thinking, then it would be unnatural on my part with an intention to influence your thoughts without the Principles of Tao. To build a dam on a river was considered interfering with Nature because it was interrupting the flow of the river steam and the living things on the river. However, from a Taoist point of view, the only intention allowed was intended to be Wu Wei. Wu Wei means let Nature take its course without interruption.

 

A good example for being interrupting Nature is the 100 meter long dam was built on the Yangtze River causing the worse drought, below the river, in 50 years. If LaoTze knew about this, he's probably crying in his grave.

Edited May 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

In the Tao Te Ching point of view, intention relating to Wu Wei is not to interfere with Nature or being unnatural. If I tried to change your thinking, then it would be unnatural on my part with an intention to influence your thoughts without the Principles of Tao. To build a dam on a river was considered interfering with Nature because it was interrupting the flow of the river steam and the living things on the river. However, from a Taoist point of view, the only intention allowed was intended to be Wu Wei. Wu Wei means let Nature take its course without interruption.

 

A good example for being interrupting Nature is the 100 meter long dam was built on the Yangtze River causing the worse drought, below the river, in 50 years. If LaoTze knew about this, he's probably crying in his grave.

 

Hey!!! Come over to the intention thread. What you have said here is something that needs be considered in that discussion.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 38 The Virtuous De
1. 上德不德是以有德。
2. 下德不失德是以無德。
3. 上德 [無為] 而無以為。
4. 下德 [無為] 而有以為。
5. 上仁為之而無以為。
6. 上義為之而有以為。
7. 上禮為之而莫之以應，
8. 則攘臂而扔之。
9. 故失道而後德。
10. 失德而後仁。
11. 失仁而後義。
12. 失義而後禮。
13. 夫禮者忠信之薄而亂之首。
14. 前識者，
15. 道之華而愚之始。
16. 是以大丈夫，處其厚，不居其薄。
17. 處其實，不居其華。
18. 故去彼取此。


Translation:
1. High virtue is one who is virtuous and not being vainglorious, then one is virtuous.
2. Low virtue is one who does not discredit himself of being virtuous, then one is not virtuous.
3. High virtue is one who is Wu Wei, then one has no intentional desire.
4. Low virtue is one who is Wu Wei, then one has intentional desires.
5. High benevolent is one's action has no intentional desire.
6. High righteousness is one's action has intentional desires.
7. High etiquette is one's action with nothing in return,
8. Then, raised one's arm to force others to obedient.
9. Therefore, one who lost Tao then become virtuous.
10.One who lost virtue then become benevolent.
11.One who lost benevolence then become righteous.
12.One who lost righteousness then become polite.
13.Hence, politeness is the lack of trust; it is the head of calamity.
14.The so called prediction,
15.It is the vanity of Tao and the beginning of one's ignorance.
16.Therefore, as a great man who dwells in truthfulness but not what is artificial;
17.Place oneself in a more realistic world rather then dwell in an extravagant one.
18.Therefore, discard the latter and keep the former.


Annotation:
Line 16. Artificial means hypocritical, fake, not truthful.

Edited April 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[soaring crane]

That rings reminiscent of something I just posted in the other thread. So, I guess I like your rendition, ChiD :-)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

repost from http://thetaobums.com/topic/35385-help-seeking-further-textual-reference/page-2#entry560663

 

 

I see now that (the terebess publication of the translation by) Lin Yutang also omitted/changed the first line of this stanza in ch. 38:

 

故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首

[When Dao is lost, then follows De]

After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity.
After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice.
After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) li [propriety, social customs].
Now li is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin].
And the beginning of chaos.

 

I'm looking at this again and wondering if maybe the grammar of the text (which tended to be very sparse to avoid repeating phrases) was meant to read exactly as it appears:

 

 

 

故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首

"When Dao is lost then follows De (in being lost)

When De is lost then follows benevolence (in being lost)

When humanity is lost, then follows justice (in being lost)

When justice is lost, then follows social customs and propriety (in being lost)

Regarding propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos"

 

This does seem to fit a lot of the grammatical style, and makes lot's of sense as well:

 

When Dao is lost, virtue is then also lost

When virtue is lost, benevolence is then also lost

When benevolence is lost, justice is then also lost

When justice is lost, propriety and social customs are then also lost

So in regards to propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos

 

This would be rather opposite to the way it has been understood, translated, and thereby commented on.

 

Seems every chapter I look closer at, the more I see how much is left out or misunderstood, so this wouldn't be a huge surprise to me anymore.

 

For it to be translated in this (different) way would be well aligned with The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor which does place great value on all of these virtues (edit: though more in the overall meaning rather than in lists).

 

Of course, the central message is still there - hold to Dao and things will either stay or become aligned.

[Marblehead]

Interesting take on that section. I really have no problem with it as it stays true to the concept being presented.

 

If you can justify your word selections in translating then I would say that it is just as good as any other.

[nestentrie]

I don't read or speak Chinese so I could never really render this Chapter the way I'd like to (and be taken seriously). So what follows is just an exercise in wishful thinking (that I probably still will be hung for...)

 

This is how I would have it:

 

 

38

Possessing the highest degree of Te,
the Virtuous do not seek to show the attributes of Tao,
and so therefore possess them in fullest measure.
Those who possess in a lower degree those
attributes seek how not to lose them,
and therefore they do not possess them in fullest measure.

Those who posses in the highest degree those attributes do
nothing with a purpose, and have no need to do anything. Those who
possess them in a lower degree aree always doing, and have need to
be so doing.

When the Tao is lost, Mercy is lost,
and when Mercy is lost the Benevolence that should be finds no course.
When the Tao is lost, Facility is lost,
and when Facility is lost the Righteousness that would be finds no course.
When the Tao is lost, Sincerity is lost,
and when Sincerity is lost the Propriety that nornally does succeed finds no course.

Thus it is that when the Tao is lost, its attributes appear;
when its attributes are lost, Benevolence appears; when Benevolence
is lost, Righteousness appears; and when Righteousness is lost, the
Proprieties appear.

Now Benevolence, Righteousness, and Propriety are the attenuated forms of leal-heartedness and good faith,
and are also the of the cocomitants of disorder; swift apprehension is
only a flower of the Tao, and is the beginning of stupidity.

Thus it is that the Virtuous abide by what is Honest and eschew what could only seem like Wisdom;

they dwell with the fruit and not with the flower. It is thus that they put away the one and make choice of the other.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It would be difficult to prove that the meaning of the individual characters override the use a compound character. Like words, the compounded meanings can not always be assumed to have the same meaning as the two meanings did in earlier times when the language and written language was still in early stages of changes.

However, the words 而後 [er2hou4] mean literally, separately, "then follows."

Because there is much sparcity of grammatical articles in Classical Chinese, people assumed that De's appearance in the sentence without articles simply meant that "De appears/there is De" as this phrasing is also a grammatical style that appears in the DDJ.


Or perhaps there are more than one or two meanings here.

Early in the chapter, The Venerable Master says that 上德無為而無以為 "Highest virtue does not have to be forced, and in this absence (of force) there is force."

So here we have the carry over of meaning from the previous words (perhaps like "Dao is lost, and then De (is lost)"), AND the appearance of a character meaning that it exists.

What I'm talking about is "而無以為." "Highest virtue is without force, 而無以為 and (this) absence (of force) brings force."

note: 以 appearing before a word generally connotes "in order to," which would sometimes be spoken in English as "brings (about)," as in "以為 brings force."


So here you can see how wu 無 appears alone in the sentence, while carrying unwritten meaning from the previous statement which is required for it to hold it's intended meaning in the sentence. This sparcity of words and carrying of meanings is one of the most difficult things about translating the ancient texts, in my experience, because it's not uncommon to see a word which for someone who is used to English grammatical style or modern Mandarin, seems to be missing the rest of the sentence.

[edit for clarity: 上德無為而無以為 "Highest virtue absent of force and absence brings force"]

What this phrase also shows is the use of 以yi when saying "resulting in/brings." Yi does not appear in the phrase 失道而後德 "Dao is lost, and then De." If 以yi did appear in this sentence, it would have said 失道以德 "Loss of Dao, yi/brings De." Again, this sentence structure was used earlier in the chapter to say "absence (of the need to force virtue) brings about 以yi force." So why not use it again?

以Yi is such a common article that it's easy to overlook it's function and necessity, and may well be omitted at times in favour of sparcity of words. However, it is used so commonly, even in this chapter, that it does seem natural, to me, to use it when saying "失義而後禮 loss of justice (results in) formalities."

Then, as well, when simply looking at the context and flow of meaning, "loss of justice/righteousness is followed by (the loss of) formalities" makes much better sense (imo) as "loss of justice/righteousness is followed by (the loss of) formalities." When there is no justice/righteousness, there are no trials, due process, etc. There is just mob mentality.


Then there is the last few lines: "Thus it is that the Great man abides by what is solid, and eschews what is flimsy; dwells with the fruit and not with the flower. It is thus that he puts away the one and makes choice of the other" (Legge trans.).

With the usual translation of the chapter, it is assumed these lines mean that the virtues are simply "flowers upon other flowers." The lines might even appear out of place when assuming that "and then" means "brings about/causes."

However, they join together the early and later thoughts of the chapter, the early message showing how the virtues are later lost, which is by having to force them - not being able to let them go and have them still be there. "Highest virtue has force without force."

下德不失德, 是以無德。上德無為而無以為；下德為之而有以為
Lowest virtue does not let go of/lose virtue, thereby it is without virtue. Highest virtue (is) without force (does not need to be forced), and (it is this) absence (of force which) brings (it's) force; (it is) lowest virtue's (own) force that gives it force."

[to explain my translation here of 下德為之而有以為 meaning "(it is) lowest virtue's (own) force that gives it force," -- 之 creates a possessive article for 德為, then followed by "and having the result of wei," so it is the force of the virtue which has之 "the result有 of having force." You sort of need to read the sentence backwards in order to see the possessive function of it. Maybe there's some connection to this grammatical style and the fact that Chinese writing is read from right to left, starting with the opposite neural-visual movement/direction when writing! Maybe this indicates a more "right hemisphere" way of thinking, looking and moving left when writing?]

So when you lose Dao, you lose the virtue which has force without force. Then the other virtues fall like dominoes until there is weakness of sincerity and loyalty, followed by chaos.

The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor had some significant parts about the danger to a leader of not knowing "the true words/reputations/names of things." Weakness of sincerity and loyalty would surely be at the root of ministers giving false information and misleading the leader in this way. Similarly, Huang Di explains that male action is boastful and ends in disaster while female conduct is modest and results in success. Once again, the boasting, false reputation, leads to disaster. This we see in the tapestry of meaning from the very beginning of Chapter 38.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[nestentrie]

Yeah, interestesting Harmonious Emptiness. I won't try to dismiss what you've said with the simple "i don't speak chinese", but I don't so it's hard for me to comment. I have seen discussions on translating the ancient chinese before though, so my appreciation for your efforts is not something I'd waive over. Must be difficult, and even more difficult to feel confident in what one is learning from it all.

Edited July 9, 2014 by nestentrie

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yeah, interestesting Harmonious Emptiness. I won't try to dismiss what you've said with the simple "i don't speak chinese", but I don't so it's hard for me to comment. I have seen discussions on translating the ancient chinese before though, so my appreciation for your efforts is not something I'd waive over. Must be difficult, and even more difficult to feel confident in what one is learning from it all.

 

Well, with the modern resources available that allow one to instantly look up characters in a variety of classical phrase usages and compounds, Pulleyblank's excellent and helpful "Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar," and instant access to dozens of previous translations, and online etymology dictionaries, I'm not complaining.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

When Dao is lost, virtue is then also lost

When virtue is lost, benevolence is then also lost

When benevolence is lost, justice is then also lost

When justice is lost, propriety and social customs are then also lost

So in regards to propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos

 

This would be rather opposite to the way it has been understood, translated, and thereby commented on.

 

Well... the opening lines on De are basically about self-negation or lack thereof...

 

 

So when you lose Dao, you lose the virtue which has force without force. Then the other virtues fall like dominoes until there is weakness of sincerity and loyalty, followed by chaos.

 

Robert Moss said in his Laozi translation.notes:

 

The stanza describes social degeneration as the devolution of values—descending by stages from disinterested nonreciprocal benefit to others (lines 1–2) to favor done for favor, in sheer calculation of return—until it reaches the real object of its critique: li, ritual, which means to Laozi the complete externalization and hence falsification of human relations.5 Ritual, cherished by all Confucians, entails exchange through mutual obligation: one side acts, and must act demonstratively (as in adornment) in expectation of reciprocal favor—indeed in order to oblige favor. Thus coercion is implicit in ritual.6

The strongest refutation of this stanza’s view is found in the opening chapter of the Book of Ritual: “The Way, virtue, benevolence, righteousness—all depend on ritual for their achievement.”7

Unlike li (ritual), de (virtue) is an inner quality. In Analects 9.17, de is contrasted with se (appearance, appeal, countenance): “I have yet to find one who loves the inner quality so much as the outward show.” Confucius, too, was suspicious of the tendency of ritual to mere display, but he only argued for greater frugality and simplicity in ritual. Mozi followed Confucius on this point. Laozi, on the other hand, opposes ritual in toto and never speaks of reforming it. Water exemplifies Laozi’s social ideal: “Perfect mastery works like water” (stanza 8). Water performs its service in common, humble, self-sacrificing fashion; obligating no one, it is scarcely noticed and demands no thanks. This is “high virtue.” “Low virtue” seeks its reward from people, from heaven, or from the ancestral gods. The chapter “Lie Yukou” in the Zhuangzi elaborates on some of the themes in this stanza.Compare,for example, the phrase “There is no crime greater than virtue conscious of itself ” (zei moda hu de youxin).

Footnote:

5. The five stages of devolution—the Way, virtue, human kindness, honorable service, and ritual (Dao, de, ren, yi, li)—may mimic and even mock devolution theories of the five elements.

 

6. A passage from Zhuangzi’s “Zhibeiyou” reads: “Ritual is the bedecking of the Way and the source of social disorder. Thus it was said, ‘Pursue the Way by unlearning day by day.’” This interesting Zhuangzi passage suggests that the puzzling words qianshi may not belong in the text at all; it also shows that two Laozi references—to this stanza and to stanza 48—were cited as authority and related to one another by the author of the “Zhibeiyou.”

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Well... the opening lines on De are basically about self-negation or lack thereof...

I'm not 100% sure what you mean there

 

Robert Moss said in his Laozi translation.notes:

 

Yes, this is the line of commentary that prevails regarding the chapter. I agree with him that it regards a decension of values, but but the mode by which this comes about is the point of contention. The rest of his commentary appear to be mostly presumptions based on his reading of this chapter.

 

The chapter “Lie Yukou” in the Zhuangzi elaborates on some of the themes in this stanza.Compare,for example, the phrase “There is no crime greater than virtue conscious of itself ” (zei moda hu de youxin).

Just to note, this is referring to the beginning of the chapter, which we are in agreement on as to overall meaning.

 

Footnote:

5. The five stages of devolution—the Way, virtue, human kindness, honorable service, and ritual (Dao, de, ren, yi, li)—may mimic and even mock devolution theories of the five elements.

 

6. A passage from Zhuangzi’s “Zhibeiyou” reads: “Ritual is the bedecking of the Way and the source of social disorder. Thus it was said, ‘Pursue the Way by unlearning day by day.’” This interesting Zhuangzi passage suggests that the puzzling words qianshi may not belong in the text at all; it also shows that two Laozi references—to this stanza and to stanza 48—were cited as authority and related to one another by the author of the “Zhibeiyou.”

 

I would say that this is accounted for as well with:

 

"When justice(in the heart)/righteousness is lost, then social customs (are lost). 夫interjection/now!, 禮social customs 者there (!). (When) 忠loyalty("centered heart") and 信sincerity ("person's words") 之have 薄weakness，而then (there will be) 亂disorder 之's 首beginning."

 

[Note that 而 is used here without "後follows" (as in 而後 then follows/and then) when saying "then disorder's beginning (arises)." ]

 

It's as though he's saying "夫that said! 禮social customs 者formerly (that we were talking about). Just be sure that they do not descend into false/thin(/surface) types of loyalty and sincerity, for then there will be disorder."

 

surrounding "social customs with 夫fu and 者zhe works to separate it from the preceding flow of thought, so that the continuation of the sentence isn't necessarily in reference to the words before it.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

btw, looked up older Mawangdui texts and they have 句sentence(MWD B ) or 后after/behind(MWD A), appearing in place of follows for 而後 in the phrases in question. So "而句then falling in line like a sentence" or "而后 then behind/follows."

Edited July 9, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

alright, an example from Confucian writing:

 

問仁。曰：「仁者先難而後獲，可謂仁矣。」

"Asked (about) benevolence, (Confucius) said, "The benevolent 先first difficult 而後before obtaining. (Then) can call benevolent!"

 

So one can be said to be of benevolence, perhaps the highest virtue in Confucianism, just by doing hard work before obtaining something? Everybody does that. Could it define the difference between someone of great benevolence and another?

 

The phrase is saying that the benevolent pay attention to the difficult/task at hand before focusing on or rejoicing in what is to be obtained. The matter of "focusing on this and focusing on that" is left out of the words but is an important part of the meaning. These omissions were a way of testing, or otherwise respecting, the readers intelligence by leaving these details for them to figure out on their own. As Confucius said "if a man wants me to teach him, I give him one piece and if he doesn't come back with the other three I will not teach him."

[Marblehead]

Y'all are making my head spin. Hehehe.

 

But regardless of how the four lines are translated, I see a flow from living one's Tzujan to living according to dogma and ritual. That is to say, from living spontaniously to living according to someone else's rules and standards.

 

(I never realizied until lately how much my anarchistic roots influence how I think.)

[dawei]

I'm looking at this again and wondering if maybe the grammar of the text (which tended to be very sparse to avoid repeating phrases) was meant to read exactly as it appears:

 

"When Dao is lost then follows De (in being lost)

When De is lost then follows benevolence (in being lost)

When humanity is lost, then follows justice (in being lost)

When justice is lost, then follows social customs and propriety (in being lost)

Regarding propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos"

 

This does seem to fit a lot of the grammatical style, and makes lot's of sense as well:

 

When Dao is lost, virtue is then also lost

When virtue is lost, benevolence is then also lost

When benevolence is lost, justice is then also lost

When justice is lost, propriety and social customs are then also lost

So in regards to propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos

 

This would be rather opposite to the way it has been understood, translated, and thereby commented on.

 

Following your point.... Looking at the opening lines:

 

High Virtue is self-negating; the absence [of force] reveals [the force].

Low Virtue is lacking thereof: lacking proper force which would be absence; so it is artificial.

 

Thus, Lose Dao and you end up with artificial, human endeavor [force]... which is to say that whatever arises is actually lacking proper force.

 

Lose Dao and everything that follows is but artificial and forced... thus, you inevitably lose that too.

 

 

In the end, I am re-stating what you say and I understand it.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Following your point.... Looking at the opening lines:

 

High Virtue is self-negating; the absence [of force] reveals [the force].

Low Virtue is lacking thereof: lacking proper force which would be absence; so it is artificial.

 

Thus, Lose Dao and you end up with artificial, human endeavor [force]... which is to say that whatever arises is actually lacking proper force.

 

Lose Dao and everything that follows is but artificial and forced... thus, you inevitably lose that too.

 

 

In the end, I am re-stating what you say and I understand it.

 

YES!

 

That explains it much better. It's difficult enough just putting these things into English, but then explaining why they should be put that way in English is even more of a challenge.

 

So to re-re-iterate, Dao is the "virtue" that does not require force to have force. When that virtue has been lost, the manifestations of it follow, like the flower dying with the fruit.

 

"Thus it is that the Great man abides by what is solid, and eschews what is flimsy; dwells with the fruit and not with the flower. It is thus that he puts away the one and makes choice of the other" (Legge trans.).

 

It may not be entirely wrong to gain the usual understanding from the chapter, that superficial virtues take the place of others when they are lost, but this, to me, is not the only or even primary message.

 

It's not to say that virtue, benevolence, heartfelt justice, and courtesy are nothing but superficialities. But when Dao is lost, they are weak, thin, and flimsy, like flowers that have been picked from their roots. They will not endure without their connection to the virtue who's force does not require force. You can put the flowers in a vase and keep them looking fresh for a couple of weeks if you keep putting water on them, but if they are not sitting in soil, earth, they will not produce any fruits and will soon wither!

Edited July 9, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness