inner/outer practical problem

[Birch]

I have a problem to submit to the bums.

 

I guess it gets mixed up with this inner/outer thing. My current experience is of other people noticing a state (fleeting) I'm in and pointing it out and asking for a justification much later after. When I don't want to give one, they get annoyed. Mind, I'm not harsh when I refuse. I thank them for caring about it. But it really really annoys me. I have to force politeness on this one. And then that pisses me off as well

 

The reason I don't want to give justification is because I don't think it's worth it in most cases. A "pick your battles" kind of thing. But this seems to be unsatisfactory to the other person who will:

 

- serve me up an "attitude" that can last for days after. So for every one of my fleeting "moments" that get pointed out, I get served up a dish of the sulks and curt replies

 

- not miss the next opportunity to ask me for justification on the same (fleeting) state

 

I don't know what to do with it. I just know that I'm having a real hard time with it. I mean it seems nice that someone should ask how you feel but I just don't see it that way. The way I see it is they're asking so they can show me how unjustified I am in feeling that way. And indeed this has been my previous experience with people who do ask me "what's up".

 

What do I do with it? It's gotten to the point where I can't be at ease around the person who's "doing" it. Not helpful because I have to be (work).

 

Thanks for all suggestions!

[Seth Ananda]

I have a problem to submit to the bums.

 

I guess it gets mixed up with this inner/outer thing. My current experience is of other people noticing a state (fleeting) I'm in and pointing it out and asking for a justification much later after. When I don't want to give one, they get annoyed. Mind, I'm not harsh when I refuse. I thank them for caring about it. But it really really annoys me. I have to force politeness on this one. And then that pisses me off as well

 

The reason I don't want to give justification is because I don't think it's worth it in most cases. A "pick your battles" kind of thing. But this seems to be unsatisfactory to the other person who will:

 

- serve me up an "attitude" that can last for days after. So for every one of my fleeting "moments" that get pointed out, I get served up a dish of the sulks and curt replies

 

- not miss the next opportunity to ask me for justification on the same (fleeting) state

 

I don't know what to do with it. I just know that I'm having a real hard time with it. I mean it seems nice that someone should ask how you feel but I just don't see it that way. The way I see it is they're asking so they can show me how unjustified I am in feeling that way. And indeed this has been my previous experience with people who do ask me "what's up".

 

What do I do with it? It's gotten to the point where I can't be at ease around the person who's "doing" it. Not helpful because I have to be (work).

 

Thanks for all suggestions!

If you feel that someone is asking what you are feeling, just so they can try and make you justify it, then in my opinion there is no need on your part to speak it.

 

On the other hand, maybe something needs to be addressed, but only you can know that.

 

If it is a recurring feeling, and the other person who [i guess] has an emotional connection to you, feels your shift or change of emotion then gets defensive and starts Interrogating, then I would imagine something need's resolving.

 

I would look at what it is, but bring it up outside the situation where you/they are feeling it if possible, and if you think it worth while.

 

I statements are brilliant for a conversation like this, if you are used to using them...

[The Way Is Virtue]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but here's some thoughts. Our moods and behaviour can affect other people we interact with in many ways, and we often may be unaware of just how much it can impact others around us. If various people keep bringing it up then it may be that it is something that is impacting them enough for them to keep noticing and bringing it up. Of course most of us can't simply just snap our fingers and change our mood or behaviour so easily, but at least we can try to look into what other people are feeding back to us and see if it is something we can maybe work on. On the other hand, in some cases it may really be that it is the other people who are over reacting due to certain biases or misunderstandings, or maybe because they are just busy bodies. So maybe a balanced approach is to give due consideration to both sides of the coin and try to figure which route might be the best for making things go smoother in the long run. I would suggest it is not so much about fault or blame, but how we might work with it to make improvements to the situation to make things go smoother overall. I'm not suggesting that I think that is an easy thing to do though. For myself, being a very introverted person, it is something I have to keep reminding myself to keep working on more. It is certainly not one of my strong points...

[doc benway]

It seems like there is some underlying current or an imbalance in the relationships you describe.

Someone seems to be taking more license with intimacy with you than you are willing to share.

Are they getting inconsistent or unintentional messages from you?

Are they simply being overly aggressive?

I would look at the relationship and look at your own reaction to the relationship closely.

[Birch]

All great replies. Thank you

 

I reckon I've figured it out. I think this other person wants to do a really good job. And me "looking angry" - however fleetingly - probably suggests to them that I'm not happy about the job "they're" doing. Never mind why I might actually be looking that way or that they're not actually doing anything, just passing through and happen to see me...

 

Anyway, I figure they want to know what the "problem" is/was so they can either fix it or attribute my moment to something else (i.e. "not their problem"). To be honest, I don't want them over-attributing it to me either. As truth be told, there are some things that I'm not that happy about but I don't think they can do anything about either. Like I said, it's a "pick your battles" kind of thing.

 

I think I might look angry when I'm in fact very frustrated and trying to figure out what to do about it. When I see people who look angry as they go about doing things, I just don't engage. I figure if they feel it's worth getting into with me, they will. So here we have a good example of two people probably misunderstanding both the "problem" and the "solution" and annoying each other all while trying to "do the right thing." Isn't that stupid?

 

"So maybe a balanced approach is to give due consideration to both sides of the coin and try to figure which route might be the best for making things go smoother in the long run. I would suggest it is not so much about fault or blame, but how we might work with it to make improvements to the situation to make things go smoother overall."

 

Right. Because I can't miraculously change the expression on my face if I'm frustrated. Well, I can. I can sort of force it into a smile but then how would that come off

 

See it's great to "work" on this stuff, but I don't know how much of it one can actually get a handle on. I also sometimes wonder if all the "working on it' isn't just kind of stupid when you're still left with other people's lenses to reach them through and as far as I can tell, not everyone is "working on it" or even aware that they have a 'lens' And indeed why should they? My answer would be that they shouldn't.

 

Steve F, your point on intimacy was interesting.

[doc benway]

 

 

See it's great to "work" on this stuff, but I don't know how much of it one can actually get a handle on. I also sometimes wonder if all the "working on it' isn't just kind of stupid when you're still left with other people's lenses to reach them through and as far as I can tell, not everyone is "working on it" or even aware that they have a 'lens' And indeed why should they? My answer would be that they shouldn't.

 

I think your insight is right on - other folks in our lives frequently internalize any displeasure they perceive in us and attribute it to their own behavior. They are addicted to approval, as are we all, and they are frightened and insecure. In the workplace I imagine this might be a big issue. I think that if you can connect with your heart center or chakra or whatever you like to call it and share love with this person every time they seem threatened, the problem should go away.

 

Regarding your comments on "working" on this stuff, it's very close to my heart.

 

Rant on - you've been warned!

 

I've been closely studying my feelings and behavior and thought processes and where they come from for quite some time. I've looked deeply at how others affect how I feel and what that really says about me, ultimately - not about them. Because the feeling is in me, not outside of me in reality. Another person in my position could react and feel completely differently under the exact same circumstances.

 

And the issue comes up - is it worth it to work on myself when other folks are still going to be themselves (for better or worse) and probably not do similar work? They will still be afraid and insecure and robotic and spiteful and defensive and so on. The answer I've come up with is a resounding - yes. Even more important for me to do this work if the other won't change. The reason being that my reaction to other people is completely within me and a skillful and aware life is one in which I am not a monkey on a leash dancing to the whims of others. Someone tells me I look nice or smell nice or compliments my country or beliefs and I am thrilled, I'm happy. Because I'm getting my fix of my drug - approval. A moment later someone else tells me I look fat or I'm lazy or they don't like my clothes and I'm angry or sad or embarrassed - I'm denied my drug and I'm in agony! What a way to live!!! Might as well be trained circus animal or a robot or a slave.

 

When I develop the awareness of this stuff to the point that other people can't hurt me, it doesn't really matter if they are working on themselves or not. They may continue on with their business and I am untouched. They can yell and scream and insult and slap me and I can open my heart and make space for their pain and hatred and foolishness and I can smile to myself in the knowledge that we are the same. Under different circumstances I may have acted exactly like them at one point. Their words can't touch me unless I permit it, buy into their view and identify with it. I know I'm an ass already, I do stupid stuff, I hurt people at times because I'm not aware enough of what I'm doing or saying and so on. So if they call me names, it is not anything I haven't already recognized in myself. And once I make this change, every relationship I have changes, no way around it. If I am centered and at peace and undisturbed, the relationship must be different than when I was unbalanced and edgy and insecure and defensive. So if I change, they will change. It may be very subtle but they will feel it eventually. And it's hard work that goes on and on and I don't know if it will ever be automatic or easy but it is easier now than it once was. And it's extremely effective.

 

Now, I'm not calling you names or trying to be hurtful or insulting (and if I am, it is your choice to identify yourself with my words and get upset or recognize it for what it is - words and hot air from a stranger who knows nothing more than anyone else, and just chuckle and tell me to buzz off). But I am sharing some stuff I've learned that works for me and has helped me to deal with some really traumatic and challenging stuff in some of the relationships in my life and in my work.

 

I don't think there is any more important work to be done in life than this. What is a relationship? What are the boundaries? How do I react to others? What does that teach me about myself and how much do I allow others to affect my emotional and psychological life? And if I can come fully awake and not be a slave to the whims and foolishness and approval of others, then I am completely liberated. That is what the sage is and what is so utterly frightening to authority that the current pope outlawed all of the writings of Anthony Demello as heresy. That's why so much bullshit is layered over the Christian scriptures and Buddha's message. Because authority fears freedom. When every one of us is liberated who can control us?

 

Rant off, like I said, this stuff is close to my heart. I almost deleted all this just now but F- it. I'll go ahead and post it anyway.

I know I sound like a broken record and that's OK, it's pretty close to the truth!

[Otis]

Kate, I applaud your questions, and your interest in finding balance in this situation.

 

Steve, fantastic rant!

 

I don't think there is any more important work to be done in life than this. What is a relationship? What are the boundaries? How do I react to others? What does that teach me about myself and how much do I allow others to affect my emotional and psychological life? And if I can come fully awake and not be a slave to the whims and foolishness and approval of others, then I am completely liberated. That is what the sage is and what is so utterly frightening to authority that the current pope outlawed all of the writings of Anthony Demello as heresy. That's why so much bullshit is layered over the Christian scriptures and Buddha's message. Because authority fears freedom. When every one of us is liberated who can control us?

 

This is pure awesomeness!

[Birch]

I think your insight is right on - other folks in our lives frequently internalize any displeasure they perceive in us and attribute it to their own behavior. They are addicted to approval, as are we all, and they are frightened and insecure. In the workplace I imagine this might be a big issue. I think that if you can connect with your heart center or chakra or whatever you like to call it and share love with this person every time they seem threatened, the problem should go away.

 

Regarding your comments on "working" on this stuff, it's very close to my heart.

 

Rant on - you've been warned!

 

I've been closely studying my feelings and behavior and thought processes and where they come from for quite some time. I've looked deeply at how others affect how I feel and what that really says about me, ultimately - not about them. Because the feeling is in me, not outside of me in reality. Another person in my position could react and feel completely differently under the exact same circumstances.

 

And the issue comes up - is it worth it to work on myself when other folks are still going to be themselves (for better or worse) and probably not do similar work? They will still be afraid and insecure and robotic and spiteful and defensive and so on. The answer I've come up with is a resounding - yes. Even more important for me to do this work if the other won't change. The reason being that my reaction to other people is completely within me and a skillful and aware life is one in which I am not a monkey on a leash dancing to the whims of others. Someone tells me I look nice or smell nice or compliments my country or beliefs and I am thrilled, I'm happy. Because I'm getting my fix of my drug - approval. A moment later someone else tells me I look fat or I'm lazy or they don't like my clothes and I'm angry or sad or embarrassed - I'm denied my drug and I'm in agony! What a way to live!!! Might as well be trained circus animal or a robot or a slave.

 

When I develop the awareness of this stuff to the point that other people can't hurt me, it doesn't really matter if they are working on themselves or not. They may continue on with their business and I am untouched. They can yell and scream and insult and slap me and I can open my heart and make space for their pain and hatred and foolishness and I can smile to myself in the knowledge that we are the same. Under different circumstances I may have acted exactly like them at one point. Their words can't touch me unless I permit it, buy into their view and identify with it. I know I'm an ass already, I do stupid stuff, I hurt people at times because I'm not aware enough of what I'm doing or saying and so on. So if they call me names, it is not anything I haven't already recognized in myself. And once I make this change, every relationship I have changes, no way around it. If I am centered and at peace and undisturbed, the relationship must be different than when I was unbalanced and edgy and insecure and defensive. So if I change, they will change. It may be very subtle but they will feel it eventually. And it's hard work that goes on and on and I don't know if it will ever be automatic or easy but it is easier now than it once was. And it's extremely effective.

 

Now, I'm not calling you names or trying to be hurtful or insulting (and if I am, it is your choice to identify yourself with my words and get upset or recognize it for what it is - words and hot air from a stranger who knows nothing more than anyone else, and just chuckle and tell me to buzz off). But I am sharing some stuff I've learned that works for me and has helped me to deal with some really traumatic and challenging stuff in some of the relationships in my life and in my work.

 

I don't think there is any more important work to be done in life than this. What is a relationship? What are the boundaries? How do I react to others? What does that teach me about myself and how much do I allow others to affect my emotional and psychological life? And if I can come fully awake and not be a slave to the whims and foolishness and approval of others, then I am completely liberated. That is what the sage is and what is so utterly frightening to authority that the current pope outlawed all of the writings of Anthony Demello as heresy. That's why so much bullshit is layered over the Christian scriptures and Buddha's message. Because authority fears freedom. When every one of us is liberated who can control us?

 

Rant off, like I said, this stuff is close to my heart. I almost deleted all this just now but F- it. I'll go ahead and post it anyway.

I know I sound like a broken record and that's OK, it's pretty close to the truth!

 

Oh no! I LIKED it. Amazingly I was still wondering whether I should "work on it" for others - now you've managed to convince me it's the most self-benefitting thing ever.

 

Very good remarks! Glad you didn't delete - but then you don't care about my approval anyway, right? (I threw in the last "right" on purpose )

[Birch]

Kate, I applaud your questions, and your interest in finding balance in this situation.

 

Steve, fantastic rant!

 

 

 

This is pure awesomeness!

 

Otis, I strongly approve of your approval

[Otis]

Oh no! I LIKED it. Amazingly I was still wondering whether I should "work on it" for others - now you've managed to convince me it's the most self-benefitting thing ever.

Yeah, this is part of why I started the "Other People" thread, because this has been a tricky one for me, as well.

 

Why should I do all the work? Don't they have some responsibility in this as well?

 

And then, of course, realizing: it's not a question of whether they have responsibility, but a question of: what do I have the power to change?

 

And yes, I can ask someone else to change (or at least to meet me halfway), but the more powerful changes are all within myself. That is where my true agency lies.

 

(Besides, the story of "their responsibility" or "what's fair" are just that: stories. There's no divine judge to intercede on my behalf, and set things straight, so the stories are next to meaningless).

 

So shifting my response does not have to be the same as being dishonest with myself. It can be just improving my skill in interacting with the world. The fact that "the world" in this case is represented by another person, doesn't really change the issue. What I have control over is my willingness to practice new skills of meeting others with honesty and care (plus my willingness to forgive myself and others, when either doesn't do or say what I'd prefer).

 

As I said, this is a tough one for me, as well. I wish you the best, in finding a balance that works for you.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Otis

[Birch]

"As I said, this is a tough one for me, as well. I wish you the best, in finding a balance that works for you."

 

Thank you Otis. That sounds nice. Or it "should" I dunno.

 

My present notion of "balance" is leaning waaaaay over to "my" side of the shenanigans. I can't say why exactly that's a good place for it, but it feels much better, more "right" than the previous setting which was more what Steve F was on about.

 

Pleasing people is a very mysterious undertaking IMO/IME. I've tried most my life and got it wrong most of the time. So why not try something else? I'm convinced "balance" will take care of itself. But I might be wrong...

[doc benway]

[Aetherous]

Pleasing people is a very mysterious undertaking IMO/IME. I've tried most my life and got it wrong most of the time. So why not try something else?

 

Could be that you're just trying to please the wrong people (the unpleasables).

[Birch]

"Why else do I post on this forum and then check to see who has commented on..."

 

Yes! Why else?

 

I have a few "why elses" - that I've sometimes mentioned in a bit of a "group-huggy" fashion but I'm actually quite serious about some of it.

[Birch]

Could be that you're just trying to please the wrong people (the unpleasables).

 

 

Hey, where'd you get to ?

 

I don't think there's a bunch of them. I think I'm just bad at all kinds of things.

[Mal]

I think I'm just bad at all kinds of things.

 

 

You're not.

[doc benway]

"Why else do I post on this forum and then check to see who has commented on..."

 

Yes! Why else?

 

I have a few "why elses" - that I've sometimes mentioned in a bit of a "group-huggy" fashion but I'm actually quite serious about some of it.

Yeah, I agree there are others (and I'd love to hear some of your group-huggy thoughts, seriously) but I also like to remind myself of the negative reasons as well - otherwise, I might get a big head!