[TTC Study] Chapter 39 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 39
1. 昔之得一者。
2. 天得一以清。
3. 地得一以寧。
4. 神得一以靈。
5. 谷得一以盈。
6. 萬物得一以生。
7. 侯王得一以為天下正。
8. 其致之也。
9. 謂天無以清,將恐裂。
10. 地無以寧,將恐廢。
11. 神無以靈,將恐歇。
12. 谷無以盈將恐竭。
13. 萬物無以生,將恐滅。
14. 侯王無以貞,將恐蹶。
15. 故貴以賤為本，
16. 高以下為基。
17. 是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。
18. 此非以賤為本邪﹖
19. 非乎。
20. 故至譽無譽。
21. 是故不欲琭琭如玉,
22. 珞珞如石。

Chapter 39
1. Since those who gained unity:
2. Heaven gained unity became clear;
3. Earth gained unity became peaceful;
4. God gained unity became miraculous;
5. Valley gained unity became full;
6. All things gained unity became alive;
7. Rulers gained unity made world peace.
8. In the contrary,
9. Heaven is not clear , afraid it will split;
10.Earth is not peaceful, afraid it will quake;
11.God without miracle, afraid it will disappear;
12.Valley is not full, afraid it will dry out;
13.All things cannot grow, afraid they will extinct;
14.Rulers without standards, afraid they will overthrown.
15.Hence, with cringe as the basis for nobility,
16.With low as the foundation of height,
17.Therefore, rulers proclaimed themselves as loner, solely and unkind.
18.This is not using cringe as basis for humbleness...?
19.Is it...?
20.Therefore, supremacy has no need for glorification.
21.Hence, no desire to be as magnificent as jade,
22.Rather be as hard as a rock.

Edited February 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

21.Hence, no desire to be as magnificent as jade,

22.Rather be as hard as a rock.

 

Ah!, but it is fun to occasionally sparkle like the jade.

 

(But rumble like the rocks when necessary.)

[Stosh]

Jumping in to wet my feet

and greatly reduced..hopefully not out of place ,,

 

Reciprocal to limitless potential, defined by its nature distinct, the ten thousand things take form.

Similarly leadership is defined by its distinction from its source (the masses),

and so pride in station is misplaced ,since it represents dimunition of all the rest of its initial potential.

[Marblehead]

Hi Stosh,

 

No, your comments are not out of place; they are in order, I think.

 

Yes, a leader must have those who wish to be led. One cannot call one's self a leader if no one is following.

 

(I was going to ramble but I will stop for mow.)

[Stosh]

Hi Stosh,

 

No, your comments are not out of place; they are in order, I think.

 

Yes, a leader must have those who wish to be led. One cannot call one's self a leader if no one is following.

 

(I was going to ramble but I will stop for mow.)

 

Im fine with your rambling

Prefer it

Rambling, the brother of whim, sister of spontenaity

the child which remains

when the super-ego is restrained

often wholesome unguarded and true

[The Observer]

Great post Zerostao! The only disagreement I had was with this part:

 

our understanding of this MUST come intuitively and not logically.

 

 

I don't think the 2 are mutually opposed. Just like the taiji symbol I think one can give birth to the other in a spiral of ascending growth.

[Brian]

I am struck by the fact that, in each translation, the things being described are whole (or with Oneness or something along those lines )AND then acquire another positive attribute, which I am taking to be a healthy by-product of attaining wholeness, and it is that characteristic rather than "just" Oneness which averts calamitous outcomes in the second half of the chapter.

 

Perhaps part of the message is that attaining Oneness is the path rather than the destination.

Edited June 8, 2012 by A Seeker

[ChiDragon]

I am struck by the fact that, in each translation, the things being described are whole (or with Oneness or something along those lines )AND then acquire another positive attribute, which I am taking to be a healthy by-product of attaining wholeness, and it is that characteristic rather than "just" Oneness which averts calamitous outcomes in the second half of the chapter.

 

Perhaps part of the message is that attaining Oneness is the path rather than the destination.

To be its Oneness simply means to make oneself as part of the whole. For example, when it says: 天人合一（heaven and human combined as ONE). It means human to live with Nature and blend oneself with Nature as part of the whole(One).

 

PS...

The confusion here was that the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching treats human, earth, heaven and Tao as separate entities. That means human has to cope with human, earth and heaven by following the principles of Tao. One of the principles is to have human deal with Nature(heaven) as part of a natrual way of life.

Edited June 8, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

To be its Oneness simply means to make oneself as part of the whole. For example, when it says: 天人合一（heaven and human combined as ONE). It means human to live with Nature and blend oneself with Nature as part of the whole(One).

 

Thank you, ChiDragon. I think I understood that part. My thought is that making oneself part of the whole (or, more correctly, recognizing that one is already part of the whole) is not the point of the chapter but that the positive attributes the chapter references (clear, firm, stron, firm, alive, upright) which are described as "in virtue of wholeness" are the important elements of the chapter. Humility is the essence -- humility about these positive attributes with which one is naturally imbued as one learns to live as part of the whole. Finding Oneness isn't the point, the point is being humble about pre-existing attributes uncovered merely by walking the Path.

 

That's my thought, anyhow.

 

:shrug:

 

EDIT: Your PS fits with my thoughts, I think. Human, heaven & earth are viewed as three separate entities but they are brought into harmony by following the Tao (or the principles of Tao). As this harmony emerges, so do various positive attributes. These attributes are not achievements to be proud of any more than a rainbow is something for a drop of water to be proud of, but instead simply "are" and should be used with humility & wisdom.

Edited June 8, 2012 by A Seeker

[ChiDragon]

Ohhh...

Sorry, I did not read the Chapter before I make my last comment.

 

1. Since those who gained unity:

2. Heaven gained unity became clear;

3. Earth gained unity became peaceful;

4. God gained unity became miraculous;

5. Valley gained unity became full;

6. All things gained unity became alive;

7. Rulers gained unity made world peace.

 

In this chapter:

The 'unity' is Tao itself.

 

If I rephrase these lines, then it would read as:

1. Since those who gained Tao:

2. Heaven gained Tao became clear;

3. Earth gained Tao became peaceful;

4. God gained Tao became miraculous;

5. Valley gained Tao became full;

6. All things gained Tao became alive;

7. Rulers gained Tao made world peace.

Edited June 8, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

I like that!

[Marblehead]

Humility is the essence -- humility about these positive attributes with which one is naturally imbued as one learns to live as part of the whole. Finding Oneness isn't the point, the point is being humble about pre-existing attributes uncovered merely by walking the Path.

Yep. I sometimes translate the Three Treasures as: Compassion, Conservativism, and Humility.

[GOOWDAY]

39

 

昔之得一者

 

天得一以清 地得一以宁 神得一以霝 浴得一以盈 侯王得一以为天下正

 

其至之也

 

谓天毋已清将恐裂 谓地毋已宁将恐发 谓神毋已灵将恐歇 谓浴毋已盈将恐竭 谓侯王毋已贵以高将恐蹶

 

故必 贵而以贱为本 必高矣而以下为基

 

夫是以侯王自谓孤 寡 不谷

此其贱之为本欤 非也

 

故致数与 无与

 

是故 不欲禄禄若玉 硌硌若石

 

 

 

 

Those attained the One in the pass,

 

The heaven attained the One because of became clear;

The earth attained the One because of became stable;

The gods attained the One because of brought the happiness;

The valley attaining the One because of became full;

The kings attained the One because of their ruled of the kingdom;

 

I would say ,Its logical is,

 

When the heaven was no longer clear, I'm afraid it will be shatter;

When the earth was no longer stable, I'm afraid it will be abandoned;

When the gods were no longer brought the happiness,I'm afraid they will be forgotten;

When the valley was no longer full, I'm afraid it would be dry up;

If the kings was no longer means of its noble with high, They would, I'm afraid, fall.

 

And cause of its necessary, The noble has to take the humble as its root, The high has to take the low for its foundation.

 

So the kings call themselves "The Orphan," "The Widower," and "The One Without Grain."

 

...........................................

 

 

My translation

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2012 by GOOWDAY

[Marblehead]

Pretty good. Work on that last line - it needs to sound more profound.

[GOOWDAY]

This chapter is about how the king be the king.It not easy to get a good translation,Not just because some words were missing in the 帛书甲乙。

 

 

...........

 

39(

 

昔之得一者

 

天得一以清 地得一以宁 神得一以霝 浴得一以盈 侯王得一以为天下正

 

其至之也

 

谓天毋已清将恐裂 谓地毋已宁将恐废 谓神毋已灵将恐歇 谓浴毋已盈将恐竭 谓侯王毋已贵以高将恐蹶

 

故必 贵而以贱为本 必高矣而以下为基

 

夫是以侯王自谓孤 寡 不谷

此其贱之为本欤 非也

 

故致数与无与

 

是故不欲禄禄若玉 硌硌若石

 

......

 

Those attained the One in the pass,

 

The heaven attained the One with clarlity;

The earth attained the One with peace;

The gods attained the One with happiness;

The valley attained the One with full;

The king attained the One with the obedient of people;

 

Its logic is,

 

When the heaven was no longer clear, I'm afraid it will be shatter;

When the earth wasn't in peace any more, I'm afraid it will be abandoned;

When the gods were no longer brought the happiness,I'm afraid they will be forgotten;

When the valley was no longer full, I'm afraid it would be dry up;

If the king was no longer means of its noble with high, He would, I'm afraid, fall.

 

And cause of its necessary, The noble has to take the humble as its root, The high has to take the low for its foundation.

 

So the kings call themselves "loner," " Single," and "Not-Grain."

Is this taking the humble as root? Not.

Because this will lead to be incomparable.

 

 

Because, Don't want them "ding ding" like jude, And " bam bam" like rock.

 

.......

Edited June 16, 2012 by GOOWDAY

[Marblehead]

This chapter is about how the king be the king.It not easy to get a good translation,Not just because some words were missing in the 帛书甲乙。

Yes, I know. You don't have to do any more work just for me. Hehehe.

 

See if you can find some way for the last line to read something like:

 

Therefore the king does not jingle like jade but rather rumbles like the rock.

 

Have fun.

[GOOWDAY]

Good advise.

 

Thanks.

[manitou]

to see unity in multiplicity is one way to the understanding of creativity.

unity can never remain static. it is both static and dynamic at the same once.

 

 

As I read this, my thoughts turned to quantum physics. The essence of matter is both a particle and a wave. A particle takes up space. A wave indicates motion, even if it's a wave of probability, but motion just the same; this brings Time into the equation. It appears that the static and the dynamic are built into the building blocks of matter from the get-go. Time and space interlocked together.

[Brian]

As I read this, my thoughts turned to quantum physics. The essence of matter is both a particle and a wave. A particle takes up space. A wave indicates motion, even if it's a wave of probability, but motion just the same; this brings Time into the equation. It appears that the static and the dynamic are built into the building blocks of matter from the get-go. Time and space interlocked together.

 

Where did I leave my physicist's seal of approval???

 

[Marblehead]

Where did I leave my physicist's seal of approval???

 

Well, I had to give here a point too.

[manitou]

All points given will be cheerfully accepted and gleefully squandered.

[Stosh]

I thought that in gaining Tao-peace -unity

each of the subjects addressed were physical

analogy, it is not the only chapter that this fits well for.

 

Gaining the Tao...

The sight became clear

the body frame became stable

the lungs became strong

the bowels moved well

the reproductive organs became fertile

the mind-brain became clear

 

as they were designed to be

 

Stosh

[GOOWDAY]

There were a lot of political wisdoms behind in the Dao-De-jing,Especially in De-jing.In carpter 39,A story was told in peaceful and megical way.

 

When the heaven was no longer clear,The earth was no longer in peace ,The gods couldn't brought the happiness any more,And the valleys were all dry up.

By all appearance a kingdom was in very bad situation ,People didn't trust the king any more,They really need a new one to help them to get out of this immediately.

 

The question is, Which one can fit the need?

[Marblehead]

The question is, Which one can fit the need?

What a question!!!

 

I think that in this case we have a top-down situation. Follow the path of Tao and everything will be as it should be. (But not necessarily according to our expectations.)

[zerostao]

Great post Zerostao! The only disagreement I had was with this part:

 

 

I don't think the 2 are mutually opposed. Just like the taiji symbol I think one can give birth to the other in a spiral of ascending growth.

 

point taken, The Observer.

 

the Tao being the origin/source is beyond what our language can explain and beyond what our minds can comprehend.

Tao is unobjective. it is within and also beyond space time.(which puts it beyond quantum physics as well)

using our language to try and explain Tao easily leads to wrong conclusions.

being beyond the limitations of time and dimension, imo, puts it beyond logical conscious thinking or any man made scientific reasoning.

Tao is the universal truth and it is everywhere.

your "spiral of ascending growth" comes from cultivation and experience. we all see what we see depending on our own current experience and understanding. intellectualizing using man made rules is limiting.

when i said intuitive , maybe we can look at it as using our heart and spirit to feel and experience the essence.