The answer lies in the India/Nepal/Tibet Himalaya Regions afterall.. and definitely NOT in china/taiwan..

[goldisheavy]

I hope you do not mind if I mix in, even if you did not adress me...

 

 

Sure we have the capacity to learn from our inner teacher. But: Until which point? If I want to learn a language or math, I will rely on a teacher as well.

 

Until which point? There is no limit.

 

Neither would I tell a child to learn by trial and error and trust the inner teacher.

 

Keep this in mind: The discussion here is one or few authoritarian teachers who are dominant and who require your submission vs learning from teachers in a non-dominating atmosphere. These teachers prefer not to call themselves "teachers." They are friends.

 

Children don't do well in authoritarian and structured environments. It's a well known fact. They grow up angry and full of resentment because everything they were taught was authoritatively beaten and jammed down their throats. Child learning environments don't have to be like that at all. There are many successful schools that don't teach in an authoritarian fashion.

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

Children don't do well in authoritarian and structured environments. It's a well known fact. They grow up angry and full of resentment because everything they were taught was authoritatively beaten and jammed down their throats. Child learning environments don't have to be like that at all. There are many successful schools that don't teach in an authoritarian fashion.

 

Every state has a few of these schools. The kids from these schools are much softer, smarter and open. Less angry, impatient and with less tendencies towards rebellion, because they just don't feel so imposed upon.

[juju]

Most people just have a bunch of impressions and more subtle impressions clouding their consciousness, which is why people are not fully conscious and have to sleep. Enlightened beings don't loose awareness in bed, they are aware lucidly 24/7 because there are no more partitions between conscious, subconscious and unconscious states of mind, they are fully illumined. But, the vast majority of people are not, they have secrets within that they are not aware of, and it takes guidance to sift through this junk.

 

Because without guidance at least I have no chance to clean all my subtle and less subtle stuff - I would get stuck in there.

I know there are people who do not need this outer teachings - as they had so many great teachings in their last lives. I know I am not one of those

 

To do away with all Guru's is B.S. simply due to bitterness of having had a negative experience with one or two? Or reading about false ones in the paper? Generally, really good Guru's aren't going to be in the paper, because the paper generally makes more money off bad news than good news, sadly.

 

I was really afraid of and not into all this Guru-stuff as well. Until I met mine. Somehow everything changed - and I just wanted to be able to learn from him. Which took me one more year

I believe that Gurus come in the right moment. And in the right way. Sometimes it just takes more time. And they do not really have a chance to work with you, if you are not opening at least a bit. Like a math-teacher - if I do not respect him (and he does not respect me) than we do not have a big chance that I will love math.

[Vajrahridaya]

JuJu, I do agree! Thanks for sharing. You seem well poised.

[goldisheavy]

I met mine. Somehow everything changed - and I just wanted to be able to learn from him. Which took me one more year

I believe that Gurus come in the right moment. And in the right way. Sometimes it just takes more time.

 

Thank heavens the scientific community doesn't work like that, or I wouldn't be using this computer now.

[juju]

Until which point? There is no limit.

exactly. but I would run away from this vast emptiness without the help of my teacher. He holds the mirror in his hands so I can see me, I can correct my direction when I am lost, and he shows me my Buddha-nature. Which without him I would not be able to face.

If you are able to do all this on your own, without getting lost - perfect. I am really really happy for you!!!

This means you are in complete bliss and complete emptiness, in awareness of everything. Great! This is the best notice to hear!

 

But I am not. And this is why I am happy to have somebody to guide me.

 

 

Keep this in mind: The discussion here is one or few authoritarian teachers who are dominant and who require your submission vs learning from teachers in a non-dominating atmosphere. These teachers prefer not to call themselves "teachers." They are friends.

I do not feel like dominated. And by the way: I see even my friends as my teachers. And you as well. Everything teaches me something. The word teacher is nothing bad. And Guru Yoga does not mean I am small and he is big. It does not mean he takes away my responsibility. I have more self-responsibility than ever before

And yes: My teacher calls himself teacher. Which I appreciate. But it is a word. Nothing else. The rest comes automatically.

 

 

Children don't do well in authoritarian and structured environments. It's a well known fact. They grow up angry and full of resentment because everything they were taught was authoritatively beaten and jammed down their throats. Child learning environments don't have to be like that at all. There are many successful schools that don't teach in an authoritarian fashion.

But children neither do well in anti-authoritarian environments. And neither should I be a friend of my child allowing him everything - just because I want him/her to love me. This leads to those strange situations where children (and later adults) do not respect anybody. not even themselves.

But I am neither (absolutely not) for being harsh or too authoritarian with children. I think you have to stimulate a child, love him, care for him - and sometimes put clear directions.

[juju]

Thank heavens the scientific community doesn't work like that, or I wouldn't be using this computer now.

Goldisheavy - even scientific community does work like this. Only when the right two people meet and share the right thoughts they will have the sudden insight which might lead to your new computer. If if was not like this, computers would exist since eternal times.

Edited June 5, 2011 by juju

[Vajrahridaya]

But children neither do well in anti-authoritarian environments. And neither should I be a friend of my child allowing him everything - just because I want him/her to love me. This leads to those strange situations where children (and later adults) do not respect anybody. not even themselves.

But I am neither (absolutely not) for being harsh or too authoritarian with children. I think you have to stimulate a child, love him, care for him - and sometimes put clear directions.

 

The teachers at these schools in the states are still authorities, they are just better at conducting peer to peer studying and group projects which count as grades towards many different subjects. Even the different teachers share information with each other as a group effort, instead of just one teacher, one hour for one subject. There is more of a spherical holistic approach to the different subjects. Of course plenty of us used the group study time to smoke pot, but still, we were more creative and always ended up doing the projects and getting good grades.

 

I agree that the words Authority and Teacher are not bad words. A person who feels this way has bad experiences with authority figures and teachers, suffered abuse and this is the impression in the emotional body of the person.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

exactly. but I would run away from this vast emptiness without the help of my teacher.

 

I know the feeling. That's exactly what happened with me. It's no reason to give up. When going gets tough, the tough get going.

 

He holds the mirror in his hands so I can see me, I can correct my direction when I am lost, and he shows me my Buddha-nature.

 

That's the function of the whole world and of what you consider to be yourself.

 

Which without him I would not be able to face.

If you are able to do all this on your own, without getting lost - perfect. I am really really happy for you!!!

 

We all can do this. Remember, we don't have to be on our own. I never said let's all become solitary hermits. We can help each other. I am here for you, but not as someone who will dominate you (although I can be firm in my expressions at times), but as a friend who may sometimes challenge you, but who is ultimately just a friend, your equal.

 

This means you are in complete bliss and complete emptiness, in awareness of everything. Great! This is the best notice to hear!

 

But I am not. And this is why I am happy to have somebody to guide me.

 

You are not? How do you know you are not?

 

I do not feel like dominated. And by the way: I see even my friends as my teachers. And you as well. Everything teaches me something. The word teacher is nothing bad.

 

Teachers don't have to be authoritarians. They don't have to wear crowns or sit on thrones.

 

But children neither do well in anti-authoritarian environments.

 

What is an "anti-authoritarian" environment?

[juju]

I know the feeling. That's exactly what happened with me. It's no reason to give up. When going gets tough, the tough get going.

 

of course not. why give up?

 

That's the function of the whole world and of what you consider to be yourself.

 

This is true. As I said, I consider the whole world, everything my teacher.

 

We all can do this. Remember, we don't have to be on our own. I never said let's all become solitary hermits. We can help each other. I am here for you, but not as someone who will dominate you (although I can be firm in my expressions at times), but as a friend who may sometimes challenge you, but who is ultimately just a friend, your equal.

 

Perfect. I am here for you as well. This is why we are in here. At least one reason why I am in here

But I still trust more in my guru than in you And I feel him as a friend. As a teacher. As a guru. As everything.

He is equal - because we are all Buddhas. But I still am more stuck inside whatsoever. And there he helps me. That's it.

He is normal, he is nothing and nobody special. He does not even try to be. And exactly this is one difference: I surely try to be someone special

 

All I am saying is: Having found a (for me) reliable master, is one of the absolute best things that happened in my life. One day I will have to let go as well this attachment towards him - but still I need him.

I just noticed how it changed me. I am more in bliss than ever before. I have less fear. I am stronger. And softer. I love myself more. And the rest of the world.

I will not convince you that this is for you - and you will not convince me that he is bad for me as he uses his traditon :-)

 

You are not? How do you know you are not?

I am pure bliss and happiness.... But quite often I still fall into misery, into self-pity, anger, ignorance.... Better said?

 

 

Teachers don't have to be authoritarians. They don't have to wear crowns or sit on thrones.

 

no. they can wear training jackets as well.

But a throne helps when you have a bigger audience. You see them, they see you.

And decoration sometimes makes it easier to see the value.

Imagine: I give you the most beautiful present, which for me is worth so very much - and hand it over to you in ugly paper with dirt and oil on it. Or I give it to you packed with love, in nice paper....

Will you give it the same value?

 

 

What is an "anti-authoritarian" environment?

Here in Germany we strongly had the anti-authoritarian movement. Kind of: children had no more rules. Which was directed as opposition to authorities, to blind following police, military, Hitler... in World War II.

What sometimes results in those things is that children do decide whatever a family does. They are the authorities.

 

I am neither a fan of this authority-system where I just can say "Yes, Sir" - nor one of the opposite.

Edited June 5, 2011 by juju

[juju]

Goldisheavy,

 

I try another approach - not to convince, but trying to explain what is the purpose of guru-yoga in my experience:

(see - you are a teacher of mine now. I need to clear my ideas more and more )

 

1) what is devotion? it is not simply saying: hey you, boss! this is kind of blind. But devotion is not intended to be blind. You can be devoted to many things. And e.g. when I am devoted to what I do, I like doing it. If am devoted to my teacher/master/guru (give him / her the name you want), then it is far easier for me, to do my daily practice. Which means as well I trust that this method/practice will help me. If I do not have this trust, it will not help. As I continuosly will struggle with it.

I could devote simply to the Buddha-nature in me. And I do. But it is really hard to see and stay in it, when I still do not really realize it.

I could simply trust and devote to Buddha. But he is just a mere idea, I do not know him. I cannot talk to him. I cannot listen to his advice, because yet I am able to see him.

Here enters the Guru. He is there. Visible. Touchable. I can argue with him. I can feel his love, he can guide me etc etc etc. And his job is not to guide me into depending on him - but the opposite. He has to take away things from me. Things I quite often do not like to give away. All my attachments (as well towards him), all my ignorance, all those "nice" things I want to keep. Like as well my sadness, my anger and all the other stuff I am stuck in.

 

2) Love: The first time I met my later teacher, in one moment I saw so much love and light in his eyes, as I never had seen before. This was the moment I started to trust him, to love him. I wanted more of this pure and complete love, of being finally accepted exactly as I am. This moment for me was incredible. I worked with this love for one year. And then finally came back to go deeper, to accept him as my teacher.

Guru Yoga is about love (and trust and devotion and letting go). To love somebody with daily less expectations is incredibly strong. To allow somebody to love me completely, is changing me in an extreme way. It hurts often. Because the more I allow myself to feel his love, the more my personal bullshit comes to the top. The more I love him, the more I have to deal with my expectations.

And yes. You can be, you are my teacher as well. But could you really handle all of my (and others) bullshit coming up? Could you really give me a hand passing through it?

I know, I can not. I can handle many things - but not all. Many things touch my personal emotional knots - and then it gets complicated. And this is, why it is so beautiful to have a realized being as a teacher/master/guru. Until now he never ever got stuck in my stuff. I never saw him get stuck in anything. And yet he is able to offer a vast clearness and "nearness" (sorry, if my english words do not always fit).

I use my teacher - he is not using me. I take all my bullshit on top of him. I give him the face of my fears, my blocks, my emotions. And as I do trust him, I can accept his hand, his help. (A hand which does not have to be the real physical hand). Just by trusting and loving, I can go nearer to my bullshit. I can face it, leave it. And see that behind all this, there is something very different than all this struggling. That there is clearness, silence.

If there is one person I can show really nakedly who I am - this is incredibly strong. And this is Guru Yoga, this is devotion. And this is what is leading towards your own inner master, to the complete realization of emptiness. This is where you find real freedom. And then you are as well free of your master.

Edited June 5, 2011 by juju

[goldisheavy]

But I still trust more in my guru than in you And I feel him as a friend. As a teacher. As a guru. As everything.

 

As everything? That's not healthy! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

 

Remember, this isn't about me. I don't want to be your Guru. I only promise to be your friend. If you think I want to replace your guru with myself, then you utterly don't understand what I am trying to accomplish here.

 

You can trust in the community of like-minded individuals. No one person alone can be your teacher, but together with you, we can do a good job teaching you everything you want to know.

[juju]

As everything? That's not healthy! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

 

Remember, this isn't about me. I don't want to be your Guru. I only promise to be your friend. If you think I want to replace your guru with myself, then you utterly don't understand what I am trying to accomplish here.

 

You can trust in the community of like-minded individuals. No one person alone can be your teacher, but together with you, we can do a good job teaching you everything you want to know.

 

Dear Goldishead, I never thought you wanted to be my Guru And I accept the friendship happily.

I knew you would stumble about the word everything and yes, it sounds like danger, if you do it blindly.

But I guess, I answered those things in my last post.

 

I really wish you will find your teacher. I know you do not want it right now. But I have a feeling you will. We well see

[goldisheavy]

Goldisheavy,

 

1) what is devotion? it is not simply saying: hey you, boss! this is kind of blind. But devotion is not intended to be blind.

 

When you say someone is your everything, devotion does become blind at that point. So you are saying some conflicting things.

 

You can be devoted to many things. And e.g. when I am devoted to what I do, I like doing it. If am devoted to my teacher/master/guru (give him / her the name you want), then it is far easier for me, to do my daily practice.

 

Is practice your end goal? If yes, then you should stay where you are. If not, then join the community I support and protect. But don't answer this too quickly. Give yourself time to think. Do you want to practice forever? What are you practicing for?

 

Which means as well I trust that this method/practice will help me.

 

Help you to achieve what exactly?

 

If I do not have this trust, it will not help.

 

How do you know it will not? Who told you this? Where did you learn this?

 

As I continuosly will struggle with it.

I could devote simply to the Buddha-nature in me. And I do. But it is really hard to see and stay in it, when I still do not really realize it.

 

This is why you have friends. You don't need to enter into a dom/sub relationship to get some help. If the only way your Guru will work with you is to have you in a dom/sub relationship, your Guru is an exploiter and an abuser. Any true Guru has enough humility to help from the position of a friend without planting one's ass on a fancy throne (literally or metaphorically).

 

I could simply trust and devote to Buddha. But he is just a mere idea, I do not know him. I cannot talk to him. I cannot listen to his advice, because yet I am able to see him.

 

That's not true. Buddha has left many teachings behind. Those teachings are his testament. They are reliable and worthy and they are so powerful, than nothing whatsoever needs to be added on top to make them effective. I speak from personal experience here. Buddha is with us right now. I see it thus very clearly.

 

Here enters the Guru. He is there. Visible. Touchable. I can argue with him. I can feel his love, he can guide me etc etc etc. And his job is not to guide me into depending on him - but the opposite. He has to take away things from me. Things I quite often do not like to give away. All my attachments (as well towards him), all my ignorance, all those "nice" things I want to keep. Like as well my sadness, my anger and all the other stuff I am stuck in.

 

2) Love: The first time I met my later teacher, in one moment I saw so much love and light in his eyes, as I never had seen before. This was the moment I started to trust him, to love him. I wanted more of this pure and complete love, of being finally accepted exactly as I am. This moment for me was incredible. I worked with this love for one year. And then finally came back to go deeper, to accept him as my teacher.

Guru Yoga is about love (and trust and devotion and letting go). To love somebody with daily less expectations is incredibly strong. To allow somebody to love me completely, is changing me in an extreme way. It hurts often. Because the more I allow myself to feel his love, the more my personal bullshit comes to the top. The more I love him, the more I have to deal with my expectations.

 

Are authoritarianism and submission required for love?

 

And yes. You can be, you are my teacher as well. But could you really handle all of my (and others) bullshit coming up?

 

Because I am only one person the short answer is no. Even if I am very wise and very strong, I can't necessarily handle everything to your liking. If your liking is not an issue, then I can handle it all, yes. But luckily I am not alone. There are many friends you can find here who are very skillful.

 

And one more time -- it is authoritarianism and secret exclusivity that I protest. Not love. Not the act of teaching.

 

Could you really give me a hand passing through it?

I know, I can not. I can handle many things - but not all. Many things touch my personal emotional knots - and then it gets complicated. And this is, why it is so beautiful to have a realized being as a teacher/master/guru.

 

So you decided that your teacher is realized. Can you please tell me how you have come to this conclusion?

 

Until now he never ever got stuck in my stuff. I never saw him get stuck in anything. And yet he is able to offer a vast clearness and "nearness" (sorry, if my english words do not always fit).

I use my teacher - he is not using me. I take all my bullshit on top of him. I give him the face of my fears, my blocks, my emotions. And as I do trust him, I can accept his hand, his help. (A hand which does not have to be the real physical hand). Just by trusting and loving, I can go nearer to my bullshit. I can face it, leave it. And see that behind all this, there is something very different than all this struggling. That there is clearness, silence.

If there is one person I can show really nakedly who I am - this is incredibly strong. And this is Guru Yoga, this is devotion.

 

You just described trust and not devotion. And if your teacher doesn't mind making you some tea, then it's OK.

 

And this is what is leading towards your own inner master, to the complete realization of emptiness. This is where you find real freedom. And then you are as well free of your master.

 

Ask your teacher this question, "When do you think I will be fine learning and practicing on my own?" He'll probably give you a reasonable and finite timeline, something measured in a number of years. Hold him to it! Put it down on paper so you don't forget the promise.

 

If he says you have to be his student indefinitely and nothing less will do, that's not a good sign. It means he either has no plans on getting you up on your own two feet, or lacks the necessary know-how or courage (and that's just the best case scenario).

[goldisheavy]

I really wish you will find your teacher. I know you do not want it right now. But I have a feeling you will. We well see

 

That's a terrible wish on your part. If you truly want to help me, then wish me this,

 

"May you realize perfect wisdom and freedom immediately!"

"May you become liberation on sight phenomenon!"

"May your Buddha-field be brimming with enlightened beings!"

 

Now this will be an effective wish. Don't wish me any useless delays or disempowering thoughts. I am a lot stronger than you can understand. I eat demons at night. I mean this literally. There is not much that can scare me or disturb me because I've been scared and disturbed to my core already, so I know what it is and I am not afraid. I am ready to die immediately, as in, right now. I am also equally ready to live, even live in your face, if necessary. Just think this over and don't be wishing me any kind of a useless ball and a chain.

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

That's a terrible wish on your part. If you truly want to help me, then wish me this,

 

"May you realize perfect wisdom and freedom immediately!"

"May you become liberation on sight phenomenon!"

"May your Buddha-field be brimming with enlightened beings!"

 

Now this will be an effective wish. Don't wish me any useless delays or disempowering thoughts. I am a lot stronger than you can understand. I eat demons at night. I mean this literally. There is not much that can scare me or disturb me because I've been scared and disturbed to my core already, so I know what it is and I am not afraid. I am ready to die immediately, as in, right now. I am also equally ready to live, even live in your face, if necessary. Just think this over and don't be wishing me any kind of a useless ball and a chain.

 

Wow, get the intention of her wish for you. Don't get all dogmatic and reactionary. That is a nice prayer you mentioned though...

 

Yes GIH, I do wish those aspects of reality for you... and me as well!

 

Actually... for everyone!!

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[juju]

Is practice your end goal? If yes, then you should stay where you are. If not, then join the community I support and protect. But don't answer this too quickly. Give yourself time to think. Do you want to practice forever? What are you practicing for?

I answer quickly No, practice can not be the final goal. It just leads to what is called enlightenment. And I hope it will lead there the soon as possibile

For sure it leads every day to more easiness, bliss, non-attachment, less anger and so on.

 

If I do not have this trust, it will not help.

 

How do you know it will not? Who told you this? Where did you learn this?

Easy example: If I do not trust my doctor, it will be hard for him to help me. Maybe I follow some of his advices - but I always will search for an easy way out. Only eat vegetables every second day, instead of every day as he might have told me.... It can help - but not as much as when I do trust him.

 

This is why you have friends. You don't need to enter into a dom/sub relationship to get some help. If the only way your Guru will work with you is to have you in a dom/sub relationship, your Guru is an exploiter and an abuser. Any true Guru has enough humility to help from the position of a friend without planting one's ass on a fancy throne (literally or metaphorically).

I do not say anything against friends. And a Guru is not my dom, neither am I his sub. He is as well a friend. And we were quite often sitting together when he is not sitting on a throne - neither literally nor metaphorically. He is more humble than most of the people I do know.

 

That's not true. Buddha has left many teachings behind. Those teachings are his testament. They are reliable and worthy and they are so powerful, than nothing whatsoever needs to be added on top to make them effective. I speak from personal experience here. Buddha is with us right now. I see it thus very clearly.

Yes, he left many teaching, many advice and sure he is with us. But he still is a being who does not have a human, touchable body.

 

 

Are authoritarianism and submission required for love?

no.

But I do not see this conflict with authority you see. And I do not feel submissive.

 

 

Because I am only one person the short answer is no. Even if I am very wise and very strong, I can't necessarily handle everything to your liking. If your liking is not an issue, then I can handle it all, yes. But luckily I am not alone. There are many friends you can find here who are very skillful.

 

And one more time -- it is authoritarianism and secret exclusivity that I protest. Not love. Not the act of teaching.

Then we agree. As a guru is nothing else than a teacher. And I can have a drink and a laugh with my teacher.

Anyway: My liking cannot be the issue. If it was my liking, then nobody could teach me. Because I do not like to get rid of my ignorance, my stuck emotions. It hurts. But once I passed through - all this bullshit is just gone.

But yet I do not think that you could be the one who is able to lead me through this. Maybe I am wrong and you really know so many things - but as I do not believe that, there is not a real chance for you to help me.

 

So you decided that your teacher is realized. Can you please tell me how you have come to this conclusion?

 

Yes. By simply watching him, seeing how he behaves, how he is in his everyday-life, how he handles all those situations coming up. Maybe he is not. This is alright with me. But as I do trust him, this helps me to help myself.

And I see how many people change, simply by using his techniques, simply by trusting him. For me, this is enough.

 

You just described trust and not devotion. And if your teacher doesn't mind making you some tea, then it's OK.

I am thinking if he ever made some tea for me. Possible. He did many things for me. Like I did many things for him. Everything in the right moment.

And complete love and trust is nothing else than devotion

I guess your idea of devotion is, just to take away every self-responsibility. But it is not! It just makes you stronger and smoother in the same moment.

 

Ask your teacher this question, "When do you think I will be fine learning and practicing on my own?" He'll probably give you a reasonable and finite timeline, something measured in a number of years. Hold him to it! Put it down on paper so you don't forget the promise.

 

If he says you have to be his student indefinitely and nothing less will do, that's not a good sign. It means he either has no plans on getting you up on your own two feet, or lacks the necessary know-how or courage (and that's just the best case scenario).

 

His goal surely is not to hold me there for the next 50 lifes

As I said his goal is to take away every attachment towards him. And to all those other subtle and less subtle attachments. And bring me (and as many people as possible) to Buddhahood.

[goldisheavy]

Wow, get the intention of her wish for you. Don't get all dogmatic and reactionary. That is a nice prayer you mentioned though...

 

Get my intention.

 

Yes GIH, I do wish those aspects of reality for you... and me as well!

 

Actually... for everyone!!

 

Excellent! I am glad to hear it. Same here.

[juju]

That's a terrible wish on your part. If you truly want to help me, then wish me this,

 

"May you realize perfect wisdom and freedom immediately!"

"May you become liberation on sight phenomenon!"

"May your Buddha-field be brimming with enlightened beings!"

 

Now this will be an effective wish. Don't wish me any useless delays or disempowering thoughts. I am a lot stronger than you can understand. I eat demons at night. I mean this literally. There is not much that can scare me or disturb me because I've been scared and disturbed to my core already, so I know what it is and I am not afraid. I am ready to die immediately, as in, right now. I am also equally ready to live, even live in your face, if necessary. Just think this over and don't be wishing me any kind of a useless ball and a chain.

 

Of course I wish you all those things like immediate wisdom and freedom. No doubt about that. I like those wishes!

If you find the way to go there in an instant - I am very very very happy for you!!!

 

Maybe you are far stronger than I can understand. But I have the impression you fight. You need to underline your strength. Which in my tiny opinion is the opposite of being free.

 

I just wished you something which in my experience is very helpful. As it opens, as it gives a different strength. I basically just wished you that you might be able to stop fighting and to be completely, absolutely happy and free. Which is what you asked me for.

The rest is nothing than one possibility to arrive there - and it comes on its own, whatever is suited for you at this point.

But: As you argue so much, and with such an intensity against all "authorities", against teachers and of course even more about Gurus - I have this slight idea that this is what you are looking for. Deep inside. Somewhere.

And if it might be so - then I wish you might find it. If this is not your way... ok.

[goldisheavy]

I answer quickly No, practice can not be the final goal. It just leads to what is called enlightenment.

 

You still didn't quite state what your goal is. You assume that practice leads to enlightenment. I guess your real goal is enlightenment, although you didn't quite say it like that.

 

What is enlightenment? In other words, what is the person like when that person is enlightened?

 

And I hope it will lead there the soon as possibile

For sure it leads every day to more easiness, bliss, non-attachment, less anger and so on.

 

Your practice might just be something that takes your mind off the real issues. I am not judging your practice because I don't know what your practice is.

 

Easy example: If I do not trust my doctor, it will be hard for him to help me.

 

Yes, trust is necessary. Of course I've always maintained this. The whole brouhaha was over devotion and not trust. Remember? Do you need to be devoted to your doctor to get help?

 

Maybe I follow some of his advices - but I always will search for an easy way out. Only eat vegetables every second day, instead of every day as he might have told me....

 

There is nothing wrong with this, actually. In fact, this kind of lingering can be essential in the learning process. Your motivation has to be genuine. You can't pretend your way toward enlightenment and your Guru can't ride you like a horse toward it either.

 

I do not say anything against friends. And a Guru is not my dom, neither am I his sub. He is as well a friend. And we were quite often sitting together when he is not sitting on a throne - neither literally nor metaphorically. He is more humble than most of the people I do know.

 

I am a 2010 gold medalist in the Humblympics.

 

Yes, he left many teaching, many advice and sure he is with us. But he still is a being who does not have a human, touchable body.

 

Right. Instead he has many human touchable bodies. This is called "community."

 

no.

But I do not see this conflict with authority you see. And I do not feel submissive.

 

Well, if someone is your everything, that's submission. Make no mistake about it.

 

Then we agree. As a guru is nothing else than a teacher. And I can have a drink and a laugh with my teacher.

Anyway: My liking cannot be the issue. If it was my liking, then nobody could teach me. Because I do not like to get rid of my ignorance, my stuck emotions. It hurts. But once I passed through - all this bullshit is just gone.

But yet I do not think that you could be the one who is able to lead me through this. Maybe I am wrong and you really know so many things - but as I do not believe that, there is not a real chance for you to help me.

 

This again?

 

Yes. By simply watching him, seeing how he behaves, how he is in his everyday-life, how he handles all those situations coming up. Maybe he is not. This is alright with me. But as I do trust him, this helps me to help myself.

 

And I see how many people change, simply by using his techniques, simply by trusting him. For me, this is enough.

 

 

I am thinking if he ever made some tea for me. Possible. He did many things for me. Like I did many things for him. Everything in the right moment.

And complete love and trust is nothing else than devotion

 

Well, your story is not completely consistent on this.

 

I guess your idea of devotion is, just to take away every self-responsibility. But it is not! It just makes you stronger and smoother in the same moment.

 

His goal surely is not to hold me there for the next 50 lifes

As I said his goal is to take away every attachment towards him. And to all those other subtle and less subtle attachments. And bring me (and as many people as possible) to Buddhahood.

 

So 12 years on paper? How about it?

[juju]

Well, your story is not completely consistent on this.

 

sure I start to be tired of writing and thinking so much in English

 

Have a great day!

[ralis]

The Kabbalah system is interesting though... I found it quite nice to read when I was a Shaivite, I thought it was basically saying the same thing that Shaivism says.

 

 

Yes, well that system sounds much like the system of Kashmir Shaivism, reifying the state of "beyond perception and non-perception." I don't know... I see it as a limited way of conditioning the spiritual experience. Ain is like Paramashiva the tattva beyond tattvas, the ground of being where any sense of self reference dissolves into the ultimate void, Bhairava. This is really just a layer in the Alayavijnana though, the deep unconscious of an individual, where the emptiness of all things and beings is directly experienced as a negative "void", pregnant with potential.

 

The Kabbalah system is interesting though... I found it quite nice to read when I was a Shaivite, I thought it was basically saying the same thing that Shaivism says.

 

 

 

 

 

The 'Zohar' is one part of a vast catalog of works under the general heading of Kabbalah. Most of the Kabbalistic texts has never been translated due to lack of funds. 'Zohar' is written in Aramaic and is very difficult to translate into English. However, Dr. Matt has been given unlimited funds to complete the 10 volumes in his lifetime.

 

Kabbalah as most Westerners know it are books that are fragments of a greater system and most books found are written by hacks who know nothing of Hebrew or Aramaic. Dr. Matt and Aryeh Kaplan are the two main scholars that have completed the most translations.

 

I challenge your contention that you know something about Kabbalah or even 'Zohar'. You read something called Kabbalah and now you think you are qualified to make judgments! To compare those works to something else such as Kashmir Shaivism without in depth study is preposterous.

Edited June 5, 2011 by ralis

[goldisheavy]

Of course I wish you all those things like immediate wisdom and freedom. No doubt about that. I like those wishes!

If you find the way to go there in an instant - I am very very very happy for you!!!

 

I am in fact already what you call "there" here. I don't ask for help. When I needed help, I asked for it and got it.

 

Maybe you are far stronger than I can understand. But I have the impression you fight. You need to underline your strength. Which in my tiny opinion is the opposite of being free.

 

I want to decorate this space. Do you understand?

 

I just wished you something which in my experience is very helpful.

 

I want you to wish the end-state on me, and not what you believe the journey is! When you wish your own peculiar journey on me, you are slowing me down. You probably don't mean to, but that's what happens.

 

Think of it this way. Imagine that you live somewhere in Eurasia and I live in the North America. You are journeying through the Sahara desert to eventually get to Paris. I am also going to that same place, but I am coming from North America. And you wish, "May you journey through the Sahara Desert!" I am like, what?? I don't need to do that. My task is to cross the Atlantic Ocean. I don't want to end up in Sahara. Not really.

 

So it's better to wish the person to end up wherever one intends to end up, without mixing your ideas of what it takes to get there into the wish.

 

As it opens, as it gives a different strength. I basically just wished you that you might be able to stop fighting and to be completely, absolutely happy and free. Which is what you asked me for.

The rest is nothing than one possibility to arrive there - and it comes on its own, whatever is suited for you at this point.

But: As you argue so much, and with such an intensity against all "authorities", against teachers and of course even more about Gurus - I have this slight idea that this is what you are looking for. Deep inside. Somewhere.

And if it might be so - then I wish you might find it. If this is not your way... ok.

 

Well, I am just doing a little spring cleaning.

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[ralis]

You still didn't quite state what your goal is. You assume that practice leads to enlightenment. I guess your real goal is enlightenment, although you didn't quite say it like that.

 

 

 

I remember Norbu being absolutely clear that practices are secondary and Rigpa, enlightenment, realization or whatever one calls it is the primary state i.e, the natural state.

[ralis]

The teachers at these schools in the states are still authorities, they are just better at conducting peer to peer studying and group projects which count as grades towards many different subjects. Even the different teachers share information with each other as a group effort, instead of just one teacher, one hour for one subject. There is more of a spherical holistic approach to the different subjects. Of course plenty of us used the group study time to smoke pot, but still, we were more creative and always ended up doing the projects and getting good grades.

 

I agree that the words Authority and Teacher are not bad words. A person who feels this way has bad experiences with authority figures and teachers, suffered abuse and this is the impression in the emotional body of the person.

 

A good friend of mine who became a student of Reshad Feild told me that Reshad was a "beautiful authority" and he submitted to that. I know what that did to his life and about 50 others here in town. Reshad is an alcoholic and that speaks volumes as to what he really is. I saw that immediately and refused to work with the guy!