[TTC Study] Chapter 39 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[manitou]

All translations of this point to the Oneness. The 'spirits' are part of the oneness. The ten thousand things are part of the Oneness.

 

The thing that jumps out at me is....look at the world now. It's about as far from Oneness as we can get, or at least that which is visible. It's not only man that is going in a lot of different directions - the strife, the upheavals, all over the world. And the earth itself seems to be upheaving; earthquakes, strange storms, floods, droughts - each day seems to bring a new catastrophe.

 

To my way of thinking, there is a definite relationship between man's strife and struggle and the strife and struggle of the earth. We are the Creator. I wonder.....if mankind were to learn to love each other and live and let live, would the physical symptoms the earth is going through alleviate? That's about as One as you can get

[Marblehead]

I wonder.....if mankind were to learn to love each other and live and let live, would the physical symptoms the earth is going through alleviate? That's about as One as you can get

 

Well, the maximum estimate of the homo being on this planet is four million years. All of recorded history telss of man killing man for one reason or another. One can properly assume that it was going on before written language was developed to tell about it.

 

Now there are a lot more people on the planet so there are a lot more people to kill.

 

Do you really believe that things are going to change for the better when the population of humans keeps increasing?

 

Best Wishes. (You might need a miracle too. I don't do those.)

[manitou]

Well, the maximum estimate of the homo being on this planet is four million years. All of recorded history telss of man killing man for one reason or another. One can properly assume that it was going on before written language was developed to tell about it.

 

Now there are a lot more people on the planet so there are a lot more people to kill.

 

Do you really believe that things are going to change for the better when the population of humans keeps increasing?

 

Best Wishes. (You might need a miracle too. I don't do those.)

 

 

I'm not looking at the underbelly. I'm looking at the fact that enlightened people the world over are able to communicate with each other instantaneously. I think it has more to do with technology than miracles.

[Marblehead]

I'm not looking at the underbelly. I'm looking at the fact that enlightened people the world over are able to communicate with each other instantaneously. I think it has more to do with technology than miracles.

 

Hehehe. Okay, I'm with you now. For a minute there I thought you might really be getting for the Rapture on Saturday.

 

True, technology has helped a lot. It may come to be that there is an enlightened world class of people who remain outside the controls of politics and religion. That would be a group of people I would want to become a part of.

[manitou]

Hehehe. Okay, I'm with you now. For a minute there I thought you might really be getting for the Rapture on Saturday.

 

True, technology has helped a lot. It may come to be that there is an enlightened world class of people who remain outside the controls of politics and religion. That would be a group of people I would want to become a part of.

 

 

Forums like this are where we meet. Our reach is worldwide. Our politics are different, our hearts are not. This gelling of the enlightened thinkers will cross-section everything else. It is the Way.

[Marblehead]

Forums like this are where we meet. Our reach is worldwide. Our politics are different, our hearts are not. This gelling of the enlightened thinkers will cross-section everything else. It is the Way.

 

Well said. Leaves me with nothing to say at the moment.

[Eric23]

It may come to be that there is an enlightened world class of people who remain outside the controls of politics and religion. That would be a group of people I would want to become a part of.

 

That would be very cool. However the deep grip that "the system" has on us in the developed part of the world makes me wonder if it could ever happen. I'm talking about the banking system, technology etc; the underlying infrastructure that one has to be linked in with to purchase goods and secure shelter. It would probably take a global crisis event to break down that infrastructure to where one could slip out (presuming one survives the crisis).

 

Reading both chapters 38 & 39, I was struck by how our rulers (all of them, political, educational, business) operate in complete antithesis of Lao Zu's advice.

[Marblehead]

Hi Eric,

 

Valid comments, all.

 

Yeah, it would be hard to work with the system but yet not be a part of it. Would require a bit of self-supporting though.

 

Yeah, I always wonder if our leaders all slept during their history classes. They seem to continue making the same mistakes over and over again.

[Apech]

There is unity in nature and also unity in the things of nature ... the sky, the earth and so on. The inner unity of sky means also it is not mixed with earth and visa versa. Things are what they are ... this makes them stable. If human beings could be just what/who they are instead of being proud, angry and so on then they would have the same kind of oneness as the sky.

 

Our systems of politics and government prevent this kind of oneness ... hence the mistakes, wars and so on.

 

I think we may have to wait a long, long time for any of this to change.

[Marblehead]

I think we may have to wait a long, long time for any of this to change.

 

True, but being an optimist I must add, but peaceful change is possible.

[stan herman]

Forums like this are where we meet. Our reach is worldwide. Our politics are different, our hearts are not. This gelling of the enlightened thinkers will cross-section everything else. It is the Way.

 

The responses are Interesting. There seems to be a unanimity of interpretation that 'Oneness' is the meeting of loving hearts and its product is quietude and contentment. And absent (that version) of Oneness there is calamity, which is what we have in the world now.

 

While i appreciate this view and understand its appeal to many, I find it incomplete and misleading. For me oneness (like the yin-yang symbol) does not reject, but contains duality within itself. It includes the rich diversity of peace and conflict, contentment and ambition and all the 10,000 foibles our humanity has been and continues to be heir to.

 

I hope this comment will be considered in the context within which it is offered, I do not mean it as advocacy for violence, but for an expansion of viewpoint. If you disagree with it, I will consider your disagreements carefully.

 

Btw I will post an alternate version of 39 in Tao Now for your comments.

[Marblehead]

Hi Stan,

 

I feel comfortable with how I believe Manitou will respond to this post so I have no concern about responding to your post even though it is directed to her. She is working on something right now so she must maintain her very optimistic outlook.

 

While i appreciate this view and understand its appeal to many, I find it incomplete and misleading. For me oneness (like the yin-yang symbol) does not reject, but contains duality within itself. It includes the rich diversity of peace and conflict, contentment and ambition and all the 10,000 foibles our humanity has been and continues to be heir to.

 

I hope this comment will be considered in the context within which it is offered, I do not mean it as advocacy for violence, but for an expansion of viewpoint. If you disagree with it, I will consider your disagreements carefully.

 

Yes, the ten thousand things include some things that each of us individually do not care too much for. We don't like all the conflict and violence. But that too is part of Tao. To ignore it is an error, I think.

 

No, I don't think you are advocating violence. Just stating that we must recognize its existence. By being aware we can most times avoid getting involved in it.

 

Thanks for joining the discussion.

[manitou]

Thanks for the understanding and kind words, Marbles.

 

Actually, I'm always this optimistic. It may be illusion on my part, but I believe that earnestly working through the 12 steps of recovery, reading metaphysical literature for 40 years, having the seed planted by attending Manley Hall lectures in the 60's (channelings, actually), going through and eschewing many spiritual mindsets, being captured by Castaneda accidentally, and falling in love with the TTC (and finding all of you!) has brought me down further and further into the reality of self.

 

Or at least what I would call the reality. I think it's Love. And don't forget that one of the Three Treasures of the sage is Love.

 

Yes, there are the 10,000 things, and at this time war is part of it. But there is always room for Love, even if your enemy's neck is at the point of your sword. Love isn't necessarily optimistic or naive. It merely Is, and everyone on the face of the earth deserves it from me.

 

Because of who I Am. Because I have discovered who I Am.

Edited May 21, 2011 by manitou

[Mr. T]

hey folks!

 

i love how this chapter reads...what a great poem! also, it is pretty cool how the first section of the chapter are all separate aspects of the individual...the mind, the heart, the stomach...energy centers if you will. i'll include the lin translation now so i can ask a question i have always had about this chapter...

 

Those that attained oneness since ancient times:

The sky attained oneness and thus clarity

The earth attained oneness and thus tranquility

The gods attained oneness and thus divinity

The valley attained oneness and thus abundance

The myriad things attained oneness and thus life

The rulers attained oneness and became the standard for the world

These all emerged from oneness

 

The sky, lacking clarity, would break apart

The earth, lacking tranquility, would erupt

The gods, lacking divinity, would vanish

The valley, lacking abundance, would wither

Myriad things, lacking life, would be extinct

The rulers, lacking standard, would be toppled

 

Therefore, the honored uses the lowly as basis

The higher uses the lower as foundation

Thus the rulers call themselves alone, bereft, and unworthy

Is this not using the lowly as basis? Is it not so?

Therefore, the ultimate honor is no honor

 

Do not wish to be shiny like jade

Be dull like rocks

 

Derek Lin, translator

 

 

so if you have this one and you read the commentary, it says that the sky is the mind becoming clear, the earth is the heart stilling, so on so forth...i have always wondered what part of us "the rulers" represent. is it the voice of conscious that most (some) of us have? it clearly says these all emerged from oneness (which i take to mean that they are all a part of us, the individual, somehow. sure, it also means they all emerged from the tao, but are we not living embodiments of that great thing?

 

anyways, just some questions i have always had about this chapter...it's really a good one. looking forward to your thoughts, thanks! see ya...

[Marblehead]

so if you have this one and you read the commentary, it says that the sky is the mind becoming clear, the earth is the heart stilling, so on so forth...i have always wondered what part of us "the rulers" represent. is it the voice of conscious that most (some) of us have? it clearly says these all emerged from oneness (which i take to mean that they are all a part of us, the individual, somehow. sure, it also means they all emerged from the tao, but are we not living embodiments of that great thing?

 

anyways, just some questions i have always had about this chapter...it's really a good one. looking forward to your thoughts, thanks! see ya...

 

Thanks for the translation. Excellent question. Something I had never inquired about so this is a new thought for me.

 

I think Wayne Wang speaks to this well so I will present his translation beginning with line 12:

 

12. A lord does not show his full high stature, otherwise his high stature may disappear.

13. Nobleness takes lowliness as its base. High takes low as its support.

14. This is why the lord calls himself the abandoned, deserted, or useless.

15. This is to show the base of his lowliness. It is not for any other reason.

16. Therefore, striving for honors will bring no honors.

 

Looks like we are talking about ego here, doesn't it?

[manitou]

Looks like we are talking about ego here, doesn't it?

 

 

Ego, and the other side of the coin, Humility. If we maintain the mindset that we're merely a projector showing It a movie, then ego can remain at bay. I've heard it said that humility is giving credit where credit is due. In essence, 'we' can take credit for nothing. It is all being done for us, through us. We are the humble channel. It is only then that It will awaken and shine through.

[anatman]

[Marblehead]

Rather than tinkle like jade,

One should clatter like stones.

 

most translations say shine like jade,and be dull like stones.my understanding is that jade does both(from what i've seen).nothing new to add to the comments really,at this point.

 

I have seen one translation, don't remember whose, the last two lines are:

 

Rather than tinkle like jade,

Rumble like the rocks.

[Mr. T]

hmmm,

 

i don't remember equating this chapter to a discussion of the ego, but now that you bring it up it seems that is exactly what it is about. the higher propping themselves up on the lower...one would have to be very ego free in order for that arrangement to be successful! perhaps the "oneness" written about is the combing and settling of the ego and humility...learning that balance will bring about true virtue in the human being? so could the rulers of the chapter represent the ego self? at the risk of bringing too much psychology into the mix, it would make sense that our innermost needs and desires could be considered our rulers, and those would contribute to the ego manifesting itself in our daily lives...

 

lots of good comments and thoughts to ponder in this thread, thanks folks...

Edited May 22, 2011 by Mr. T

[Marblehead]

Ah, humility. I am glad you and Manitou are here because I don't speak about that very often.

 

... perhaps the "oneness" written about is the combing and settling of the ego and humility...learning that balance will bring about true virtue in the human being? so could the rulers of the chapter represent the ego self? at the risk of bringing too much psychology into the mix, it would make sense that our innermost needs and desires could be considered our rulers, and those would contribute to the ego manifesting itself in our daily lives...

 

 

So many questions - so few answers.

 

I think that this line might be speaking to the concept of humility as well:

 

"And without support, the rulers fall."

 

The ruler knows that without the support of his/her followers there would be no followers to lead.

 

Perhaps it could be said that the ruler does represent ego, or rather, the decreasing of the ego and the increasing of humility.

[Mr. T]

hey marbles and all...

 

when you wrote of the ego decreasing and humility increasing it made me think of the couple other examples i can think of in nature. what this has to do with 39, i'm not sure and i apologize if it goes slightly away from topic

 

potential and kinetic energy

yin and yang

parent and daughter isotopes in nuclear decay

night and day

 

i suppose you could say that each depends on the other, like the ruler and the subjects.

 

anyways, a visitor just arrived, see ya later

[Marblehead]

hey marbles and all...

 

when you wrote of the ego decreasing and humility increasing it made me think of the couple other examples i can think of in nature. what this has to do with 39, i'm not sure and i apologize if it goes slightly away from topic

 

potential and kinetic energy

yin and yang

parent and daughter isotopes in nuclear decay

night and day

 

i suppose you could say that each depends on the other, like the ruler and the subjects.

 

anyways, a visitor just arrived, see ya later

 

Well, enjoy your guest.

 

Yeah, the one giving way to the other. Harmany is what I call this.

 

Sometimes we need be strong and forceful and other times we need be receptive and compliant.

 

No, I don't know what it has to do with Chapter 39 either but I don't think it matters.

[zerostao]

to see unity in multiplicity is one way to the understanding of creativity.

unity can never remain static. it is both static and dynamic at the same once.

the static aspect shows us the changeless. in movement we see it as changes.

with understanding the unity of the multiplicity, we must also see the changeless

within the ever-changing. until we do this we cannot comprehend the power of the great creativity.

when unity remains within itself it is changeless. when it reflects itself it creates.

to understand the complete process of creation, we have to understand the concept of the changeless within the ever-changing.( "there is a point in time when the arrow neither moves or stops")

"the sages contemplate 10,000 years and conceive them as a pure complete oneness"

chuang tzu.

 

obtaining the one, all things lived and grew.

the one is the source of creativity.

"all things" "are created by themselves"

but in each instance of creativity there is the infinite potential of unity.

 

lifting a finger is the slightest of gestures, but when it is viewed from the vantage point of the absolute moment it generates the power of the divine and blossoms

into creative vitality.

obtaining the one, heaven was made clear.

obtaining the one, earth was made stable.

obtaining the one, the gods were made spiritual.

 

relativity which is conditioned by time and space, here the arrow moves from point to point and from second to second. we detect its movement. but

from the absolute view which is free of spatial and temporal limitations

there appears no movement. the arrow moves all the time but at the same time it does not move at all.

lao tzu says the Tao created the One.

 

our understanding of this MUST come intuitively and not logically.

lao tzu has already mentioned before;

"all things are together in action, but i look into their non-action,

for all things are continuously moving, restless, yet each is proceeding

back to it's origin. proceeding back to it's origin means quiescence.

quiescence means being-for -itself. being for itself means the ever- changing

changeless. To understand the ever-changing changeless is to be enlightened"

 

the changeless is the invisible complete oneness.

[Marblehead]

WoW! Zerostao.

 

You have left me speechless. That doesn't happen very often.

 

Thanks for the post.