The answer lies in the India/Nepal/Tibet Himalaya Regions afterall.. and definitely NOT in china/taiwan..

[Simplicity Rules]

Vajrahridaya,

 

STOP stalking me through PMs. I don't appreciate your trash talk. Whatever you need to tell me, talk to me here and directly. By the amount of posts you write I can make many assumptions, but I have a job, a life, work and an actual spiritual practice. The time I spend here, I do to read something worthwhile, say a goldisheavy, otis or a Manitou. Sorry, no time for your types.

 

Why are you piss scared that I am going to talk to ChNN? Pero and CowTao and other Posse of yours - can think what they want. If I want to open this thread and show it to My Teacher (of course without editing you silly - complete thread) and if he wants to read it - who is Pero or Zero or some other idiot to tell me NOT to? Now are YOU guys going to take decisions on HIS behalf too? Are you going to decide what disturbs him or not? You "Buddhists" act like a ghetto and jump and attack everyone who disagrees with you. Look at this thread and two other threads on the other page. All you and CowTao do is show others "wrong" and preach. Give it a rest!

 

He has always welcomed me warmly and has been a frequent visitor to my home, and I am not saying this to earn some points in your stupid pissing contest - I say this because I know him extremely well and understand how busy he is and what is or is not a waste of his time. So, yes, all you can do is sit here and scream, do it. He should know that his "student/s" behave in very "Buddhistic" ways in public and about the cordial threats sent to others. In fact, he is only three streets away from me. So yes, he should know about such discussions, after all, he gave you transmission according to you!

 

I know neither you nor Ralis. I don't need to. How the both of you conduct yourselves here is enough. And Ralis has certainly earned nothing but my appreciation.

 

Moderators - Is there a way to stop Vajra from sending me more such PMs? I don't have time for trash talk like this. I am told you are an old hand at stalking people who disagree with you on this forum. I am here to learn and not preach, in spite of how I might have come across on this forum. It was a mistake I commented on this thread, and I didn't realize the kind of E-Sangha leftovers I would run into here.

 

First of all, you don't know the history between ralis and I. His constant chasing me around, his history of insults. He's been kicked out a number of times for causing hostility. You are obviously new here and don't know the history. I've been here for 3 years and most every Buddhist agrees with my posts concerning Buddhism. Ralis is anti-Buddhist, he doesn't like Buddhism. That is his view, and you can read his history on this.

 

Second of all, for you to come in here out of no where and just decide you can take my posts out of context and send them to the Dzogchen Community, is just out of the question. Why don't you debate my points like a person, instead of being a bully yourself? Your post to CowTao was absolutely out of range, and without merit. You don't even know the guy and you don't know me. You don't know our history and you don't know GIH's history here, who has also been kicked out a fair number of times.

 

Where do you get this idea that you are the soul representer of Dzogchen Justice? How dare you threaten me with the Dzogchen Community! First of all, if you had of read my posts with any open sensitivity, you'd have an entirely different take on what I was trying to say, as well, you would really need to read my past posts. Unless you really are just like ralis. Or just maybe ralis under another name? You are absolutely confused, due to ignorance of all of our history here.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Simplicity Rules

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya,

 

Stop stalking me through PMs.

 

I don't appreciate your trash talk. Whatever you need to tell me, talk to me here and directly. Why are you piss scared that I am going to talk to ChNN? Pero and CowTao and other Posse of yours - can think what they want. If I want to open this thread and show it to My Teacher (of course without editing you silly - complete thread) and if he wants to read it - who is Pero or Zero or some other idiot to tell me NOT to? Now are YOU doing to take decisions on HIS behalf too? So, yes, all you can do is sit here and scream, do it. He should know that his "student/s" behave in very Buddhistic ways in public and how cordial messages are sent to others.

 

 

I know neither you nor Ralis. I don't need to. How the both of you conduct yourselves here is enough. And Ralis has certainly earned nothing but my appreciation.

 

Moderators - Is there a way to stop Vajra from sending me more such PMs? I don't have time for trash talk like this. I am told you are an old hand at stalking people who disagree with you on this forum. I am here to learn and not preach, in spite of how I might have come across on this forum. It was a mistake I commented on this thread, and I didn't realize the kind of E-Sangha leftovers I would run into here.

 

Stalk you? I sent one message saying that you are wrong to think you know what's going on here without knowing the history. You just got here, I've been here for 2 years, and I've known plenty of these people here for just as long. If you want to talk about stalking, you need to look at ralis. You made a threat... a very silly childish threat, and I put that in the single message I sent you. Trash talk? Your reaction is indicative of your state of mind.

 

Stalk people?? An old hand at stalking people? Wow... the ignorance here is astounding! Being blamed for things that other people do to me is really interesting, it takes me back to Elementary school.

[Vajrahridaya]

You making public my email to you says volumes about your state of mind and understanding of reality...

 

You couldn't have a human interaction with me in private... That does reveal fear, I must say.

 

It's good you do this, so that maybe you can think about it later and see where you are coming from, in a more objective light.

 

EDIT: And of course I'm going to send that to you in PM. It's absolutely off topic, and personal, so I sent you a private message concerning it...

 

Wow, some people???

Edited June 3, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Simplicity Rules]

You couldn't have a human interaction with me in private..

 

:lol:

 

And this is how you have been interacting here, with everyone who is not nodding their heads or sending lovey-dovey icons at you. You have done this to not just Ralis but many others on this very thread. It is anyone's guess that probably you have some very deep fear, unfulfilled life pattern or just a deep resentment towards "real" world and people therein? It is interesting that everything you accuse others of is really applicable to yourself! If only you took a moment to notice. Stop noticing the CowTaos who applaud at your digs and sneer along obscenely, take a moment to look at many others here who have valuable things to say which may not necessarily fit your deeply rooted dogma, and listen with an open mind. Even you may eventually learn something simple and valuable. Learn to listen before you expect others to listen to you. English is not my first language, but I don't that not being the case with you has done any good in making your posts crisp, coherent or connected.

 

But, it's your direct experience so it must be the absolute holy grail of truth.

 

That response alone reveals your lack of subtle objectivity. It has nothing to do with that, the state of mind Vortex is referencing is much subtler. You are reading your own inability to see past black and white thinking and that's it. Your vision is so externalized, you can't see that it's referencing the state of mind.

 

Basically Ralis, you don't understand because you lack the capacity at this time, you cleverly spin justifications for your dichotomous critical thinking.

 

He's very good at intellectual self foolery.

 

Like I said, if you and ralis don't get it, you're not ready to get it.

 

I'm sure you are not correct due to your lack of study, which is fine.

 

It's clear you don't understand the teachings and don't care to, so be it. There is no point in continuing this discussion.

 

Wow, your experience really is trapped in your head isn't it? That's sad. My experiences as backed by the experiences of countless Siddhas and Mahasiddhas from the tradition.

 

I meant everything he's said to me silly. If you look at the history it's all disparaging remarks. Insulting my writing, insulting Buddhism. Anyway... whatever... you guys might come from the same sandbox, I don't know?

 

You'll stay unevolved and erroneously proud of it.

 

There is no use having this discussion with you.

 

This is why I feel it's pointless to have this discussion because none of my points of getting through to you.

 

I was the one being forgiving about other spiritual traditions outside of Buddhism.

 

Do you read well? Is English even your language, you seem to write it well enough.

 

Wow, I really don't belong here, I'm surrounded by

 

I'm going back to boards where my posts are actually understood and appreciated.

 

You people don't know how to read.

 

How would you expect me to respond to such foolishness?

 

Nice cowardly self protection.

 

Wow, this forum is filled with egos that blame and point fingers. I've never actually experienced this outside of this forum.

 

I definitely belong with Buddhists who don't take debating views nearly as personally as you subjective monistic idealists. Yes, I've just pigeon holed you guys. I'm not in your tribe, thank merit.

 

You and plenty of others here's responses are not compassionate, they are reactions, they are responses that arise from the fear of having a position that is being challenged by what I share.

 

For all the different times you have declared since yesterday how "done" you are with this thread and forum, how "incapable" people here are to understand the depth of your realization and posts - you sure lack basic self-control. You are still hovering around with a bad case of verbal diarrhea. At least stop making statements you don't mean. I doubt there are any forums around where such behavior will be appreciated, Buddhist or not. So, there really is no place to go.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Simplicity Rules

[Vajrahridaya]

verbal diarrhea... place to go.

 

Ah well... I tried. Without rhyme or reason, people and their reactions.

 

The pulling things out of context, and placing them together in an attempt at self justification is not that creative, see I can do it too...

 

It also reveals your level of focus. I have confidence you'll get it one of these days...

Edited June 3, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

Just one question to this poster Simplicity Rules - do you truly understand the basic precept of taking the samaya vows?

 

Fair enough if its someone else, but such behavior coming from you, one who claims lineage affiliation, is totally out of line. To prevent further damage, Its good if you will acknowledge your vow breakage immediately with your sangha and your yidam, assuming you do have one?

 

Its obvious you are currently experiencing some sort of blockage-related aversion because you have taken an on-line discussion, which is fundamentally devoid of permanence, made it into your bardo of becoming, and in the process, imbued it with a reality by breathing life into it. Reminds me of how the Tibetan yogis create tulpas to help them process some their blockages.

 

Pero was absolutely on the ball with his observation of what you have added to this discussion.

[goldisheavy]

Just one question to this poster Simplicity Rules - do you truly understand the basic precept of taking the samaya vows?

 

Fair enough if its someone else, but such behavior coming from you, one who claims lineage affiliation, is totally out of line. To prevent further damage, Its good if you will acknowledge your vow breakage immediately with your sangha and your yidam, assuming you do have one?

 

Could this be one of the functions of a lineage? In addition to transmitting knowledge, lineage also keeps people in line. Do I understand you correctly, CowTao?

[Vajrahridaya]

Could this be one of the functions of a lineage? In addition to transmitting knowledge, lineage also keeps people in line. Do I understand you correctly, CowTao?

 

Hi GIH,

 

You may just react in order to justify your view and not be open enough to get this, but yes... in a sense.

 

The samayas/precepts are there in order that the flow of your mind stream does not get stuck in murky whirl pools, get stagnant and lost in out flowing tangents contradictory to the goal, so that every bit of information contained in your mind stream may reach the expansive and vast ocean. Until you are truly established in Rigpa, 24/7, the precepts and disciplines are there merely to align your mind with the highest level of potential.

 

So yes, lineage is meant to help keep people in line with the highest order, for everyones own good, including your own. But, it's all relative, not absolute.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

Could this be one of the functions of a lineage? In addition to transmitting knowledge, lineage also keeps people in line. Do I understand you correctly, CowTao?

Its not a function of a lineage, more like a function that comes with the territory of one who proclaims to have a root guru. If there is no root guru used as some sort of badge of affiliation, then of what use are speaking about the samayas? Since this poster openly declared to have a lineage, i merely aimed this as a reminder that he could have acted in a less hypocritical way.

 

If one day you become a guru (i know you dont have much affinity with this word, but nevermind, i am just hypothesizing here) and students begin gathering at your feet, i would think that they are there for your wisdom and guidance thereon, and so you become a personification of wisdom. If these students are to accept the transference of this wisdom, then there is process of assimilation whereby they put your teachings to the test. In so doing, they undertake a responsibility, not to you, but to themselves, to fulfill their duties, as you have done yours as their teacher. Whether you expect this responsibility or not is not the factor - the onus lies with the student to investigate their own understanding in translating into their life what you give them. Even if you may have given useless, rubbished teachings, if a student have the discipline of samayas within his or her own mind, then even rubbished teachings, in other's eyes, could turn out to be golden teachings in this student's eyes. So samayas work like that, in a sort of mysterious way.

[Vajrahridaya]

Even if you may have given useless, rubbished teachings, if a student have the discipline of samayas within his or her own mind, then even rubbished teachings, in other's eyes, could turn out to be golden teachings in this student's eyes. So samayas work like that, in a sort of mysterious way.

 

"A true disciple gets true teachings from a false guru."

 

It's that whole, "life is a mirror" thing at work... LOL!

Edited June 3, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Pero]

Why are you piss scared that I am going to talk to ChNN? Pero and CowTao and other Posse of yours - can think what they want.

First of all, I'm not anybodies posse but my own. I actually don't agree with the way Vajrahridaya does things at all.

 

If I want to open this thread and show it to My Teacher (of course without editing you silly - complete thread) and if he wants to read it - who is Pero or Zero or some other idiot to tell me NOT to? Now are YOU guys going to take decisions on HIS behalf too? Are you going to decide what disturbs him or not?

You're right, I'm a nobody. I decide nothing for others, however I am free to express my opinion in any way I like. And my opinion is that this would be a waste of time for Rinpoche. Heck, I actually think it's a waste of time for everyone involved. Anyway, it is unlikely he changed his mind about discussions on Dzogchen since the E-Sangha days, so I told you he would not approve of this, like he did not back then. I think that if he saw how you people behaved here now, his opinion against it would be even more cemented.

 

Also, I don't feel fear because you want to tell Rinpoche about it. If anything, I feel a little sad about it all.

 

He has always welcomed me warmly and has been a frequent visitor to my home, and I am not saying this to earn some points in your stupid pissing contest - I say this because I know him extremely well and understand how busy he is and what is or is not a waste of his time. So, yes, all you can do is sit here and scream, do it. He should know that his "student/s" behave in very "Buddhistic" ways in public and about the cordial threats sent to others.

Fine, perhaps I should send him an email to complain about your threat and insults too? Don't worry, I'd never do that.

 

For every thing you accuse others of, you're doing the same. Like I said in the begining, you just added a lot to the "drama". If you hadn't showed up in this thread it's possible it would've died out by now.

 

I know neither you nor Ralis. I don't need to. How the both of you conduct yourselves here is enough. And Ralis has certainly earned nothing but my appreciation.

 

Look, you're a total newb here. You don't know the past posts of Ralis (and GoldIsHeavy for that matter).

Also, this way of discussing seem to me to be something pretty normal here, actually it's probably milder now if compared to the past.

Every one of the posters engaged in this debate is an adult, even if the behaviour might not necessarily suggest so. So since we're adults I imagine we can take responsibility for ourselves.

[ralis]

Vajrahridaya,

 

STOP stalking me through PMs. I don't appreciate your trash talk. Whatever you need to tell me, talk to me here and directly. By the amount of posts you write I can make many assumptions, but I have a job, a life, work and an actual spiritual practice. The time I spend here, I do to read something worthwhile, say a goldisheavy, otis or a Manitou. Sorry, no time for your types.

 

Why are you piss scared that I am going to talk to ChNN? Pero and CowTao and other Posse of yours - can think what they want. If I want to open this thread and show it to My Teacher (of course without editing you silly - complete thread) and if he wants to read it - who is Pero or Zero or some other idiot to tell me NOT to? Now are YOU guys going to take decisions on HIS behalf too? Are you going to decide what disturbs him or not? You "Buddhists" act like a ghetto and jump and attack everyone who disagrees with you. Look at this thread and two other threads on the other page. All you and CowTao do is show others "wrong" and preach. Give it a rest!

 

He has always welcomed me warmly and has been a frequent visitor to my home, and I am not saying this to earn some points in your stupid pissing contest - I say this because I know him extremely well and understand how busy he is and what is or is not a waste of his time. So, yes, all you can do is sit here and scream, do it. He should know that his "student/s" behave in very "Buddhistic" ways in public and about the cordial threats sent to others. In fact, he is only three streets away from me. So yes, he should know about such discussions, after all, he gave you transmission according to you!

 

I know neither you nor Ralis. I don't need to. How the both of you conduct yourselves here is enough. And Ralis has certainly earned nothing but my appreciation.

 

Moderators - Is there a way to stop Vajra from sending me more such PMs? I don't have time for trash talk like this. I am told you are an old hand at stalking people who disagree with you on this forum. I am here to learn and not preach, in spite of how I might have come across on this forum. It was a mistake I commented on this thread, and I didn't realize the kind of E-Sangha leftovers I would run into here.

 

 

Vajraji just came back from being banned for three months, so I guess he has to make up for lost time. I was given a break from the forum last year for one week for challenging Vajraji's narrative.

 

He always has some need to one up anyone that challenges his narrative. His experiences are always more profound, more subtle and and better than most others.

 

He considers himself the final arbiter of absolute truth.

Edited June 3, 2011 by ralis

[goldisheavy]

Its not a function of a lineage, more like a function that comes with the territory of one who proclaims to have a root guru. If there is no root guru used as some sort of badge of affiliation, then of what use are speaking about the samayas? Since this poster openly declared to have a lineage, i merely aimed this as a reminder that he could have acted in a less hypocritical way.

 

If one day you become a guru (i know you dont have much affinity with this word, but nevermind, i am just hypothesizing here)

 

You're right. I will henceforth never become a guru. I vow to only become either a friend or a jester (or both) and nothing else. Having seen the harm the way of the guru does, I renounce that way. Having seen the benefit of a system where information is openly shared and people learn from one another without becoming crazy with worship, I embrace openness.

 

Now in order to accommodate the crooked and stupid nature of convention, I also embrace being low-key as an alternative to keeping secrets. But this is very different in terms of intention. My intention is set on openness. I am specifically talking about vital life-saving spiritual information that belongs to no one, to no person, not to me, not to any Buddha or Guru, not to any lineage and not to God or any other imaginary entity.

 

As for gurus, they can continue to appear for a while longer, but eventually I will eat them all alive, without exception.

 

The era when one human being dominates another is coming to a close. A friend is more than adequate for learning. Authoritarian learning environments are harmful.

 

and students begin gathering at your feet, i would think that they are there for your wisdom and guidance thereon, and so you become a personification of wisdom. If these students are to accept the transference of this wisdom, then there is process of assimilation whereby they put your teachings to the test. In so doing, they undertake a responsibility, not to you, but to themselves, to fulfill their duties,

 

This is nonsense. Why is that? Because learning is a joy, it is not a duty that you must do gritting your teeth. People who want to learn and grow do so because it is natural and it's fun, and it's beneficial. It's not a duty, which sounds arbitrarily forceful and commanding.

 

Alternatively you can think of it this way. We have a duty to impose as few duties as possible on fellow human beings. We should try to build consensus and we should try to come together as peers. So if there is a duty there, it's a very subtle one and it's nothing whatsoever like what you may think of as a "duty." For example, you have a duty to be honest before thyself. What does it mean? It doesn't necessarily mean anything specific in the social context. It only has a secret meaning.

 

We all have some wants, and I am no exception. We can come together and discuss what we want, and we can agree on something.

 

In this kind of atmosphere there is no need for duty. The world is not a hostile place (contrary to how it appears to the uninitiated), and people are not "enemies until proven otherwise." People are friends, even if some of them are driven mad by dogma and need a serious spanking. So there is no need to hide, to be all covert and cowardly.

 

as you have done yours as their teacher.

 

I was lucky because my teacher(s) removed my chains. Since I deeply appreciate what my teacher has done, I will now remove the chains from everyone I meet, especially if I notice that people are uncomfortable in their chains. If I see that someone enjoys their chains, I may let it slide.

 

I was also lucky because my parents loved me fully, completely and very deeply, so I didn't grow up with issues of feeling inadequate or unworthy or something less than awesome. And because I am grateful to my parents, I will endeavor for everyone to feel as complete as I feel today. People get arrogant and greedy because they are compensating for inner inadequacies. A huge reason why people continue to feel inadequate is because there are lots of people around who keep sending disempowering messages, like, "You are nothing without a Guru." These people come up with a thousand reason why something can't be done. Well, I am here to permanently reverse all that. That game is over. New game is now beginning.

 

And who am I to say all that? Well, I am simply the one who decided to take responsibility. I am taking charge because none of you are strong enough to do it, and nor are any of you wise enough to be able to discern your ass from your elbow, so it falls to me. And naturally, my celestial friends are coming to help as well. They will be showing up in your neighborhood and on your friendly TV shows as well, and basically anywhere you turn.

 

There is nothing worse than the false humility in this entire world. It's a huge roadblock. People are confused. They think they need to spank themselves and feel worthless and powerless in order to be accepted. And they consider this to be "humility." In fact it's pure garbage and it's fooling no one of any importance or consequence.

 

Whether you expect this responsibility or not is not the factor - the onus lies with the student to investigate their own understanding in translating into their life what you give them. Even if you may have given useless, rubbished teachings, if a student have the discipline of samayas within his or her own mind, then even rubbished teachings, in other's eyes, could turn out to be golden teachings in this student's eyes. So samayas work like that, in a sort of mysterious way.

 

Observe how I work, because I am even more mysterious than samayas and other unnecessary jargon.

[Vajrahridaya]

He considers himself the final arbiter of absolute truth.

 

For 2 years here I've been saying there's no absolute truth. All religious dogma stems from the idea that there's an absolute truth.

 

Buddhism does not teach absolute truth.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Bluefront]

stuff

 

And once you are in the himalays you will look for the most spiritually supercharged rock to sit your ass on.

 

And once you have the rock, you will look for the perfect posture.

 

When you eventually find your posture you will look for the perfect state of mind.

 

When you eventually fail to find whats not there to begin with, you will excuse it with "oh well, guess it wasn't the perfect rock/guru/posture."

 

And you are back on square 1.. still searching. And the circle continues.

 

Doesn't it drive you fucking nuts?!

[C T]

 

I was lucky because my teacher(s) removed my chains. Since I deeply appreciate what my teacher has done, I will now remove the chains from everyone I meet, especially if I notice that people are uncomfortable in their chains. If I see that someone enjoys their chains, I may let it slide.

 

Well, I am here to permanently reverse all that. That game is over. New game is now beginning.

 

And who am I to say all that? Well, I am simply the one who decided to take responsibility. I am taking charge because none of you are strong enough to do it, and nor are any of you wise enough to be able to discern your ass from your elbow, so it falls to me. And naturally, my celestial friends are coming to help as well. They will be showing up in your neighborhood and on your friendly TV shows as well, and basically anywhere you turn.

 

Observe how I work, because I am even more mysterious than samayas and other unnecessary jargon.

Wonderful! Wishing you a swift realization!

 

Beneath all this loud gloss of anti-authoritarianism, which is absolutely great, because it shows immense conviction and commitment, where is the difference in terms of essence, between your confidence, and someone who is equally confident, but whose conviction lies in the path of devotion to the guru (personification of buddha nature within each being)? After all, devotion is the foundation of any good friendship. As long as individuals fully commit to what they want, and not play dippy toes with their spiritual aspirations, then i do not see why teachers would discourage this in a student.

 

If anyone out there who claims to be a teacher, but in the course of their work, decide to play the game of selfish and crooked manipulation with students - and i know some do, on many levels actually - then they deserve whatever scandal and open criticism that goes with their lackluster and superficial ways. I hope all these people are exposed, the sooner the better.

[Aaron]

For 2 years here I've been saying there's no absolute truth. All religious dogma stems from the idea that there's an absolute truth.

 

Buddhism does not teach absolute truth.

 

 

The problem Vaj is you say this, but I don't think you believe it. The way you present things as facts seems to say the exact opposite. I would recommend you reacquaint yourself with the eightfold path before you continue to interact with others on this forum. In particular pay attention to right action and right speech, two areas I think you (and a few other Buddhists on this forum) could use a refresher.

 

Debate was only continued so long as one could remain detached from their position. In many cases a participant would take a stance completely opposite of what he believed in order to understand the dialogue more clearly. You don't seem to be debating at all, but rather arguing, which is a completely different manner of expression. This is the reason you say you will leave, but don't. You are attached to this discussion.

 

You are a man. A flower is a flower. Words are just dust. Remember that.

 

Aaron

[goldisheavy]

Wonderful! Wishing you a swift realization!

 

Beneath all this loud gloss of anti-authoritarianism, which is absolutely great, because it shows immense conviction and commitment, where is the difference in terms of essence, between your confidence, and someone who is equally confident, but whose conviction lies in the path of devotion to the guru (personification of buddha nature within each being)?

 

The difference is one of compassion and wisdom. Someone who is devoted to the Guru is not equally as compassionate or equally as wise, because that someone is doing harm, but doesn't see how it is in fact harm. Such person thinks, "I enjoyed this system, so let's spread it around."

 

I do more than this. I look around the whole world and not just myself. I consider a lot more than just myself. I also consider which beliefs work well together. For example, Guru-disciple is a belief that works well with a belief in a monarchy. It's very resonant with a belief in a King, in dogma, in the highest authority, tribalism, clannish attitudes, etc. My strand looks like this: open society, flat power hierarchies, democracy, science, peer to peer spiritual learning, open information exchange, non-tribalism. All these ideas in the strand resonate and support each other.

 

So as you can see when I support what I do I have much broader vision and goals than just spirituality. There is nothing that I fail to consider. My choice is holistic.

 

After all, devotion is the foundation of any good friendship.

 

I disagree completely. A foundation of any good relationship is one of trust, such as between friends.

 

As long as individuals fully commit to what they want, and not play dippy toes with their spiritual aspirations, then i do not see why teachers would discourage this in a student.

 

You don't see it, eh? I believe you do see it very well.

 

If anyone out there who claims to be a teacher, but in the course of their work, decide to play the game of selfish and crooked manipulation with students - and i know some do, on many levels actually -

 

Oh, so you do see it after all. I'm not surprised.

 

then they deserve whatever scandal and open criticism that goes with their lackluster and superficial ways. I hope all these people are exposed, the sooner the better.

 

Sure, but the students don't deserve this debacle, do they? Also, gurus themselves deserve a good learning environment, and I am here to provide it for them, by being a friend and a jester.

 

This post costs $500 dollars. Where should I send the bill CowTao? Only kidding! Just kidding about the money bit and the bill.

[ralis]

For 2 years here I've been saying there's no absolute truth. All religious dogma stems from the idea that there's an absolute truth.

 

Buddhism does not teach absolute truth.

 

Dogma is a belief system or doctrine that is religious in nature and is established by the authoritarian hierarchy in any religious belief system, including Buddhism. Therefor, your statement is incorrect.

[Vajrahridaya]

The problem Vaj is you say this, but I don't think you believe it.

 

I know it, directly. This is why Buddhism is not a religion. It's not from the words of a powerful god, who may have bliss and immense expansion. There is so much which comes out of the light illuminating the formless unconscious that can fool one, because it can feel so good and deep, so real.

 

All religions, even Shamanistic traditions teach about an all powerful God. The experience for the highly trained shaman or theist comes in communing with the formless realms. It comes from the state I spoke of when I talked about the formless realms and the impressions that are in the alayavijnana (storehouse consciousness) or even collective unconscious. Without "right view", the first of the 8 fold noble path that you mentioned, these impressions, so blissful, so sweet, seemingly pure, one attaches to as ultimate Self. This is a subtle, deep dogma.

 

Anyway... this is what I talk about, how non-dogmatic D.O. is. At the same time, since these impressions are inherently empty, even these bliss states, these "I Am's" and they arise dependent with everything else, they are true as well, as everything is true, because nothing is true. But, what is the truth that liberates one from truths? Not an all subsuming truth, but an all emptying truth.

 

Anyway, you believe your experiences reify a supreme God, beyond all concepts, etc. You are very attached to this way of seeing and interpreting your experience, it grants you plenty of peace. But, it doesn't give you omniscience into the way things happen, as you're subsumed by the peace, you don't care to investigate deeper, you feel enlightened! So, when the cosmos dissolves, you will absorb into this state of bliss and light, loose consciousness, and be reborn again in the next cosmic cycle to do it over again. Which is fine, it's a dance! There's nothing wrong with it as the Shaivites like to say, the blissful dance of Shiva. But, I for one am not into unconscious recycling. I don't want to be subsumed by an all absorbing principle. To not be re-absorbed at the end of a cosmic eon is called attaining (sanskrit) samyaksambodhi known as having the attainment of (tibetan) kadag chenpo. This means one has seen through all states, has no anchor, is not attached to even the light, not attached to the experience of not being attached to the light, not being attached to a being who is having the experience of not being attached to the light, so one is not even attached to non-attachment. The realization of D.O. is absolutely complete, without residue. All beginningless causes for bondage are turned into conditions for manifesting consciously and endlessly for the sake of sentient beings as all selfish obscurations have been cured, including the monistic and ignorant ideal that all things are god and "gods will."

 

I hope this helps someone along the way. Even though it will most likely be deflected by you Twinner by saying that I'm not steeped enough in the truth of the 8 fold noble path on a continuous basis. Which I will just agree with.

[Vajrahridaya]

Dogma is a belief system or doctrine that is religious in nature and is established by the authoritarian hierarchy in any religious belief system, including Buddhism. Therefor, your statement is incorrect.

 

Only because you don't understand Buddhism. Sure, on the surface, but not in essence as it's empty of essence, nothing to attach to if you really, really get it. Of course there is a hierarchy of knowledge, of course there are those within conventional reality that are more in touch with the nature of things than others! Just like there is a hierarchy in the kitchen, from prep to sous chef to executive chef. There is always going to be a hierarchy. Just like in a school, from janitor to the teachers to the principle. Just like in government... etc.

 

This is just how conventional reality works and it won't end, cycle, after cycle. That's the dance buddy. It's when the hierarchy is abused that there needs to be a revamping of the system, which the Dalai Lama has done many times through various births. Not every Dalai Lama was the Dalai Lama due to political tension and abuse of the hierarchy within the system. But, all in all... that's what he did, especially when he supported the Rime' movement in order to get all the lineages together and not to hate each other.

 

Anyway... you only see the surface, that's my point. You choose to see the negative, and you are embittered by this. So when someone like me who sees the positive comes around, you're like, "Hey... he has no idea what he's talking about, because it's bad... not good."

 

You focus on the dark side of the moon ralis... sadly.

[Vajrahridaya]

My strand looks like this: open society, flat power hierarchies, democracy, science, peer to peer spiritual learning, open information exchange, non-tribalism. All these ideas in the strand resonate and support each other.

 

That's great, like a global communalism. But it only works if everyone is enlightened. Are you going to be the Guru that enlightens everybody on Earth GIH?

 

You sound like Krishnamurti.

 

Honestly, I hope it does happen, I also want everyone to be enlightened and to have more of a spherical system, instead of a pyramid system on Earth. It's a great ideal GIH!! I support it, but at the same time, one can see that a pyramid is made of little tiny spheres. So, it's not inherently bad, but it would be more relatively good if the structure could resemble it's building particles and be more spherical.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Only because you don't understand Buddhism. Sure, on the surface, but not in essence as it's empty of essence, nothing to attach to if you really, really get it. Of course there is a hierarchy of knowledge, of course there are those within conventional reality that are more in touch with the nature of things than others! Just like there is a hierarchy in the kitchen, from prep to sous chef to executive chef. There is always going to be a hierarchy. Just like in a school, from janitor to the teachers to the principle. Just like in government... etc.

 

This is just how conventional reality works and it won't end, cycle, after cycle. That's the dance buddy. It's when the hierarchy is abused that there needs to be a revamping of the system, which the Dalai Lama has done many times through various births. Not every Dalai Lama was the Dalai Lama due to political tension and abuse of the hierarchy within the system. But, all in all... that's what he did, especially when he supported the Rime' movement in order to get all the lineages together and not to hate each other.

 

Anyway... you only see the surface, that's my point. You choose to see the negative, and you are embittered by this. So when someone like me who sees the positive comes around, you're like, "Hey... he has no idea what he's talking about, because it's bad... not good."

 

You focus on the dark side of the moon ralis... sadly.

 

 

Buddhism is classified as a religion. The problem is your twisting of facts and projecting an authoritarian superior attitude that Buddhism is the ultimate authority, in proclaiming to completely understand the workings of the cosmos.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Edited June 4, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Buddhism is classified as a religion. The problem is your twisting of facts and projecting an authoritarian superior attitude that Buddhism is the ultimate authority, in proclaiming to completely understand the workings of the cosmos.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

 

Believe what you wish. I don't agree with that classification, as it only applies to the surface, the looks of it. Deep within the system that the Buddha taught, is a spirituality. So, sure it's a religion, a spiritual religion!

 

Hey, you have your view, I find it limited and confused, just like you think of mine. Let's agree to disagree.

[goldisheavy]

That's great, like a global communalism. But it only works if everyone is enlightened.

 

That's almost right. I don't think people have to be perfectly enlightened for this to work, but it's true they do need to have a reasonable degree of wisdom and inner development.

 

To promote learning people must be able to taste the fruits of their actions. And to enable this, dictators of all kinds have to be disempowered. Do you understand why?

Edited June 4, 2011 by goldisheavy