The answer lies in the India/Nepal/Tibet Himalaya Regions afterall.. and definitely NOT in china/taiwan..

[Vajrahridaya]

Jack,

 

Laugh if you want, but it's true. I try to be open to other ideas, but in the same way I don't care to be told I'm wrong, you don't seem to care for that either. I don't care to have my experiences trivialized, you don't either. Since we began talking about a month ago I have a read more on Buddhism, Mahayana and Theravada than I have in the entire time I've studied Eastern Religions. I may be obstinate, but I try very hard to humble myself, to remind myself that I don't know everything. As Vaj commented earlier, I was saying the exact same thing you've been saying, except I wasn't saying it the same way. The more I learn about Buddhism, the more I understand that my beliefs aren't so far off from what Buddha taught.

 

I understand that my experiences have only touched the surface, that I have further to go, but my point is that when we share our experiences as ultimates, as the final truths, sometimes we cut people off from understanding. I think we could all use a dose of humility. I am finding humility on a daily basis. I had to sell my car in order to pay rent. I took out a loan that I can't pay back, just to try and make ends meet. I have no job and I am having to earn money each day just to eat. This state has made me appreciate those things I took for granted, but it's also reminded me of suffering in very real way. I would love to have an end to suffering, but I have yet to see any real proof that what Buddhism has to offer in the end will really free me from it, rather I think it will only allow me to understand it in a greater way. Regardless I am practicing Zen and trying to remember that it is only this moment that's important, that if I lose everything, my cats, my family, and my home, that it's not the end, that those things do not define who I am as a person.

 

My cup is not empty, but it's not full. I want to be open to new things. I think the worst thing a man can do is shut himself off to possibilities, because when he does that, he no longer has hope. I am finding an immense degree of peace knowing that it is more than just survival, that I am not the center of the universe, that I am not God, omniscient, that there is more to everything than I can ever dream of.

 

I don't hate Buddhism, or Buddha, but I do hate ignorance, or at least the inability to accept that things aren't perfect. Even if Buddha's teachings were perfect, that doesn't mean that those who practice them today are. That doesn't mean that there isn't more than just Buddha's teachings, that someone else doesn't have something else to teach us.

 

I love Vedanta, but I realize that it isn't the entirety of truth, that there is more. Buddha obviously did too. I loved Christianity, but I understand that it isn't the entirety of truth. My point is that I want to be open so I don't miss out on something that might come along and help me to understand who I am more clearly. I never want to get to the point where I say, "this is enough, I don't need anymore."

 

I should have been more open to your Buddhist ideas, but I am forty one years old and I'm just not willing to spend the next twenty years practicing Buddhism alone under the pretense that it may be right. I just don't have the time for that. I have an immense respect for the religion and I honestly think that if all people practiced the eightfold path, that the world would be a much better place.

 

These days I break that path down into one simple phrase, "treat all things as compassionately as possible." Will I always do this? No. I'm human and fallible, but if I commit to doing this, go into it with the idea that I will not try, but I will do, then I'm confident that I can make the world better for those around me, and that's what's really important, not easing my suffering but easing the suffering of others.

 

So I apologize to you and to Cowtao for not being patient and not explaining my misgivings as I should have. I would not discourage you from practicing Buddhism, it's a beautiful religion. I would only say don't close your heart to other things. Be open to possibilities so that if one does come along you don't miss it.

 

Aaron

 

Thanks Aaron, that was very sweet, open, humble and honest. I enjoyed that.

[Baguakid]

 

How many chinese or taiwanese masters can meditate for 6 days without food or water? Let alone 6 months or 6 years?

 

None I have seen so far..

 

 

I have, perhaps you're not looking in the right place.

[ralis]

I agree with you completely, and I also think that it is within our grasp to experience the unexplainable, just not to capture it in words or concepts. After all, we are it.

 

I'll have to check out Matt's Zohar - thanks

 

Here is vol.1. I believe the complete work will be 10 volumes. Matt is a first rate scholar and translator.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Zohar-Pritzker-Vol-1/dp/0804747474/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1307251254&sr=8-9

[goldisheavy]

If that's all you got from my post, you didn't read very well. Or maybe I didn't write very well.

 

Alas... What I'm saying is that there are positive hierarchies that naturally form around enlightened beings. I'd rather see a positive sphere of shared understanding, which happens around enlightened beings as well, but spiritual practice rituals are amazing, and key, and they do enlighten. You're welcome to think that's B.S.

 

I don't think they are completely 100% bullshit. I think that rituals tend to lose their freshness over time. At some point a ritual is fresh, and it has a sacred meaning. As more and more people repeat the ritual, or even as the same person continues to repeat the same ritual, it becomes stale over time. The more the ritual is repeated, the staler it gets. This applies to one person doing some ritual over and over and to many people.

 

I think dogma is much worse than rituals, personally. Rituals just paralyze the body and the gross layers of the mind, which is kind of bad, but it's not a huge loss. Dogma paralyzes the deeper layers of the mind. Dogma is not just mental fixedness, it's also a non-recognition of mental fixedness as such, and non-recognition of the implication of said fixedness, as well as the non-recognition of the implications of the dogmatic content. So all these non-recognitions often occur together and are mutually reinforcing and stabilizing. This is why dogmatic people are sometimes hard to move or to touch.

 

But, I won't live in your understanding, meanwhile I keep raising my vibration through enlightened ritual passed down from Guru to Disciple throughout the centuries. I like these traditions, these clothes, these mantras, they work, they enlighten! They've worked for countless others. I suppose plenty here don't have the karma to see or experience that, they just see what they want, a hierarchy to tare down and rebel against.

 

That's great. I mean, seriously. If you love it, that's awesome. What I have a personal problem with is when you suggest to me overtly and covertly that what I am saying is worthless unless I start appreciating your clothes, rituals, and everything else you are doing. You attempt to disempower and delegitimize what I am saying. And it's not just you. Many people on this forum have attempted that.

 

The reason I find what you're doing problematic is not me personally. I will be fine no matter what you do. I can see through all the maras. You can't really shake me or confuse me when you verbalize your personal psychological issues. However, I believe you're confusing and bewildering the heck out of the weaker people who as of yet have hard time standing on their own two feet as strongly and as surely as I am.

 

We are giving conflicting messages to people with wobbly feet.

 

Vajra: The Guru will hold you up!

Me: Exercise your legs!

 

That's the difference.

 

When I say I don't need a Guru the implication is not that I don't need one, but that no one does. And by Guru I mean something specific, namely a human authoritarian teacher.

 

Of course we all need to learn somehow, but our teacher is always with us. Our own mind and our own body is the teacher. Our life. Our dreams. All these are super teachers that will never lie, never cheat, don't charge you additional costs, don't get tired, don't abandon you even for a second, have endless superb wisdom, and more importantly have tons of fresh wisdom as opposed to old formulaic regurgitations.

 

I'm also a big fan of devotion to the Guru and Guru Yoga, it works!! Maybe not for you, or ralis, but it works for us that it works for... the impact is incredible.

 

I know because I practiced bhakti yoga too. This is also why I am now warning people! It's all too easy to go down the wrong path with bhakti yoga. When you're in a devotional state you are vulnerable and ripe for exploitation. It's a nasty trick that works, but isn't worth the risk. There are sure ways that work just as well and have less risk.

 

I prefer the sober way over the drunk way.

 

Now tell me how would an authoritarian succeed where a friend would fail?

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Seth Ananda]

Hello Seth,

 

When I experienced what you refer to as a deep union with the Godhead, I didn't actually recognize it as intelligent at all, but rather just a state of being. In other words my realization was that we were all one and I experienced this oneness with a flash of insight. For me it was the knowledge that I was not just connected to everything in existence, but that I was literally everything in existence. I am "It", as I am prone to say.

 

I think I would've liked the Godhead to be an intelligent being, to have a conscious impact on this world, but the best I can describe it as, is a consciousness without intention. In other words it isn't an intelligence in the context of what we consider intelligence to be, so far as it does not work along the presumptions of logic and reason, but rather it is the embodiment of being throughout everything that exists.

 

Again, if you could elaborate on this one aspect, I'd be greatly interested in hearing how you came to this understanding.

 

Aaron

 

Sure, I have experienced it in that way as well. I Think one of the things i find so fascinating about this topic is the Idea, that If you approach 'Reality' 'as if' it is Conscious and Intelligent, then that is how you experience it.

This brings up so many questions for me:

 

1. Does it speak to [or Intersect with] us through the filters of belief we subscribe in? I think this could answer the slight variations found tradition to tradition in description, and also could answer questions like how a paedophile fake like Sai Baba is seen by so many devotees around the world in visions with miraculous consequences.

 

2. Is it just neutral, and we apply our own filters to it? Is the Intelligence that one mystic communes with, just some deep projection of his own mind? Does a different mystic who believes the Divine is more like an unmovable bedrock, then experience the solid ground of being? Or the Void? If so we are very amazing

 

3. We also are capable of switching fairly easily between ways of experiencing Divinity. What does that suggest?

 

To me i have to say that, that still Oneness where I am 'Being' & Everything, is almost Boring compared the experience of Living Interaction with the Mind of the Universe.

 

To someone else, they might feel very uncomfortable having the universe [if that is what it really is] talk to them, and are much Happier ascribing to a different view/experience...

 

Praise the Great Inter-subjectivity! lol

Edited June 5, 2011 by Seth Ananda

[goldisheavy]

Sure, I have experienced it in that way as well. I Think one of the things i find so fascinating about this topic is the Idea, that If you approach 'Reality' 'as if' it is Conscious and Intelligent, then that is how you experience it.

This brings up so many questions for me:

 

1. Does it speak to [or Intersect with] us through the filters of belief we subscribe in? I think this could answer the slight variations found tradition to tradition in description, and also could answer questions like how a paedophile fake like Sai Baba is seen by so many devotees around the world in visions with miraculous consequences.

 

2. Is it just neutral, and we apply our own filters to it? Is the Intelligence that one mystic communes with, just some deep projection of his own mind? Does a different mystic who believes the Divine is more like an unmovable bedrock, then experience the solid ground of being? Or the Void? If so we are very amazing

 

3. We also are capable of switching fairly easily between ways of experiencing Divinity. What does that suggest?

 

To me i have to say that, that still Oneness where I am 'Being' & Everything, is almost Boring compared the experience of Living Interaction with the Mind of the Universe.

 

To someone else, they might feel very uncomfortable having the universe [if that is what it really is] talk to them, and are much Happier ascribing to a different view/experience...

 

Praise the Great Inter-subjectivity! lol

 

What a beautiful and thought provoking post, Seth.

 

It's so much pleasure to read this than to read another cut-n-paste of 1000 year old teaching that's been chewed to death by millions of people already.

 

Such thinking can only come from sincere engagement. If you just follow, follow, follow, then you'd never be able to think this freely and this poignantly, and speak this eloquently. You'd just be busy rehashing the same 3 teachings you follow over and over and over again.

 

You know, maybe if people each came up with their own 3 teachings and rehashed those, it would be OK. There are 7 bil people on Earth, so there would be 7 times 3 = 21 bil teachings, and it would be interesting! But what happens is, there is so much groupthink, that you end up with something like 10 teachings or so getting bashed into the ground by billions of people over and over. That's so stale, it's like death.

 

Sure, once in a while it's nice to be reminded of something old, but I want the ratio to be 95% fresh and 5% old. Currently the ratio is like 80% old and 20% fresh.

 

I think we can do better!

[Seth Ananda]

Proclaiming the totality of existence that can't be named or defined by assigning any philosophical or religious values is missing the direct experience of the infinite possibilities of existence. If one analyzed E&DO 24/7 with every activity, that would create mental problems.

No ism in and of itself that claims to quantify or understand existence using verbal arguments, will provide concrete answers. Verbal arguments are used to define existence in absolute terms i.e, isness, which is a human struggle to explain the unexplainable.

 

Daniel Matt's translation of the Zohar provides an excellent argument in regards to "Ein Sof" the undefinable and unnameable.

 

I am a little tired now and if the above is not well written, feel free to critique.

 

Ha! I am tired too and i do not feel I have conveyed my own posts with enough clarity. I too 'believe' that the Highest is beyond words.

But... There are very useful ways of seeing with the mind. At least for me.

 

I will just say that for my experience, Having a minor realisation of E&DO was very useful in helping me release 'State' Fixation. I used to subtly beat myself up when I was out of contact, so to speak. I do not have to contemplate E&DO every minute of every day. After seeing it very clearly, I do not have to try to see it. I just see it. That is the value of realisation for me.

 

Now just to be careful, I think a person can 'realise' many things, not all of which could be true.

An example would be an abused child that 'Realises' that they are unlovable and rotten. That will colour their perceptions till the day [hopefully] that someone helps them heal. They will not need to think about that.

Whatever the nature of realisation is, it Imprints an awareness of some kind into the 'hard drive' so to speak.

 

Realising E&DO fortunately, [at least so far] has only had good effects on me. Deeper sense of relaxation, expansiveness and freedom. I feel like some part of me let go on a much deeper level.

So for me It lets me abide in an Openness much more easily, and lets me be more available to experiencing the UnNameable...

 

Part of why I go on about Buddhism teaching the highest realisation, is that it is one of the few [spiritual] realisations that are not even slightly dependent on a specific God/Union/state of consciousness. Although I am willing to concede that it may result in a state of some kind, or more easy access to the unspeakable, due to its Inherent self dissolving nature.

 

All the other Traditions {I personally believe} also eventually go to the unspeakable [Ain Soph] as well. Its a natural continuation on from the Oneness/Spirit underlying substance State that I often refer to as the Absolute State.

The beyond though [as far as I humbly understand] Is not a state, not being, not not being, not comprehendable...

 

I Just believe that some of the Buddhist philosophy can be a great help to people in other Traditions, as It was for me.

 

I can't stand Buddhist or any kind of religious elitism. It all comes from people who never completed the journey in another traditions shoes. So how would they Know.

 

I Love that we can debate and share and enhance each others understanding.

 

Seth.

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't think they are completely 100% bullshit. I think that rituals tend to lose their freshness over time. At some point a ritual is fresh, and it has a sacred meaning. As more and more people repeat the ritual, or even as the same person continues to repeat the same ritual, it becomes stale over time. The more the ritual is repeated, the staler it gets. This applies to one person doing some ritual over and over and to many people.

 

 

See this is subjective and you've created a personal dogma around it. In my experience, the more I do the ritual, the more juicy it gets, the more filled with rasa. In fact, it's in the beginning that it feels dry, but as I relax into it, and my focus gets better... it gets' juicier and juicier over the years and not dryer at all. So, due to my own experience as well as plenty of other peoples experience who actually practice a traditional path, there is not an agreement with you.

 

 

 

 

The reason I find what you're doing problematic is not me personally. I will be fine no matter what you do. I can see through all the maras. You can't really shake me or confuse me when you verbalize your personal psychological issues. However, I believe you're confusing and bewildering the heck out of the weaker people who as of yet have hard time standing on their own two feet as strongly and as surely as I am.

 

We are giving conflicting messages to people with wobbly feet.

 

Vajra: The Guru will hold you up!

Me: Exercise your legs!

 

I'm sorry but you are wrong. It has everything to do with your biased opinion based upon your lack of experience with opening up to a living tradition. You might have thought you did for a while there, but because you think this way, doesn't mean that's how it happens for the rest of us who have a living tradition and Guru.

 

The Guru teaches one how to exercise the mind and find ones own power. You're going to say, blah, blah, blah. But for instance someone like SereneBlue needs a Sangham, needs a teacher who lives from the space of deep inspiration, so that she can feel that energy and get it like osmosis. We are not separate individuals, so to enter a pool of liberation, helps one find ones own liberation, as it's not really ones own either.

 

 

When I say I don't need a Guru the implication is not that I don't need one, but that no one does. And by Guru I mean something specific, namely a human authoritarian teacher.

 

I know that you are wrong. I will say so over and over again too. You are wrong buddy. I think you need a Guru.

 

Of course we all need to learn somehow, but our teacher is always with us. Our own mind and our own body is the teacher. Our life. Our dreams. All these are super teachers that will never lie, never cheat, don't charge you additional costs, don't get tired, don't abandon you even for a second, have endless superb wisdom, and more importantly have tons of fresh wisdom as opposed to old formulaic regurgitations.

 

That's such B.S. Most peoples inner teacher does lead them to lie, cheat, waste money on superficial things, most people are lost in the world of material gain. My Guru's have taught me the opposite, how to really find my inner Guru. This is only because I have the mind of a true student, who is open to learn and not criticizing everything calling it "Critical Thinking."

 

 

I know because I practiced bhakti yoga too. This is also why I am now warning people! It's all too easy to go down the wrong path with bhakti yoga. When you're in a devotional state you are vulnerable and ripe for exploitation. It's a nasty trick that works, but isn't worth the risk. There are sure ways that work just as well and have less risk.

 

See, but you are projecting your subjective experience onto those that didn't experience this. Sure, what you say happens, but it did not happen to me. I was not exploited, or asked to turn away from my self empowerment. In fact, I learned how to be more self empowered through the old rituals and teachings, and when my teachers spoke these teachings and were present for these rituals, they were ecstatic, coming from that space of inspiration, they were not dry words. The rituals are not dry at all... it's the person experiencing the dryness that's dry, and when you experience your inner dryness during a wet ritual, it's because you're too hard, you're not letting it in, you're shutting yourself off, and it's generally always because one is criticizing waaaaay too much that this happens and not actually doing the ritual. Your just there, but not really, you're just judging.

 

I prefer the sober way over the drunk way.

 

Now tell me how would an authoritarian succeed where a friend would fail?

 

A person is only an authority because that person actually is an authority. If a person is not an authority but acting like one, that's a false guru. But, since there are false guru's it follows that there are also true guru's. An authority can also be a good friend. In fact I consider my Gurus as my best friends, deep friends. In my waking and sleeping life, through dream and video, books and talks. I am more inspired by them than any other person I've ever met. Which is why I call them my root Guru's.

 

I think your view is extreme and I don't think it will help everyone, maybe a few people, but I think these real Guru's, and these old traditions need to just get better and more in tune with the now, and they are! But, to throw the baby out with the bath water like you are suggesting is just a revelation of your biased opinion, based upon your own experience or lack there of.

 

I do respect your ideal though, if everyone was indeed enlightened, we could just all be each others guru's and thus no ones guru, we'd all really be sharing from that open space. But, that's not the way the world is... this is not a heaven realm.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Seth Ananda]

What a beautiful and thought provoking post, Seth.

 

It's so much pleasure to read this than to read another cut-n-paste of 1000 year old teaching that's been chewed to death by millions of people already.

 

Such thinking can only come from sincere engagement. If you just follow, follow, follow, then you'd never be able to think this freely and this poignantly, and speak this eloquently. You'd just be busy rehashing the same 3 teachings you follow over and over and over again.

 

You know, maybe if people each came up with their own 3 teachings and rehashed those, it would be OK. There are 7 bil people on Earth, so there would be 7 times 3 = 21 bil teachings, and it would be interesting! But what happens is, there is so much groupthink, that you end up with something like 10 teachings or so getting bashed into the ground by billions of people over and over. That's so stale, it's like death.

 

Sure, once in a while it's nice to be reminded of something old, but I want the ratio to be 95% fresh and 5% old. Currently the ratio is like 80% old and 20% fresh.

 

I think we can do better!

Lol and Yes! we can do better, and we are I think, here. Hopefully those little fresh moments keep Increasing.

Philosophical Honesty and Philosophical Courage are the name of the Game.

There is so much new Information, we must Question everything, no matter how dear we hold it, even the nature of our own experiences.

This living Inquiry is the Golden Heart of the search for Wisdom.

 

Blessings on everyone's path.

 

[Vajrahridaya]

Ha! I am tired too and i do not feel I have conveyed my own posts with enough clarity. I too 'believe' that the Highest is beyond words.

But... There are very useful ways of seeing with the mind. At least for me.

 

I will just say that for my experience, Having a minor realisation of E&DO was very useful in helping me release 'State' Fixation. I used to subtly beat myself up when I was out of contact, so to speak. I do not have to contemplate E&DO every minute of every day. After seeing it very clearly, I do not have to try to see it. I just see it. That is the value of realisation for me.

 

Now just to be careful, I think a person can 'realise' many things, not all of which could be true.

An example would be an abused child that 'Realises' that they are unlovable and rotten. That will colour their perceptions till the day [hopefully] that someone helps them heal. They will not need to think about that.

Whatever the nature of realisation is, it Imprints an awareness of some kind into the 'hard drive' so to speak.

 

Realising E&DO fortunately, [at least so far] has only had good effects on me. Deeper sense of relaxation, expansiveness and freedom. I feel like some part of me let go on a much deeper level.

So for me It lets me abide in an Openness much more easily, and lets me be more available to experiencing the UnNameable...

 

Part of why I go on about Buddhism teaching the highest realisation, is that it is one of the few [spiritual] realisations that are not even slightly dependent on a specific God/Union/state of consciousness. Although I am willing to concede that it may result in a state of some kind, or more easy access to the unspeakable, due to its Inherent self dissolving nature.

 

All the other Traditions {I personally believe} also eventually go to the unspeakable [Ain Soph] as well. Its a natural continuation on from the Oneness/Spirit underlying substance State that I often refer to as the Absolute State.

The beyond though [as far as I humbly understand] Is not a state, not being, not not being, not comprehendable...

 

I Just believe that some of the Buddhist philosophy can be a great help to people in other Traditions, as It was for me.

 

I can't stand Buddhist or any kind of religious elitism. It all comes from people who never completed the journey in another traditions shoes. So how would they Know.

 

I Love that we can debate and share and enhance each others understanding.

 

Seth.

 

I agree, but ralis seems to think that DO&E is just a mental conceptual play thing, and it's not... it's an intuition when one gets it. Anyway... yes, there are most likely plenty of realizers from other traditions, it's just that the way Buddhism presents it conceptually seems to be the clearest.

 

I don't really agree that there is an underlying oneness. I feel that there is an underlying potential that unifies everything which one gets in touch with, that creative matrix, like plugging into or dissolving into the all. But yes, I feel that it's nether transcendent of words, nor encapsulated by words. I don't believe in an inherent ineffableness that self exists. I feel Buddhahood is defined by a final insight, a clear cognizing which facilitates an inner experience of total freedom, but to identify that with a true self existence I think is reflective of a subtle clinging.

 

I don't know... we all internalize concepts differently, which is why I feel one can say, "god" and not get caught up in an identity, even though I find most tend to, even subtly. I do feel that inter-faith dialogue is good and it's part of the blessings of this new internet world.

 

I do find that those that believe in god use it as an excuse to not explore deeper, that it's, "gods will" that it's like this, and this is creating an excuse for ignorance. As well as sometimes it empowers a subtle ego, saying, "I am one with the all, thus everything that comes through me is gods holy will and should not be questioned." Which is why I left SY, not because I didn't feel that Gurumayi and Muktananda weren't high beings, just I think confused and conditioned by there chosen framework of spiritual reference without actually knowing it. Even though I still feel they are more highly realized in that tradition than I am in Buddhism. They are definitely deep into it, and have plenty of experience, but they reified it as the end all be all tell all. It seems sometimes that Gurumayi does it a little less than Baba, but still, there is this sense of pretense sometimes. I don't know... I got really deep and high through the tradition, but I find the philosophy of Kashmir Shaivism/Advaita Vedanta, Hinduism in general to be lacking and that goes for all theisms in my study and experiential opinion. Especially when it comes to formless level realizations, most paths just stop there it seems.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Seth Ananda]

 

I don't really agree that there is an underlying oneness. I feel that there is an underlying potential that unifies everything which one gets in touch with, that creative matrix, like plugging into or dissolving into the all. But yes, I feel that it's nether transcendent of words, nor encapsulated by words. I don't believe in an inherent ineffableness that self exists. I feel Buddhahood is defined by a final insight, a clear cognizing which facilitates an inner experience of total freedom, but to identify that with a true self existence I think is reflective of a subtle clinging.

 

For me when I say Oneness, I do not necessarily mean it literally, although it has the feeling of oneness. It is the Light experienced by Mystics everywhere as being the 'base substance' of all phenomena, physical/mental/spiritual. Through understanding how it becomes/is everything one can bring about miracles.

 

I personally see it's nature as more like a sea of candles rather than a single thing.

All the energies of life are permuting back and forward with it. As it is behind everything, yet also Interacting with everything, there is a constant alchemical cycling and transformation back and forward from light to dense and so on.

Thus it is completely Dependently Originating. And [at least to me] It has a Vast sense of Intelligence/Beingness.

 

Its not the Unspeakable though. It is very easy to describe, despite the words not really doing it justice.

Kabbalah calls it Ain-Soph-Aur. The Ain-Soph on the other hand... there really is no way to describe. That is what I refer to as what is not even a State, and that is the True Ineffable.

 

But as I have no experience of the Ain Soph as yet, anything i say is merely me parroting on about what older traditions teach.

I look forward to reading The Zohar book Ralis linked too.

[Vajrahridaya]

Sure, once in a while it's nice to be reminded of something old, but I want the ratio to be 95% fresh and 5% old. Currently the ratio is like 80% old and 20% fresh.

 

I think we can do better!

 

I agree, there can always be more people that get the teachings in essence and apply them to their life and re-express them in a new and contemporary way. I could always do more of that. But, I think you are going about it the wrong way. You want all these great teachings and great Guru's to just tear it all down and replace it with your way of thinking, how is that not imperialistic and dogmatic?

 

These traditions work, they do enlighten and liberate beings, dependent on the capacity of the individual. I find that people who like Krishamurti just like to talk about it, like him, and are inspired by it, but it's just a bunch of prattle with no real practice, no real grounding in depth experience of the nature of everything beyond the 5 senses.

[Vajrahridaya]

For me when I say Oneness, I do not necessarily mean it literally, although it has the feeling of oneness. It is the Light experienced by Mystics everywhere as being the 'base substance' of all phenomena, physical/mental/spiritual. Through understanding how it becomes/is everything one can bring about miracles.

 

It's really just the consciousness expanding due to the emptiness of things, and one is being aware of interconnectivity so it feels like everything is reflecting the single substance of a large mind, but it's really just your awareness and one can connect with other expanded awareness here as well, seeing all that is equally empty the awareness expands more, but not in a sense of space, because there is no space, no distance really, not inherently. Here one can have more power over the elements and work so called "miracles", which is really just a subtle science, but I think that most mystics are caught in one or the other formless realms as Buddha warned and are not taking d.o. & e. deep enough. But, I don't know... I'm not omniscient so I don't know what you really mean on your personal level by "base substance" which is exactly what the Buddha was saying is a delusional attachment or a mis-communication with deep experience. That sounds like a "Self" of all... a self existence that is the source of all things? I know the experience well and I used to think it was "Gods will and intelligence." There is that creative power, and it's emptiness, there is natural formation and primordial purity, which is the Dzogchen way of saying dependent origination/emptiness. I'd be like... consciousness is everywhere! Bliss is everywhere, everything is this bliss this consciousness!! But really I was just experiencing a level within my own unconscious connecting to everything beyond my seeming individuality and just becoming aware of it through a particular focus.

 

 

I personally see it's nature as more like a sea of candles rather than a single thing.

All the energies of life are permuting back and forward with it. As it is behind everything, yet also Interacting with everything, there is a constant alchemical cycling and transformation back and forward from light to dense and so on.

Thus it is completely Dependently Originating. And [at least to me] It has a Vast sense of Intelligence/Beingness.

 

Sure the creative matrix, the state of mind that is exemplified by Samantabhadra in Dzogchen. But it's not an inherent existence, it's just the vast state of the Dharmakaya, still not established but still the realization of infinite potential. I like this description better, I am more apt to go with that as well as being a clearer definition. I don't think it's behind anything though, it's just all being. It's not a secret will, it's just all will's manifesting, hiding, undulating, pulsing... then there is it's emptiness which is what makes the undulating possible.

 

Like a sea of infinite candles all shining as one, that stillness heals.

 

Its not the Unspeakable though. It is very easy to describe, despite the words not really doing it justice.

Kabbalah calls it Ain-Soph-Aur. The Ain-Soph on the other hand... there really is no way to describe. That is what I refer to as what is not even a State, and that is the True Ineffable.

 

But as I have no experience of the Ain Soph as yet, anything i say is merely me parroting on about what older traditions teach.

I look forward to reading The Zohar book Ralis linked too.

 

Yes, well that system sounds much like the system of Kashmir Shaivism, reifying the state of "beyond perception and non-perception." I don't know... I see it as a limited way of conditioning the spiritual experience. Ain is like Paramashiva the tattva beyond tattvas, the ground of being where any sense of self reference dissolves into the ultimate void, Bhairava. This is really just a layer in the Alayavijnana though, the deep unconscious of an individual, where the emptiness of all things and beings is directly experienced as a negative "void", pregnant with potential.

 

The Kabbalah system is interesting though... I found it quite nice to read when I was a Shaivite, I thought it was basically saying the same thing that Shaivism says.

 

I wish you well on that journey, I would say that you could only profit from it and evolve.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

I agree, there can always be more people that get the teachings in essence and apply them to their life and re-express them in a new and contemporary way. I could always do more of that. But, I think you are going about it the wrong way. You want all these great teachings and great Guru's to just tear it all down and replace it with your way of thinking, how is that not imperialistic and dogmatic?

 

Well, let's see. I want the imperialists to tear down their empires.

 

This is what you're calling imperialistic.

 

Besides, I wasn't addressing the imperialists in this thread, but you specifically. So we are talking about just one self-admitted and proud submissive follower who is also an imperialist-wannabe.

 

These traditions work,

 

They work poorly and inefficiently. Like alchemy vs chemistry.

[juju]

Jack,

 

Laugh if you want, but it's true. I try to be open to other ideas, but in the same way I don't care to be told I'm wrong, you don't seem to care for that either. I don't care to have my experiences trivialized, you don't either. Since we began talking about a month ago I have a read more on Buddhism, Mahayana and Theravada than I have in the entire time I've studied Eastern Religions. I may be obstinate, but I try very hard to humble myself, to remind myself that I don't know everything. As Vaj commented earlier, I was saying the exact same thing you've been saying, except I wasn't saying it the same way. The more I learn about Buddhism, the more I understand that my beliefs aren't so far off from what Buddha taught.

 

I understand that my experiences have only touched the surface, that I have further to go, but my point is that when we share our experiences as ultimates, as the final truths, sometimes we cut people off from understanding. I think we could all use a dose of humility. I am finding humility on a daily basis. I had to sell my car in order to pay rent. I took out a loan that I can't pay back, just to try and make ends meet. I have no job and I am having to earn money each day just to eat. This state has made me appreciate those things I took for granted, but it's also reminded me of suffering in very real way. I would love to have an end to suffering, but I have yet to see any real proof that what Buddhism has to offer in the end will really free me from it, rather I think it will only allow me to understand it in a greater way. Regardless I am practicing Zen and trying to remember that it is only this moment that's important, that if I lose everything, my cats, my family, and my home, that it's not the end, that those things do not define who I am as a person.

 

My cup is not empty, but it's not full. I want to be open to new things. I think the worst thing a man can do is shut himself off to possibilities, because when he does that, he no longer has hope. I am finding an immense degree of peace knowing that it is more than just survival, that I am not the center of the universe, that I am not God, omniscient, that there is more to everything than I can ever dream of.

 

I don't hate Buddhism, or Buddha, but I do hate ignorance, or at least the inability to accept that things aren't perfect. Even if Buddha's teachings were perfect, that doesn't mean that those who practice them today are. That doesn't mean that there isn't more than just Buddha's teachings, that someone else doesn't have something else to teach us.

 

I love Vedanta, but I realize that it isn't the entirety of truth, that there is more. Buddha obviously did too. I loved Christianity, but I understand that it isn't the entirety of truth. My point is that I want to be open so I don't miss out on something that might come along and help me to understand who I am more clearly. I never want to get to the point where I say, "this is enough, I don't need anymore."

 

I should have been more open to your Buddhist ideas, but I am forty one years old and I'm just not willing to spend the next twenty years practicing Buddhism alone under the pretense that it may be right. I just don't have the time for that. I have an immense respect for the religion and I honestly think that if all people practiced the eightfold path, that the world would be a much better place.

 

These days I break that path down into one simple phrase, "treat all things as compassionately as possible." Will I always do this? No. I'm human and fallible, but if I commit to doing this, go into it with the idea that I will not try, but I will do, then I'm confident that I can make the world better for those around me, and that's what's really important, not easing my suffering but easing the suffering of others.

 

So I apologize to you and to Cowtao for not being patient and not explaining my misgivings as I should have. I would not discourage you from practicing Buddhism, it's a beautiful religion. I would only say don't close your heart to other things. Be open to possibilities so that if one does come along you don't miss it.

 

Aaron

 

Beautiful post, Aaron.

Thank you for being so open, vulnerable, clear and firm.

Open without belittling oneself. Firm without closing to others, without putting the personal little truth higher than the truth of others.

 

Thanks for this post and some others of the last hours. I really do appreciate and learn from how you deal with quite some intense behavior.

[goldisheavy]

I know that you are wrong. I will say so over and over again too. You are wrong buddy. I think you need a Guru.

 

Alright. In that case, you need to leave Namdrol and Chogyal Namkai Norbu. Please leave them now.

 

I will repeat this message to you every time I get a chance.

 

Most peoples inner teacher does lead them to lie, cheat, waste money on superficial things, most people are lost in the world of material gain.

 

This is pure bullshit. You're trying to tell people that they can't depend on themselves. People have the capacity to learn from their own mistakes. It doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, nor does it mean that evidence of the mistakes is evidence of how the inner teacher lies.

 

See, but you are projecting your subjective experience onto those that didn't experience this.

 

You're wrong buddy. This is your condescending assumption at work. You assume everyone around you is a spiritually incompetent and incapable person. I don't assume that. But it's obvious how from your assumed POV you'd say something like that. This is the blackness of your heart pouring outward.

 

Let's talk about projections now. When you assume that people are incompetent and can't take care of themselves, you are projecting a visualization of beings that is negative and impure.

 

When I assume that people are basically competent and capable, I am projecting a visualization of beings that is positive and pure.

 

So in terms of projections, I am projecting the right way according to Mahayana. I see purity around me. You see filth. Since you continue to see filth all around you, it's obvious all those years of studying had no effect on you whatsoever.

 

This is proof positive that Gurus don't work. They've failed you, and your failure is exposed very clearly and very obviously for everyone to see on these here forums.

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

They work poorly and inefficiently. Like alchemy vs chemistry.

 

This is your subjective experience and you've made a dogma out of it. This is where you are closed off, shut down, don't listen, won't hear, refuse to learn.

 

Mental dogmas are indeed deep.

 

How many has your view enlightened? Without any methods, just a bunch of words. The Vajrayana methods are not words, they are practices, methods that purify the elements, heighten awareness, deepen awareness... directly, beyond words. How many did Krishnamurti enlighten through his teachings without method? I haven't found one, just more regurgitation of rebellion against hierarchies, because their all bad? It's a good thing to have people like you around as everything should evolve and become more helpful by being contemporary. It's a good ideal to have everyone enlightened and self empowered, but this is why there are therapists, gurus, and teachers, because they do have something to teach, because people have things to learn, if the teacher doesn't get egotistically attached to the relative necessity of their position and think themselves absolute, there's room for more teachers than students, or just beings of pure light. I see a lot of Vajrayana Guru's aware of this and doing this, making teachings more contemporary and accessible, like ChNNR. But, sometimes that's a bad thing and ends up watering things down, even ChNNR has a process of higher and higher teachings and methods dependent on a persons level of progression. Like in his Santi Maha Sangha. The Dalai Lama just left his seat as political leader of Tibet, he want's to step down from the hierarchy. He is still a spiritual leader, a Guru and a highly realized being who deserves respect, not because he demands, it, but because he is it.

 

But, it seems to me that you are declaring yourself the absolute barer of truth!? You say that you see through all the Maras, do you really? I'm doubtful, your view seems to be too extreme. Now your going to pin me as a Mara in the way of your great revolution here on this board? Is that what's going to happen? I'm one of those dense idiots who can't see the absolute truth of your words?

 

These traditions of inner alchemy do not work poorly. I can attest to that, and others can as well. Your truth is subjective, and it's valid for you, right now, but it's not my truth.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

A person is only an authority because that person actually is an authority.

 

Brilliant. Not only is this circular nonsense, but it completely contradicts dependent origination teachings, giving authority some kind of inherent and independent essence. I am going to put this shining wisdom in my signature.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

So in terms of projections, I am projecting the right way according to Mahayana. I see purity around me. You see filth. Since you continue to see filth all around you, it's obvious all those years of studying had no effect on you whatsoever.

 

This is proof positive that Gurus don't work. They've failed you, and your failure is exposed very clearly and very obviously for everyone to see on these here forums.

 

Now you are making over assumptions, you are reading into things, this is a habit of yours. It's your mental dogmas at work. Actually, if you meet me, you'll find that I do see the highest in people, even in the lowest minded people. Tell me, where do you live? Do you live in the country where there is nobody, where you don't get out much? I'm just wondering. I've spent most of my life in the city, in major urban cities, like NYC and San Francisco. Sure, one should see the positive potential in everyone, if they could only see it in themselves, what I see are people ignoring their potential. Walking the streets, robbing people, both in corporate white collar crime and crime from the lower classes, as the class system sadly still exists, and the middle class is going out the window. I see people walking around with cold and distant eyes, unless I look into them, then they are bright, because I give them permission to be their brightness. But, most walk away, without any methods for keeping the light on, thinking that maybe I'm an alien to be so happy! I don't think you are aware of what goes on in peoples minds these days... the types of thoughts they have and the types of delusions.

 

I also see people helping each other, helping people pick up fallen groceries, help save a neighbors dog, good teachers caring about their students, working harder at being creatively good at sharing information. My mother is one such teacher, she's got her PHD in Womens Arts and Spirituality and she teaches in Eckard College and she used to teach at Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota. She's a wonderful example of the light and beauty that a good daily spiritual ritual of yoga, meditation and following a Guru of lineage does for a person. She's in her late 60's and has the looks and energy of a person in their youth.

 

But, how many people doing good things are actually training to die with heightened awareness? This can only happen through doing various methods, tantric methods, or meditation methods that have nothing to do with audible conversation. Not just sitting around having a tea and talking a good one. People need these enlightened rituals, and I think you do too... I still think you need a Guru, but you won't hear that. You think you are beyond that, but maybe you are? There certainly are plenty of people that are not, and desperately need a Guru, even consciously want a Guru, a person who lives from that space of open spontaneity and pure expression! Someone who has used the methods to effect of highest self potential fruition. These people are out there, ChNNR is but one example. I really like Garchen Rinpoche as well and he's one that will blissfully swear by the ancient yogic methods, because they most certainly enlightened him in the most dreary of circumstances. He was trapped in a Chinese prison for over 20 years, and his yogic methods not only kept his mind at peace, but actually deepened his awareness of compassion in the face of people who treated him like a savage beast.

 

Being blinded by rose colored glasses has nothing to do with correct cognition. It seems that you are blinded by blind optimism, or is it blinded by bitterness against us who see how a tradition followed with devotion, that comes from a lineage of enlightened beings, actually works? Why are you so threatened by that?

 

You are looking down on me, you are sitting on your high horse. You are being very insulting and insinuating, reading into things and projecting from the filth of your own perception. Look in the mirror GIH.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Brilliant. Not only is this circular nonsense, but it completely contradicts dependent origination teachings, giving authority some kind of inherent and independent essence. I am going to put this shining wisdom in my signature.

 

See more false viewing. You completely read into that. A person has the right to be an authority, due to having been a great student. ChNNR is a person of authority because he is that authority, not as an essence, but relative to having completed his training as a student.

 

It's as well dependently originated, but empty of inherent essence. It has nothing to do with Eternalism. It's just that Guru's are Guru's who deserve to be Guru's, at least these are the only Guru's I am interested in, those humble enough to learn and evolve to the point of being able to help other people. Not take advantage of them. Again, there would be no need for a Guru or an Authority of a teaching if everyone automatically knew the essence of that teaching. But, these tantric methods have particular outcomes, and even enlightened beings still perform these methods due to how the methods work with the elements of the body.

 

We are not in a heaven realm, we are dealing with polarities here, frictional forces. Until you attain the Rainbow Body, you also could use these methods GIH, and you'll need a teacher in order to apply them properly.

[Vajrahridaya]

This is proof positive that Gurus don't work. They've failed you, and your failure is exposed very clearly and very obviously for everyone to see on these here forums.

 

I must add, this is quite the childish statement. I'm pretty surprised at you, I think you are revealing your bitterness right here more than anything.

[goldisheavy]

I must add, this is quite the childish statement. I'm pretty surprised at you, I think you are revealing your bitterness right here more than anything.

 

The fact that the imperialistic dom/sub ways of thinking make me bitter is no secret. I talk about it all the time. Just like everything I say makes you bitter because you want to cling to your vision of impending Guruhood. Guruhood will be your reward. It's what you want, and it's what you'll get.

 

I'll do everything I can to make sure you trap as few dittoheads in your eventual clique as possible.

 

I want freedom. My reward will be freedom.

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[juju]

I hope you do not mind if I mix in, even if you did not adress me...

This is pure bullshit. You're trying to tell people that they can't depend on themselves. People have the capacity to learn from their own mistakes. It doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, nor does it mean that evidence of the mistakes is evidence of how the inner teacher lies.

 

Sure we have the capacity to learn from our inner teacher. But: Until which point? If I want to learn a language or math, I will rely on a teacher as well. Sure I can learn by my own logic. But to be honest - to understand Einstein oder quantum theory just waiting for my inner teacher... Neither would I tell a child to learn by trial and error and trust the inner teacher.

The inner master is the goal in Guru Yoga. But before you are capable of being your own master you need to work through quite some stuff. And on this trip an outer master is more then helpful. I only can repeat: Guru Yoga opens the heart & the navel. It is such a great base for other practices. And in Vajrayana I think it is absolutely essential. I would not have been able to face certain experiences without my Guru, without trusting him.

Which does not mean that everybody needs a Guru. I just say: It is the most incredible and helpful experience I ever made. And I'd wish everybody could have one - because to me this gives every day a bigger chance to go on my path, to face my fears, my emotions, my bullshit and to not run away any longer.

[Vajrahridaya]

The fact that the imperialistic dom/sub ways of thinking make me bitter is no secret. I talk about it all the time. Just like everything I say makes you bitter because you want to cling to your vision of impending Guruhood. Guruhood will be your reward. It's what you want, and it's what you'll get.

 

I'll do everything I can to make sure you trap as few dittoheads in your eventual clique as possible.

 

I want freedom. My reward will be freedom.

 

See, more assumptions. I have no desire to be a Guru. I don't even think that's in my cards... maybe a school teacher?

 

Your reactions are getting more funny and more telling. More and more, I am glad that I'm not you. Your bitterness is your own worst enemy, as it clouds your perception and makes enemies of friends.

[Vajrahridaya]

I hope you do not mind if I mix in, even if you did not adress me...

 

 

Sure we have the capacity to learn from our inner teacher. But: Until which point? If I want to learn a language or math, I will rely on a teacher as well. Sure I can learn by my own logic. But to be honest - to understand Einstein oder quantum theory just waiting for my inner teacher... Neither would I tell a child to learn by trial and error and trust the inner teacher.

The inner master is the goal in Guru Yoga. But before you are capable of being your own master you need to work through quite some stuff. And on this trip an outer master is more then helpful. I only can repeat: Guru Yoga opens he heart & the navel. It is such a great base for other practices. And in Vajrayana I think it is absolutely essential. I would not have been able to face certain experiences without my Guru, without trusting him.

Which does not mean that everybody needs a Guru. I just say: It is the most incredible and helpful experience I ever made. And I'd wish everybody could have one - because to me this gives every day a bigger chance to go on my path, to face my fears, my emotions, my bullshit and to not run away any longer.

 

Exactly my own experience Juju.

 

Also, this idea of we can just listen within, assumes an atman, an eternal essence? Most people just have a bunch of impressions and more subtle impressions clouding their consciousness, which is why people are not fully conscious and have to sleep. Enlightened beings don't lose awareness in bed, they are aware lucidly 24/7 because there are no more partitions between conscious, subconscious and unconscious states of mind, they are fully illumined. But, the vast majority of people are not, they have secrets within that they are not aware of, and it takes guidance to sift through this junk.

 

To do away with all Guru's is B.S. simply due to bitterness of having had a negative experience with one or two? Or reading about false ones in the paper? Generally, really good Guru's aren't going to be in the paper, because the paper generally makes more money off bad news than good news, sadly.

 

I'm just saying.