The answer lies in the India/Nepal/Tibet Himalaya Regions afterall.. and definitely NOT in china/taiwan..

[doc benway]

Beautiful posts Oolong -

 

In the fourth clip he states, "no teacher is necessary."

This is the same message of jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello and others

I agree 100% and at the same time I question this -

Everyone who has said that no teacher is necessary has had a teacher - usually multiple.

So would they (we) have ever reached this realization without the teachers?

 

The truth is that no teacher is necessary and yet we need something or someone to push us way, far out.

As far as we can go and beyond that. As far as we need to go before we are at our wits end.

We need to run into the brick wall or end up on our face in the gutter.

Whether its chanting in a hut for 40 years or praying in a monastery or transforming jing to qi to shen to wu

Then we realize that we are already there.

 

As Alan Watts says, the answer is always right there in front of us (inside of us).

But we need to punish ourselves enough before we allow our selves to see it.

I'm not saying this is a conscious process but it does seem to be in play.

 

So, as some have already said, Body of Light may need to go to the Himalayas, whether he watches these wonderful clips or not.

Our minds are incredibly stubborn and will not yield before ready.

[goldisheavy]

Beautiful posts Oolong -

 

In the fourth clip he states, "no teacher is necessary."

This is the same message of jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello and others

I agree 100% and at the same time I question this -

Everyone who has said that no teacher is necessary has had a teacher - usually multiple.

So would they (we) have ever reached this realization without the teachers?

 

The real meaning of that phrase is that no single one teacher is necessary, that slavishly following one teacher is not necessary. The real meaning of that phrase is that no one is ever without a teacher, so there is no need to seek one out.

 

That phrase is spoken because so many people acted out of a crazy desperation, looking for some imaginary teacher from the fairy tales only to be sorely disappointed on many accounts: no magic powers, no wisdom, no moral perfection, no pleasantly smelling body, etc. Not only do people risk being disappointed like that when they chase the high teachers, but they are also selling themselves short.

 

The truth is that no teacher is necessary and yet we need something or someone to push us way, far out.

 

That something is called life, or friends on the Internet who aren't pussies, who can speak their mind without bullshit getting in the way.

 

Here's what Buddha said about it:

 

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."

 

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

 

What we need is good friend and not Gurus or teachers. Even Buddha thought so.

[Oolong Rabbit]

They are a pleasure to share. It's pretty amazing to watch his earlier clips and see this young man's spiritual evolution.

 

Beautiful posts Oolong -

 

In the fourth clip he states, "no teacher is necessary."

This is the same message of jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello and others

I agree 100% and at the same time I question this -

Everyone who has said that no teacher is necessary has had a teacher - usually multiple.

So would they (we) have ever reached this realization without the teachers?

 

The truth is that no teacher is necessary and yet we need something or someone to push us way, far out.

As far as we can go and beyond that. As far as we need to go before we are at our wits end.

We need to run into the brick wall or end up on our face in the gutter.

Whether its chanting in a hut for 40 years or praying in a monastery or transforming jing to qi to shen to wu

Then we realize that we are already there.

 

As Alan Watts says, the answer is always right there in front of us (inside of us).

But we need to punish ourselves enough before we allow our selves to see it.

I'm not saying this is a conscious process but it does seem to be in play.

 

So, as some have already said, Body of Light may need to go to the Himalayas, whether he watches these wonderful clips or not.

Our minds are incredibly stubborn and will not yield before ready.

 

Well said Steve. It is ironic isn't it.

[Vajrahridaya]

That path is one of no creativity and leads to a life of numb passivity!

 

In terms of that world view, nothing matters; if there are wars or not, if children go hungry or not, etc. etc. That view is not compassionate.

 

Thank goodness you have no idea what you are talking about, referencing absolutely no direct experience of the state of mind Vortex is talking about.

[ralis]

Thank goodness you have no idea what you are talking about, referencing absolutely no direct experience of the state of mind Vortex is talking about.

 

I do know what I am talking about. Is your Buddhist life one of creativity? If there are no preferences, then eating dirt would be no different than steak. Should taste the same.

[Vajrahridaya]

I do know what I am talking about. Is your Buddhist life one of creativity? If there are no preferences, then eating dirt would be no different than steak. Should taste the same.

 

That response alone reveals your lack of subtle objectivity. It has nothing to do with that, the state of mind Vortex is referencing is much subtler. You are reading your own inability to see past black and white thinking and that's it. It has to do with not grasping and enjoying the moment without craving. Your vision is so externalized, you can't see that it's referencing the state of mind. Not grasping at the inner arising of preferences, and letting those be as well, without the hindrance of confined intellectual self judgment but with the light of wisdom, seeing inter-connectivity, wisdom guides one without attachment and the knowledge of what desire is worthy and what is not from within is a natural ongoing flow in reference to each moment.

 

It's not talking about anything external to your own inner state of mind, concerning your own state of mind. It's about being openly aware of the conditions which arise within ones own brain, not some false everything is one so it doesn't matter if I breathe water or air B.S. that you're trying to project.

[doc benway]

That path is one of no creativity and leads to a life of numb passivity!

 

In terms of that world view, nothing matters; if there are wars or not, if children go hungry or not, etc. etc. That view is not compassionate.

I look at the attitudes Vortex was expressing more as a prescription intended to reduce suffering and to bring about a realization of the true nature of self. The attitudes are not a goal, not an end result, they are a practice. War and hunger matter a great deal to someone who practices these things. It tears their soul apart and they continue to practice. And some of them douse themselves with gasoline and light themselves on fire to protest the inequities in life but most, fortunately, continue to practice.

It is not that the prescription is intended to obliterate emotion and creativity, just teach us how to experience these things fully and put them in perspective without becoming so attached to them that we suffer.

 

Now I do think that a lot of practitioners erroneously confuse the method with the goal or outcome. But if they are patient, diligent, and dedicated, that passes. Eventually they see the method for what it is, just a tool. And I also think it is unhealthy and against the spirit of these methods to continually deny ourselves. The objective of life is not to be dispassionate or uncaring or numb or dull or an ascetic but to live fully. The true monk or sage is one who thoroughly enjoys life - they laugh and love but they also honor the practice for what it is.

 

I get your point, ralis, about the potential for numbness, passivity, and lack of creativity. I think that is an individual choice. The most creative and humane activities can be approached in a rote and robotic manner. And the most mundane, including the practice of non-attachment, requires great creativity, passion, and sensitivity if we are to be truly successful. I think this is something that distinguishes those who succeed from those who quit.

 

Not sure it makes complete sense or you will agree but I thought I'd share my thoughts.

[ralis]

That response alone reveals your lack of subtle objectivity. It has nothing to do with that, the state of mind Vortex is referencing is much subtler. You are reading your own inability to see past black and white thinking and that's it. It has to do with not grasping and enjoying the moment without craving. Your vision is so externalized, you can't see that it's referencing the state of mind. Not grasping at the inner arising of preferences, and letting those be as well, without the hindrance of confined intellectual self judgment but with the light of wisdom, seeing inter-connectivity, wisdom guides one without attachment and the knowledge of what desire is worthy and what is not from within is a natural ongoing flow in reference to each moment.

 

It's not talking about anything external to your own inner state of mind, concerning your own state of mind. It's about being openly aware of the conditions which arise within ones own brain, not some false everything is one so it doesn't matter if I breathe water or air B.S. that you're trying to project.

 

 

My point is there is no difference between the internal and external environments. Both are not separate experiences. It is a well known fact that certain Buddhist practitioners consume "the five meats" i.e, feces, urine, flesh, menstrual blood and semen. An example of that ritual is in the Padmasambhava text when he gave Yeshe Tsogyel the five meats which was done as proof that she had no discriminatory preferences. That is both internal and external.

 

The problem I have with the Buddhist narrative here is one of generalized, vague explanations. Never are experiences of a personal nature expounded upon. The Buddhist narrative is a repeat of texts and teachings from various Lamas. Just the same DO and "it is so subtle subtle and even more subtle."

[lifeforce]

certain Buddhist practitioners consume "the five meats" i.e, feces, urine, flesh, menstrual blood and semen. An example of that ritual is in the Padmasambhava text when he gave Yeshe Tsogyel the five meats which was done as proof that she had no discriminatory preferences

 

That is absolutely disgusting !

How can these people class themselves as compassionate and wise ?

[ralis]

That is absolutely disgusting !

How can these people class themselves as compassionate and wise ?

 

I think this is the text where this ritual recorded.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dakini-Teachings-Padmasambhava/dp/9627341363/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_2

[lifeforce]

I think this is the text where this ritual recorded.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dakini-Teachings-Padmasambhava/dp/9627341363/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_2

 

I think I'll skip that book thanks, ralis.

[Mandrake]

BodyofLight,

 

Here's a few clips you should really watch:

 

This guy has lots of cultivation, and speaks openly about his mistaken desires to go to the Himalayas. I think he has achieved much more on his own, than holed up in a cave reciting mantras with that hermit. That having been said however, I think he needed to make the journey to shatter his illusions. Om the other hand, maybe you will find what you are looking for. Would you be content to spend the rest of your life sitting in a cave reciting mantras? Or are you looking for a guru that will teach you how to develop siddhis?

 

What is good with the videos? I watched them, and didn't find anything useful. He got irritated by the hermit reciting some mantras! He has arguments that amount to nothing more than blanket statements, without follow up. He doesn't understand the hermit - what are the hermit's thoughts on this guy? There are two sides.

 

Who says this is a good cultivator? Must I watch through the 400 other videos to find out? My intention is not to be sarcastic, I just don't find these videos useful. There's most probably better material out there to through into the discussion.

 

 

Mandrake

[ralis]

I think I'll skip that book thanks, ralis.

 

I am looking forward as to what Vajraji says about this perverse ritual!

[Mandrake]

That is absolutely disgusting !

How can these people class themselves as compassionate and wise ?

 

You think that all the girls who like to swallow are people full of hate, propagating disintegration of fellow humans - is this what you mean?

 

You know that throughout history, people have thought that female sexuality, homosexuality, premarital sex, pork, blood sausages, race mixing, twins, people with disabilites... were disgusting, which resulted in institutionalized killing of these people and those committed to named acts.

 

Mandrake

[ralis]

You think that all the girls who like to swallow are people full of hate, propagating disintegration of fellow humans - is this what you mean?

 

You know that throughout history, people have thought that female sexuality, homosexuality, premarital sex, pork, blood sausages, race mixing, twins, people with disabilites... were disgusting, which resulted in institutionalized killing of these people and those committed to named acts.

 

Mandrake

 

This ritual was for both men and women. Said ritual was to prove a point about non discrimination of experienced phenomena.

[lifeforce]

You think that all the girls who like to swallow are people full of hate, propagating disintegration of fellow humans - is this what you mean?

 

You know that throughout history, people have thought that female sexuality, homosexuality, premarital sex, pork, blood sausages, race mixing, twins, people with disabilites... were disgusting, which resulted in institutionalized killing of these people and those committed to named acts.

 

Mandrake

 

So are you advocating the consuming of bodily waste ?

[三江源]

I am looking forward as to what Vajraji says about this perverse ritual!

 

Conquering aversion eh.. who'd have thought anyone would consider that a spiritual excercise?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!

[Mandrake]

This ritual was for both men and women. Said ritual was to prove a point about non discrimination of experienced phenomena.

 

 

 

So are you advocating the consuming of bodily waste ?

 

Umm guys, this happens every day during sexual frolicking, both women and men.

 

If a reader is determined to, my comment can be interpreted as advocacy, with much strain. But to be clear for those with overactive minds: no, I don't.

 

What I find horrendous is moral systems based on purity/unpurity. You can read the Pentateuch, and watch the havoc this kind of mentality has done through the abrahamitic religious and in different cultural systems. It is a primitive morality, tied with a fetisch for penalty, and not at all a moral system based on the suffering of individuals.

 

Talibans see us westerners eat pork, and you can ask them what is the correct treatment of us in their opinion.

 

Finally; the ritual in question involves "five meats", "five nectars", and is symbolic - it is far from the every week Sunday feast; and, I'm not a tibetan buddhist.

 

 

Mandrake

[Mandrake]

Conquering aversion eh.. who'd have thought anyone would consider that a spiritual excercise?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!

 

Yes my gawd Cat, incredible. More aversion is what the world needs (*praises from the audience*). I'm certain that there must be some charity-founder out there, a so called "good guy", who has some golden showers in his personal closet. I'll go fetch my axe - who wanna join?

 

 

Mandrake

[ralis]

 

Finally; the ritual in question involves "five meats", "five nectars", and is symbolic - it is far from the every week Sunday feast; and, I'm not a tibetan buddhist.

 

 

Mandrake

 

It is not symbolic and on Tibetan Lama came to Santa Fe and performed this ritual. Although the ingredients were watered down. I did not participate.

 

You have missed the entire point of my argument and was meant to challenge the Buddhist point of view as to their insistence on an internal world view only.

[C T]

 

You have missed the entire point of my argument and was meant to challenge the Buddhist point of view as to their insistence on an internal world view only.

 

(slapping hand on lap) OH right!! You are hereby absolved of not stating this right off at the beginning but instead chose to go about it in the roundabout way by taking a poke at the tradition first... jeez, sometimes the rationales behind your justifications almost smack of an astuteness bordering on the scale of a genius!

[Oolong Rabbit]

What is good with the videos? I watched them, and didn't find anything useful. He got irritated by the hermit reciting some mantras! He has arguments that amount to nothing more than blanket statements, without follow up. He doesn't understand the hermit - what are the hermit's thoughts on this guy? There are two sides.

 

Who says this is a good cultivator? Must I watch through the 400 other videos to find out? My intention is not to be sarcastic, I just don't find these videos useful. There's most probably better material out there to through into the discussion.

 

 

Mandrake

 

Well at least 3 people liked them. It sounds like you only had a very superficial understanding of what he was transmitting, but I am not really interested in wasting my time arguing about whether coke or pepsi tastes better. I didn't say he was a good cuktivator since that's pretty relative. I said he has a lot of cultivation, which I can sense. Can I prove it to you in a way that will satisfy your rational mind, no.

 

If there's better material out there please find it and share with us. I am not being sarcastic either.

 

Kind Regards!

[Dainin]

I think that the OP would benefit from a viewing of The Silent Flute (aka Circle of Iron), a 1970s David Carradine movie that addresses the issue of travelling to remote regions in search of the "highest masters" and "The Answer". Bruce Lee and James Coburn co-wrote the script if I remember correctly...

[doc benway]

Well at least 3 people liked them. It sounds like you only had a very superficial understanding of what he was transmitting, but I am not really interested in wasting my time arguing about whether coke or pepsi tastes better. I didn't say he was a good cuktivator since that's pretty relative. I said he has a lot of cultivation, which I can sense. Can I prove it to you in a way that will satisfy your rational mind, no.

 

If there's better material out there please find it and share with us. I am not being sarcastic either.

 

Kind Regards!

I think you could feel the truth in his eyes and in his smile.

[Vajrahridaya]

That is absolutely disgusting !

How can these people class themselves as compassionate and wise ?

 

It's for the purpose of conquering your prejudices and pre-conditions for happiness. This ritual really can only be done if you have a certain state of awareness known as Rigpa, and you are being given this as an attempt to truly integrate rigpa (pure awareness) with all matter.

 

Also, the practice of eating meat from the perspective of Tantra has to do with integrating ones realization with the mind stream of the body you are eating in order to help liberate that mind stream connected to that particular body.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Vajrahridaya