The answer lies in the India/Nepal/Tibet Himalaya Regions afterall.. and definitely NOT in china/taiwan..

[JustARandomPanda]

btw i am not looking up to him as a guru.. but he is certainly greater than me.. and everybody should feel ashamed when comparing themselves to him..

 

Odd. I do not recall in any of my studying and searching that the Buddha or Lao Tzu felt shame for beings who had less cultivation accomplishments than themselves. In fact the only responses I ever seem to clearly recall is that they had either A) compassion or B ) equanimity.

[Sloppy Zhang]

No need to go to Asia...

 

There really isn't. There are plenty of accomplished teachers all over the world from plenty of different lineages/traditions.

 

Unless you actually have contacts in foreign countries, with a destination and a goal locked in, you probably won't be doing much else besides wasting time and doing practices you could be doing in your own country.

 

When you have overcome the teachers in the states, let alone some of the teachers on this forum, THEN I'd suggest you think about going abroad. But if you get to that high a level, I'd think your path would be pretty clear already.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Everything]

I understand now..

 

true spiritual progress can only be achieved by rejecting everything.. i mean everything about the mundane world..

 

and if it means foregoing food and water in your meditations, then so be it!..

 

this is only a goal which the highest spiritual practitioners can aspire to..

 

and I am sure not too many lay practitioners can follow in the highest masters' paths..

 

foregoing sex..

 

foregoing food and water..

 

how many of you can let go of the mundane world in your search for the true reality, the true nature of the universe?

When you seek truth, it does not mean information, it means the feeling of "understanding" everything. It is not easy to get in such a state of mind. One way is to die, yes. But there has to be a rebirth aswell. If you can experience the moment before death and survive it, you will feel this truth, understanding of all. It places you in a position of awe for every tiny detail in your life.

 

With meditation this can be achieved aswell. It is the same with lowering your standards. Become aware of all the tiny lame uninteresting senses that is sub-conscious, make them conscious, become more sensitive, be more in the moment feel more alive and see more value in everything. Its like eating poop for 5 days and then a nice hot meal. Suddenly this meal is more valuable. Why? Because value is relative. We can increase the value of our life by increasing our sensitivity towards life. Increasing sensitivity towards life means you start slow first, closed eyes sitting meditation. Later your entire life becomes a meditation, your dreams become a meditation, even reading the newspaper becomes a meditation. You have total 100% control over the value of your reality, and thus have more freedom. Let us say that you read the newspaper and you have more control over your reality, or "focus of senses". Suddenly the bad news section turns your life in a living nightmare. Atleast thats something I personally expect would happen, but it does not have to be a common issue for everyone.

 

I don't see the point in depriving yourself of food and water competetively. It is not something that is a game or battle. It is a personal journey, and you can begin it now. Simply by living at the edge of your own boundary, not someone elses like a master or guru you admire. The most important amount of days a person can last without food and water is the amount of days that you can last without food and water, not someone else. If you die of starvation, you will first loose your mind and not even recall the near death experience? ITs kinda usueless then don't you think? The experience of living at your edge gives you a more clear identity, purpose, values, etc.

 

If you really seek the truth in terms of information I think the closest we can get is physics and mathematics. Those two make most progress towards a bigger more universal truth. How this truth is used by men is another story. But this kind of journey never ends, and some say that the beauty lies in this. You will never find the truth, for it will move away as you try to approach it, like your own shadow in summertime.

 

Its like you finally know "everything" as in you know the entire universe and then suddenly you find out that there are more universes or something... Beautiful, isn't it?

Edited May 19, 2011 by Everything

[C T]

Prostration to some dude sitting on his throne has nothing to do with so called spiritual advancement. The Lamas claim that one is prostrating to the teachings. Why doesn't the Lama prostrate at the same time with everyone else? He does his first and then everyone else to him! The Lama's are treated like royalty!

Haven't you seen high lamas prostrating to tulkus of 4 or 5? I have. Its got very little, if anything, to do with authority. Its apparent this is rubbing you the wrong way, and whatever seems to be tugging at your insides, you are projecting it out as though you need some confirmation that your views and embedded mental derivatives are justified. Perhaps its you who unconsciously want to be treated like royalty? Trust me, its not that pleasant.

 

When i practice prostrations daily, my main motive is to remind myself to awaken bodhicitta - this is like prostrating to the buddha nature (as potential) that exists within all sentient beings and which can be awakened when the circumstances to do so align favorably. The secondary benefit is of course it helps to keep one fit as a fiddle .... I have heard that doing the first hundred thousand prostrations is like being in hell... the second hundred thousand and one gets grounded so intensely that distractions simply fall away, and by the time the third hundred thousand is completed, one would feel like a child of heaven.

 

(sixty-seven, sixty-eight, seventy, seventy-one, seventy-two.... and counting )

Edited May 19, 2011 by CowTao

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

I suppose Vajraji has been telling you how much of a heretic I am.

 

 

 

Nope, I've never done such a thing. Honestly. It'd be easier to think I was part of your conspiracy theory about Hierarchies though. LOL!

[Vajrahridaya]

Haven't you seen high lamas prostrating to tulkus of 4 or 5? I have. Its got very little, if anything, to do with authority. Its apparent this is rubbing you the wrong way, and whatever seems to be tugging at your insides, you are projecting it out as though you need some confirmation that your views and embedded mental derivatives are justified. Perhaps its you who unconsciously want to be treated like royalty? Trust me, its not that pleasant.

 

When i practice prostrations daily, my main motive is to remind myself to awaken bodhicitta - this is like prostrating to the buddha nature (as potential) that exists within all sentient beings and which can be awakened when the circumstances to do so align favorably. The secondary benefit is of course it helps to keep one fit as a fiddle .... I have heard that doing the first hundred thousand prostrations is like being in hell... the second hundred thousand and one gets grounded so intensely that distractions simply fall away, and by the time the third hundred thousand is completed, one would feel like a child of heaven.

 

(sixty-seven, sixty-eight, seventy, seventy-one, seventy-two.... and counting )

 

Hi CowTao,

 

Just the process of releasing the ego during the practice is proof enough that it works! I think it's better to intellectually release oneself into the benefits of these practices than to use the intellect as a so called safeguard against the possibility of spiritual experience. Bowing the head to the heart is an excellent practice!

 

I've in fact seen Lamas bow to their students before a talk.

[Jetsun]

Does it benefit the person you are prostrating to though? maybe it inflates their ego and makes things harder for them so you do them no favours to bow down to them, history shows that there are plenty of guru's who get big heads who go onto abuse their power due to over inflated egos from being over worshipped.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

all mystical traditions possess such solitary meditation methods..

 

you were differentiating between buddhahood and enlightenment by your phrase "not all traditions are even interested in Buddhahood"

 

all traditions ultimately lead to buddhahood and enlightenment..

 

 

Bodyoflight,

 

Thank you for that information.

 

But, I don't agree that all traditions lead to Buddhahood necessarily, but most do lead to some aspect of enlightenment or another. There are exceptional individuals that have amazing potential that transcend many of the limitations within their tradition and expand on it's edges.

 

The Buddha was quite clear that meditation and awareness inversion does not necessarily lead to full blown Buddhahood unless coupled with insight based on "right view." One of the aspects of the 8 fold path specific to Buddhism. There are many blissful pit-stops along the path that most paths label as the end all be all, proof of a supreme self existence, the supreme substance behind all things, as the Buddha revealed concerning various formless samadhi states. These pit stops would not be revelatory of the highest insight as presented in Buddha lineages. I'm not saying every individual in other traditions limits their revelation to these pit-stops either. There are exceptions to every rule.

[Vajrahridaya]

Does it benefit the person you are prostrating to though? maybe it inflates their ego and makes things harder for them so you do them no favours to bow down to them, history shows that there are plenty of guru's who get big heads who go onto abuse their power due to over inflated egos from being over worshipped.

 

Sure, that can also happen and there are plenty examples from both sides of the equation. It's not my job to do someone elses Sadhana though.

[C T]

Hi CowTao,

 

Just the process of releasing the ego during the practice is proof enough that it works! I think it's better to intellectually release oneself into the benefits of these practices than to use the intellect as a so called safeguard against the possibility of spiritual experience. Bowing the head to the heart is an excellent practice!

 

I've in fact seen Lamas bow to their students before a talk.

Yes, agreed.

 

The idea that high lamas only sit on thrones while garbed in high hats and elaborate robes is totally off the mark. Here is a clip that shows HE Tsem Tulku, a very prominent teacher and greatly revered in Ganden Monastery, giving teachings while sitting on the floor wearing a polo shirt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCz68enlvgc&feature=related

[Vajrahridaya]

The question is do you? Do you have the names of reputable tibetan teachers or organizations?

 

I take it you don't speak the language. Have you done any work at tibetan yoga practices? Do you have any contacts here who can guide in the right direction?

 

If you're not spending a couple hours at it now, methinks your an intellect overshadows your practice. And in the real world practice is all.

 

This is true. Plenty of people get their pre-conceptions blown out of the water when going on an Indian pilgrimage. Of course, this is subjective and the result of such a pilgrimage all depends upon personal karma as well as effort applied in this lifetime. One cannot say what will happen to an individual from the West who goes to the East for spiritual sustenance?

[C T]

Does it benefit the person you are prostrating to though? maybe it inflates their ego and makes things harder for them so you do them no favours to bow down to them, history shows that there are plenty of guru's who get big heads who go onto abuse their power due to over inflated egos from being over worshipped.

Prostrations need not be public. By all means, do them at home. In Dzogchen, practitioners work with it wherever they are - because in Dzogchen wherever one is, whatever is happening, can be used as practice. There are no demands, only that one readies oneself, as much as possible, thru whatever is happening right now, to awaken to what is. Within authentic Dzogchen schools, worshipping of anything is not encouraged, least of all the guru. When one reaches the stage where one sees all things as inseparable, and that the guru is none other than a representation/embodiment of one's innate buddha nature, emanating from within one's own lotus- heart, then a spontaneous recognition arises, by which time, there is so much affection that its almost impossible not to want to venerate one's guru (need not be a living person btw). But such a state requires maturity and a stable mind.

[Vajrahridaya]

Odd. I do not recall in any of my studying and searching that the Buddha or Lao Tzu felt shame for beings who had less cultivation accomplishments than themselves. In fact the only responses I ever seem to clearly recall is that they had either A) compassion or B ) equanimity.

 

Indeed! Quite easy in the Ashram or Monastery, or for quite the period after leaving, but rather difficult in the world surrounded by people with sadly, low spiritual IQ's. Not to sound too damning... everyone has their manifest potential. The inherent potential of all sentient beings is of course Buddhahood. Of course, when in the place of auspicious mind, it's easier to stay anchored in seeing through all the fluctuation into the hidden potential of all beings and communicate and facilitate from the inner stance of tranquility and compassion, but the practice is to maintain that.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, agreed.

 

The idea that high lamas only sit on thrones while garbed in high hats and elaborate robes is totally off the mark. Here is a clip that shows HE Tsem Tulku, a very prominent teacher and greatly revered in Ganden Monastery, giving teachings while sitting on the floor wearing a polo shirt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCz68enlvgc&feature=related

 

[bodyoflight]

i think your spiritual ticket got stamped VOID with that statement.

 

what you think has nothing to do with my enlightenment..

[bodyoflight]

In that case, why are you spreading heresay on the net yourself?

 

 

Mandrake

 

you can choose not to respond or even ignore my heresies..

 

feel free to do so..

[bodyoflight]

I found this in another thread. My guess is it aplies to you:

 

I used to hide behind Buddhism to deny my own needs, I was 26 (a bit too late) when I called bullshit on my own spirituality and just look for happiness like everyone else does. Took over a year before I'm comfortable with the person in the mirror and another year to really have a social life. Had a few very close platonic friends (platonic because they're not attracted to me) from the same social circle as my other guy friends, learned how to banter from them (important skill) and learned how to talk over the phone for hours (important skill #2). Once you're comfortable around women, everything just falls into place. I'm 29 now and have never been happier, also meditation is a lot easier now that my head is not as full of fuck as it did.

 

lol..

 

you are still judging your life by "happiness", "friends", "women"..

 

"bantering" "talking" skills are important..

 

"social" circles are important..

 

hahahhahahhahahahha..

 

i wish you will still be that "happy" repeating your life for the next few thousand lifetimes..

Edited May 19, 2011 by bodyoflight

[bodyoflight]

The question is do you? Do you have the names of reputable tibetan teachers or organizations?

 

I take it you don't speak the language. Have you done any work at tibetan yoga practices? Do you have any contacts here who can guide in the right direction?

 

If you're not spending a couple hours at it now, methinks your an intellect overshadows your practice. And in the real world practice is all.

 

do i?

 

the answers are already in this thread..

 

go do your own research..

[bodyoflight]

Odd. I do not recall in any of my studying and searching that the Buddha or Lao Tzu felt shame for beings who had less cultivation accomplishments than themselves. In fact the only responses I ever seem to clearly recall is that they had either A) compassion or B ) equanimity.

 

i am sure buddha and lao tzu felt really sick of lesser beings from time to time..

 

they just didn't talk about it..

[bodyoflight]

When you seek truth, it does not mean information, it means the feeling of "understanding" everything. It is not easy to get in such a state of mind. One way is to die, yes. But there has to be a rebirth aswell. If you can experience the moment before death and survive it, you will feel this truth, understanding of all. It places you in a position of awe for every tiny detail in your life.

 

With meditation this can be achieved aswell. It is the same with lowering your standards. Become aware of all the tiny lame uninteresting senses that is sub-conscious, make them conscious, become more sensitive, be more in the moment feel more alive and see more value in everything. Its like eating poop for 5 days and then a nice hot meal. Suddenly this meal is more valuable. Why? Because value is relative. We can increase the value of our life by increasing our sensitivity towards life. Increasing sensitivity towards life means you start slow first, closed eyes sitting meditation. Later your entire life becomes a meditation, your dreams become a meditation, even reading the newspaper becomes a meditation. You have total 100% control over the value of your reality, and thus have more freedom. Let us say that you read the newspaper and you have more control over your reality, or "focus of senses". Suddenly the bad news section turns your life in a living nightmare. Atleast thats something I personally expect would happen, but it does not have to be a common issue for everyone.

 

I don't see the point in depriving yourself of food and water competetively. It is not something that is a game or battle. It is a personal journey, and you can begin it now. Simply by living at the edge of your own boundary, not someone elses like a master or guru you admire. The most important amount of days a person can last without food and water is the amount of days that you can last without food and water, not someone else. If you die of starvation, you will first loose your mind and not even recall the near death experience? ITs kinda usueless then don't you think? The experience of living at your edge gives you a more clear identity, purpose, values, etc.

 

If you really seek the truth in terms of information I think the closest we can get is physics and mathematics. Those two make most progress towards a bigger more universal truth. How this truth is used by men is another story. But this kind of journey never ends, and some say that the beauty lies in this. You will never find the truth, for it will move away as you try to approach it, like your own shadow in summertime.

 

Its like you finally know "everything" as in you know the entire universe and then suddenly you find out that there are more universes or something... Beautiful, isn't it?

 

hahahhahahahhahahha...

 

ah well..

[bodyoflight]

Indeed! Quite easy in the Ashram or Monastery, or for quite the period after leaving, but rather difficult in the world surrounded by people with sadly, low spiritual IQ's. Not to sound too damning... everyone has their manifest potential. The inherent potential of all sentient beings is of course Buddhahood. Of course, when in the place of auspicious mind, it's easier to stay anchored in seeing through all the fluctuation into the hidden potential of all beings and communicate and facilitate from the inner stance of tranquility and compassion, but the practice is to maintain that.

 

V

 

I can see you already understand where I am coming from.

 

I have to prostate myself in front of you for continuing the good fight to save the lesser souls but alas, I am not and will never be as strong as you are.

 

Maybe because I have not even saved myself yet.. so how do I save others?

 

P.S. Don't be influenced by those around you in your search for the truth..

 

Even if they are your partners, marriage, business or otherwise..

Edited May 19, 2011 by bodyoflight

[bodyoflight]

There really isn't. There are plenty of accomplished teachers all over the world from plenty of different lineages/traditions.

 

Unless you actually have contacts in foreign countries, with a destination and a goal locked in, you probably won't be doing much else besides wasting time and doing practices you could be doing in your own country.

 

When you have overcome the teachers in the states, let alone some of the teachers on this forum, THEN I'd suggest you think about going abroad. But if you get to that high a level, I'd think your path would be pretty clear already.

 

Carry on your searching step-by-step and jumping through the hoops!

 

I am done and going straight to the top.

 

Or rather..

 

I QUIT! I RESIGN!

 

*MIDDLE FINGER SALUTE TO THE INTERMEDIATE SUPERVISORS WHO HAVE ABUSED THEIR AUTHORITY GIVEN TO THEM BY THE ALMIGHTY BOSS!*

Edited May 19, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Pero]

I have practiced Vajrayana for a good few years but have never encountered a situation where a demand was made to prostrate before my teachers, or visiting lamas, and lineage holders of the various traditions. But then, pride has never been one of my tendencies. I can see though why some Western students are averse to doing prostrations. Without fully synthesizing the deeper and subtler benefits associated with this practice, which could be due to seeing and taking what is superficial(at face value) as excuses for not wanting to adopt the practice, it could be hard to convince oneself that prostrations do more than merely putting on an external show of yielding/surrendering to imaginary forces deemed higher than oneself.

 

When I attended Tibetan Buddhist teachings in person for the first time, I had no idea in my mind to do any prostrations. But after the teacher came in I realized quickly enough that I was the only one left standing LOL. So I thought I better do some too. But while doing them (or perhaps it was already during the first one, don't remember), I suddenly realized that I was doing prostrations not because of devotion or respect or anything like that, but because I was worried what other people would think of me for not doing any. I realized then that much more important that outer showing of supposed devotion is the state of one's mind. If you have devotion in your mind then it doesn't matter whether you prostrate or not.

 

I haven't prostrated to a teacher since that time, except in a dream, but that time was different.

 

I also tried practicing prostrations for Ngondro, but only did a couple hundred altogether. It's great that they work for others but I don't see a point in them for me. It has nothing to do with pride, it's just something I feel no connection with. I often thought that it would've been better for me to do bows from seiza position, because I practiced Aikido for a couple years and got quite used to it, so that actually holds some meaning for me, while prostrations hold none.

 

However unlike Ralis, I don't think that prostrations hold no value in general or that they're there for the teacher or anything like that. I do think their value depends on the person quite a bit, just like with any other practice.

 

edit: BTW, whatever happened to SongsOfDistantEarth? I've sent him a PM some time ago but received no reply. Is he not around anymore?

Edited May 19, 2011 by Pero

[Aetherous]

Bodyoflight,

 

What exactly are the results you're seeking? What is the difference between the enlightenment you plan on achieving, and how you are right now?

[goldisheavy]

Odd. I do not recall in any of my studying and searching that the Buddha or Lao Tzu felt shame for beings who had less cultivation accomplishments than themselves. In fact the only responses I ever seem to clearly recall is that they had either A) compassion or B ) equanimity.

 

Buddha was not necessarily the good guy some people imagine:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.4.05.irel.html