[TTC Study] Chapter 39 of the Tao Teh Ching

[The Observer]

point taken, The Observer.

 

your "spiral of ascending growth" comes from cultivation and experience.

 

You know what...I agree w/ you. Same ideas, different words!

 

I guess I just felt like people want to make the leap straight to intuitive without doing the necessary work (not directed at you Zero, just speaking in general).

[GOOWDAY]

故致数与,无与.

 

数与:looking for the same connection. 无与: no connection, no the same,incomparable. 无与伦比：totally incomparable.

 

Mostly in the bad time,A new king means a new life and a new hope to most people, Or the different king will bring the hope.

Edited June 23, 2012 by GOOWDAY

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I see that Goowday has come to a similar conclusion with this chapter, but it seems that the beginning lines are actually showing HOW these things attained oneness. All the translators seemed to just follow each other in translating yi 以 as "and," or "and thus" (ex. Heaven attained oneness and clarity) however, "and" is almost never given a separate word - the two things are just placed next to each other to show they are both there, or zhi is put between them to show that one is an adjective.

 

Also, to translate as Lin Yutang has: "Through possession of the One, the Heaven was clarified, Through possession of the One, The Earth was stabilized" yi would have to appear at the beginning of the sentence rather than just preceding the final word of the sentences.

 

With all this in mind, it really seems like yi 以 could only mean "because of X... because of Y...", and so this chapter is showing HOW oneness is/was attained.

 

 

my translation:

 

昔之得一者

In the days when the One was attained

天得一以清

Heaven attained the One by clarity
地得一以寧

Earth attained the One by contentment (寧 serenity of “heart at home with food on table”)
神得一以靈

Spirits attained the One by divine influence
谷得一以盈

The valley attained the One by fullness

 

As usual, we may learn from natures example.

 

 

edit: more discussion in translation section.. seems that it's a matter of habitual reading of yi that gives it the appearance that other translators have worked with.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Acceptable translation, IMO. Thanks for sharing.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks Marblehead. After some discussion in translation section, I think the other translators were right to translate it as they did, though I still think there may have been a clever usage of yi here to show the reverse process as applicable in practical terms. After all, many read the DDJ like a painting which can teach both by instruction and inspiration.. in this case maybe there is this element to give such a reflexion? Either way, sounds true to me

[Marblehead]

Yeah, your and Henricks' translation reflect the concept of cause and effect much better than some translations I have read. And there is a natural flow from that (action) to this (indirect result).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

link to the translation discussion which I think has many interesting points to consider.. didn't want to re-post them here, though maybe that would be appropriate...

 

edit: whoops, forgot the link:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30884-yi-in-ddj39/

Edited August 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

... didn't want to re-post them here, though maybe that would be appropriate...

My opinion is that I think it would be appropriate. (I talk with you here but I don't go there. I don't want to spread myself too thin. Hehehe.)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Well, I'll bring my own points over here at least then:

 

HE:

I agree with (ChiDragon) that One = Dao here

 

MH:

we should be careful here though. Remember, Tao gave birth to One.

 

Edit to add: Yes, I have also, in the past, equated the two as equal. But I think this might be an error.

 

HE:

Good point, MH!

 

Wuji is most likely "the One" that Dao gave birth to (ch. 42), so we might say this chapter is talking about when everything was non-dualized as in Wuji; however,

 

we can see that "back in the days" which is being spoken of in chapter 39 is also a time after Wuji had already become Taiji, and the myriad things had appeared from Taiji. Seems that the suggestion is that all had maintained (得 obtained) a state of Wuji and thus further developed in a way which Zen Buddhists (influenced by their Taoist roots, imo) have so well explained as "realizing one's nature."

 

To quote Albert Low, "Everything is pressing out toward being itself to the fullest. Everything seeks to express itself."

 

So

the self-realization and self-manifestation of Heaven is to become clear;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of Earth is to be tranquil;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of the valley is to be full;

the self-realization and self-manifestation spirits is to be effective;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of the myraid things is be thriving;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of ruler is to be pure and innocence (chaste)

 

Thus, by holding to the state of Wuji, this self-realization is manifest.

 

note: the above is not meant as a translation

 

 

MH:

... I prefer "self-actualization"

 

HE:

[maybe]..

 

 

to pick up there:

 

"the true expresssion of" could also be a good way to help illustrate "self-realization and self-manifestation" which is essentially related to "zi-ran," imo.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Another point to carry over here:

 

Chi Dragon said:

Yes, the Unity is not the One. It was completely isolated in this case. The deductive reasoning must apply here.


Edited to add:
You must have noticed that the "wu" has multimeaning throughout the TTC, in the similar manner, used by Lao Tze.

 

my comment:

 

 

This was the sort of "intuitive" impression I had at first as well, though I try to avoid underestimating the depth of meanings in the Dao De Jing.

 

There is a difference between attaining Dao and attaining Wuji, however, attaining/returning to Wuji and returning to Dao are almost the same thing: Dao might be called the harmonious balance on which random chaos takes place (like the chord changes in an improvised jazz song, you can play outside the chords a bit to create tension, but too much and you won't be jamming much longer as it will sound terrible). Wuji is the unity of yin and yang into One (like a jazz "vamp" where the band sits on the root chord for an indeterminate time until starting the chord sequence again, though the vamp might actually be more than 1 chord, the parallel still applies).

 

Returning to Wuji puts one in a position to harmoniously enter the changes of Dao again.

 

So saying "the One" could be interpreted as either/or/both/and Dao/Wuji for practicable purposes, it would seem.

[ChiDragon]

I don't see how wuji(for practicable purposes) is related or introduced to the interpretation of the TTC. I have no further comments to continue with the subject matter. Unless, there is more inductive reasoning which I can follow to go any further.

Edited August 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I believe, in Chapter 42,
道生一
一生二

Tao engenders One
One engenders Two

The "One" means Taiji
The two are the yin and the yang.

According to the Yijing(易經),
無極生太極
太極生兩儀

Wuji engenders Taiji
Tiaji engenders yin-yang(兩儀)


Edited to add:
That which makes Tao becomes Wuji, isn't it.....???
However, "Tao", in Chapter 42, means "wuji".
The "Unity/One", in Chapter 39, means "Tao".

We have no choice, Lao Tze always made it so confusing in his classical terms. The pleasure was left up to the readers to make the distinction to differentiate them. The readers must have a clear mind, in order, to make lucid interpretation of the TTC. Hence, it is advisable to use as less words as possible to avoid ambiguity.

Edited August 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

to pick up there:

 

"the true expresssion of" could also be a good way to help illustrate "self-realization and self-manifestation" which is essentially related to "zi-ran," imo.

Why did I feel that we would be going there? To "zi-ran" that is. (Maybe because it is this that these lines are speaking of?)

[Marblehead]

We have no choice, Lao Tze always made it so confusing in his classical terms. The pleasure was left up to the readers to make the distinction to differentiate them. The readers must have a clear mind, in order, to make lucid interpretation of the TTC. Hence, it is advisable to use as less words as possible to avoid ambiguity.

Yeah, you guys have an advantage on me in that you learned to read the Chinese characters and I have not. I must rely on how others translate and then apply my reasoning to what is presented.

 

I think that most of us have used the concept/term zi-ran (TzuJan) far too little while discussing Taoist Philosophy. Self-becoming, naturally and spontaneously, is a powerful concept. That's what Tao did when she did her Big Bang thing.

[ChiDragon]

I must rely on how others translate and then apply my reasoning to what is presented.

 

I think you did a great job and having advantage over others based on your objectiveness and comprehension. Most of all, it was your opened-mind-ness and encompasses others ideas.

Edited August 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Thanks.

 

Just to add: Many people don't consider me open-minded because of my concentration on philosophy so it is nice that you mentioned it.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Marblehead

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I believe, in Chapter 42,

道生一

一生二

 

Tao engenders One

One engenders Two

 

The "One" means Taiji

The two are the yin and the yang.

 

According to the Yijing(易經),

無極生太極

太極生兩儀

 

Wuji engenders Taiji

Tiaji engenders yin-yang(兩儀)

 

 

Edited to add:

That which makes Tao becomes Wuji, isn't it.....???

However, "Tao", in Chapter 42, means "wuji".

The "Unity/One", in Chapter 39, means "Tao".

 

We have no choice, Lao Tze always made it so confusing in his classical terms. The pleasure was left up to the readers to make the distinction to differentiate them. The readers must have a clear mind, in order, to make lucid interpretation of the TTC. Hence, it is advisable to use as less words as possible to avoid ambiguity.

 

I don't see how wuji(for practicable purposes) is related or introduced to the interpretation of the TTC. I have no further comments to continue with the subject matter. Unless, there is more inductive reasoning which I can follow to go any further.

 

However, if Dao gave birth to One, can One be Dao? Or is Wuji also Dao, since Dao is self-established?

 

道生一

Dao gave birth to One (Dao/Wuji)

一生二

One gave birth to Two (yin and yang)

二生三

Two gave birth to Three (Taiji dynamism)

三生萬物

Three gave birth to the innumerable things

 

It's true that Wuji is not mentioned by name in the Dao De Jing. I think various schools have differing opinions on what is correct on this matter, so we'll just have to go with what works for us and not try to put too many labels on the experiences I guess.

[ChiDragon]

However, if Dao gave birth to One, can One be Dao? Or is Wuji also Dao, since Dao is self-established?

 

道生一

Dao gave birth to One (Dao/Wuji)

 

I grant you Tao can be an numerous of thing. However, we must treat each individual case differently by avoiding mixing things up to scramble the meanings.

 

Again, you have to be careful what do you mean by that. Are you referring Dao/Wuji as "One"....??? If you did, based on my understanding, Dao(brown) is Wuji(無極) and One is Taiji(太極) in this particular phrase which contradicts the whole logic of the phrase.

 

We are dealing with two things here, Tao and One. By logic, one has to be other but not both. The self-established idea does not apply here. It may be applies in general in the overall interpretation, yes. In this discussion is a no.

 

I had made that very clear in the above post. Please try to understand my point and follow my interpretation before inventing something else....!!! Otherwise, we are going circles.

 

Edited August 5, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

But the innumerable things came from Taiji. Also Heaven and Earth are mainfestations of the dynamism in Taiji. They are essentially the same things but we must return to unity to observe this.

[dawei]

BTW: I commented in your other thread on ch. 39 translation.

 

This is much more complicated than you realize and if one only looks at the Lao Zi they will only see a part of the picture.

 

First off, in the Mawangdui Yijing, it is NOT Tai Ji which generates the two modes (yin-yang) but DA HENG (大恆). Later authors used DA JI and then another change to TAI JI occurred. To date, almost everyone uses the later changes instead of looking at the original.

 

Second: Interchangeability is rampant in regards to this:

Tai Yi (太一), Da Yi (大一) , Heng Yi ( 恒一), Da Heng (大恒), da ji (大極), Tai Ji (太極)

 

This gets more confusing because the Tai Yi Sheng Shui found in the Guodian Bundle "C", and represents one of the oldest cosmologies, states: 大一生水 - The Great One established Water.

 

Sarah Allen pointed out that "the gloss in the Shuowen 說文 for yi 一 is clearly based upon a cosmogony similar to that found in the Da Yi sheng shui, except that, in the Shuowen, dao plays the role of water. The gloss reads: “The beginning; the Great Ultimate (da ji 大極). The Way (dao) was established by One (yi). It created and separated into sky and earth,transformed and became the myriad living things.”

 

So if someone says that ONE is TaiJi that may be true on the manifest/physical realm but ONE appears to be more anciently understood as something which establishes Dao (the great mechanism by which it all unfolds).

 

Third: Wuji is in the DDJ, Chapter 28. In most ancient texts (DDJ, Zhuangzi, Huainanzi, and Liezi), Wuji means limitless or probably the non-polar/non-dual stage.

 

However, if Dao gave birth to One, can One be Dao? Or is Wuji also Dao, since Dao is self-established?

 

道生一

Dao gave birth to One (Dao/Wuji)
一生二

One gave birth to Two (yin and yang)
二生三

Two gave birth to Three (Taiji dynamism)
三生萬物

Three gave birth to the innumerable things

 

It's true that Wuji is not mentioned by name in the Dao De Jing. I think various schools have differing opinions on what is correct on this matter, so we'll just have to go with what works for us and not try to put too many labels on the experiences I guess.

 

In this text, if we keep the context of ONE, TWO, THREE, it is most likely the manifest world (and not the great void or emptiness stages); Here, I might be willing to take ONE to be TaiJi as that is part of the physical movement which is the start of the unfolding, but most of the ancient cosmologies simply refer to it as [manifest] Qi.

 

IMO, one needs to look at the whole body of ancient texts to help sort this out.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

lol, yes, somehow I missed my own thread on chapter 28, though I was thinking of this chapter to find reference to Wuji.. I couldn't remember which chapter it was.. and failed in my TTB duty to search for it...

 

 

One could say that chapter 28 very much talks about "returning to the One" which is then affiliated with Wuji, and The Valley, ensuring "De will always be full (like the valley, ch. 39)."

 

So, returning to Wuji ensures the valley will be full (in ch. 28),

為天下谷，

Being preferential to the valley under heaven

常德乃足，

De will then always be full

 

 

so "the One" which the valley obtains/embraces to become full in ch. 39, is also Wuji.

 

Thanks for bringing up The Great One established Water too. Being that this book seems to be the source of much of the cosmology in the DDJ, it's rather indispensable in this discussion.

 

 

Thanks for your help Dawei!

 

 

Also Chi Dragon and Marblehead! You guys ask (some of) the best questions!!

[Marblehead]

Sarah Allen pointed out that "the gloss in the Shuowen 說文 for yi 一 is clearly based upon a cosmogony similar to that found in the Da Yi sheng shui, except that, in the Shuowen, dao plays the role of water. The gloss reads: “The beginning; the Great Ultimate (da ji 大極). The Way (dao) was established by One (yi). It created and separated into sky and earth,transformed and became the myriad living things.”

I just needed to mention that I so much don't like this. Hehehe. Y'all know me. I have to say something.

[Marblehead]

I was just sitting here thinking:

 

Lao Tzu view:

Scientific View:

 

Tao gave birth to One

The Big Bang gave birth to Hydrogen

 

One gave birth to two

Hydrogen gave birth to Gravity

 

Two gave birth to three

Gravity and Hydrogen gave birth to Helium

 

Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand things

Hydrogen, Helium, and Gravity caused the creation of stars which exploded and caused the creation of the other elements and all physical properties of the universe

 

 

Hehehe. I somehow lost my Chi in this exercise. Oh well.

[zerostao]

interesting perspective mh

[dawei]

I just needed to mention that I so much don't like this. Hehehe. Y'all know me. I have to say something.

 

That's good... pain means something meaningful... You ought to really dig down and understand her point... but I sense you don't really care to understand it... but enjoy pointing out as such.

 

In any case, I could probably send you a link to the paper... but don't want to waste either of our time.