[TTC Study] Chapter 39 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

... but I sense you don't really care to understand it... but enjoy pointing out as such.

Great perception!

 

In any case, I could probably send you a link to the paper... but don't want to waste either of our time.

Excellent consideration.

[Taoist Texts]

道德經39

 

《道德經》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之，天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。

《老子河上公章句·法本》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清，地得一以寧，神得一以靈，谷得一以盈，萬物得一以生，侯王得一以為天下貞。其致之。天無以清將恐裂，地無以寧將恐發，神無以靈將恐歇，谷無以盈將恐竭，萬物無以生將恐滅，侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。故貴以賤為本，高以下為基是以侯王自謂孤、寡、不轂。此非以賤為本邪？非乎！故致數輿無輿，不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。

《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: 昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得□以寧；神得一以霝；浴得一以盈；侯□□□而以為正。其致之也，胃天毌已清將恐□，胃地毌□□將恐□，胃神毌已霝將恐歇，胃浴毌已盈將恐渴，胃侯王毌已貴□□□□□。故必貴而以賤為本，必高矣而以下為基。夫是以侯王自胃□孤寡不穀，此其賤□□與？非□？故致數與無與。是故不欲□□若玉，硌硌□□。

《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 昔得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以霝；浴得一盈；侯王得一以為天下正。其至也，胃天毌已，清將恐蓮；地毌已寧，將恐發；神毌□□□恐歇；谷毌已□，將渴侯王毌已貴以高將恐蹶。故必貴以賤為本，必高矣而以下為基。夫是以侯王自胃孤、寡、不穀。此其賤之本與？非也。故至數輿無輿。是故不欲祿﹦若玉硌﹦若石。

[Marblehead]

Oh!, that's very helpful. Thank you!

 

 

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

[Taoist Texts]

...all in due course..

 

 

 

《道德經》: 39

 

昔之得一者：天得一以清；地得一以寧；神得一以靈；谷得一以盈；萬物得一以生；侯王得一以為天下貞。

From containing the One Heaven gets its purity; Earth – its stability; spirits – their numinosity; streams – their fullness; all beings – their lives, the princes and kings – are valued 貴in the Under Heaven.

其致之，but when (the One) leaves those

天無以清，將恐裂；地無以寧，將恐發；神無以靈，將恐歇；谷無以盈，將恐竭；萬物無以生，將恐滅；侯王無以貴高將恐蹶。

The Heaven would not be pure and would rend; the Earth would not be stable and would split; the spirits will not be numinous and would expire; the streams will not be full and would dry out; all beings would not live and would die out; the princes and kings would not be noble and high and would fall.

故貴以賤為本，高以下為基。

But it is known that the valuable is based on the cheap, the high stands on the low.

是以侯王自稱孤、寡、不穀。此非以賤為本耶？非乎？

Therefore (to attract the One) the princes and kings belittle themselves by such self-appellations as ‘I the lonely’, ‘I the orphan’, ‘I the grain-less’. Is this not ‘the cheap as the foundation?

故致數譽無譽。不欲琭琭如玉，珞珞如石。

Therefore the highest fame is no fame. Do not be bright like jade, be like un-hewn stone. (to attract the One).

[Marblehead]

 

...all in due course..

 

 

 

Hehehe. Thanks.

 

[Marblehead]

Nice translation.

 

Do not be bright like jade, be like un-hewn stone. (to attract the One).

I still like "Don't dazzle like jade but rumble like the rocks."

 

(In my mind this is translated to "Don't try to impress people, just do what needs be done.")

[flowing hands]

"All things came from the one"

"All these things are in wholeness with the Dao"

 

What makes all things what they are is the One, the Dao, the spirit and Qi.

 

The Dao appears almost non existent, but it is truly great and humble. The mistake mankind makes is to abuse Dao and become arrogant. This will lead to disaster.

Therefore those that follow Dao think that they don't know, seek only to be at one with Dao, avoid perusing a path of wealth and riches and making noises that are superficial. In doing so only those with eyes of Dao will recognize their value.

[Marblehead]

I like the post but must admit that I am still a work in progress.

[dust]

I won't pretend that I'm not biased here. I have an interest in discrediting this chapter. It's one of the few where I know I'm not even trying to be objective. So..

 

This is a late addition chapter.

 

-- 宁，灵，恐，歇，竭，灭，蹶，琭，珞 -- none of these appear in other chapters

-- it rhymes

-- it's the only chapter that (possibly) mentions gods as having any value

-- doesn't appear in the GD

-- it's oddly clear and easy to translate.

 

All of these things mark it out as not an original Laozi creation.

 

[Taoist Texts]

-- it's oddly clear and easy to translate.

which has not prevented the expert translators to mess it up something fierce

 

 

also

 

Mawangdui Silk Texts, in a tomb dating from 168 BC.^[2] They included two nearly complete copies of the text, referred to as Text A (甲) and Text B (乙), both of which reverse the traditional ordering and put the Te Ching section before the Tao Ching, which is why the Henricks translation of them is named "Te-Tao Ching". Based on calligraphic styles and imperial naming taboo avoidances, scholars believe that Text A can be dated to about the first decade and Text B to about the third decade of the 2nd century BC.^[6]

In 1993, the oldest known version of the text, written on bamboo tablets, was found in a tomb near the town of Guodian (郭店) in Jingmen, Hubei, and dated prior to 300 BC

 

 

what difference a 100 years make? would superstition flourished polluting the pristine materializm of GD?

Edited December 7, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

True that Chapter 39 is not in the Guodian but then, if we accept Henricks' suggestions that the Guodian are excerpts of a more complete text used by the teacher, it is understandable that the chapter would not be there as it really doesn't say anything about ruling a country.

 

Also, where Henricks uses the word "God" in his Mawangdui translation Red Pine uses the word "spirit". "Spirit" is consistent with its appearance in other chapters.

[dust]

"Spirit" is consistent with its appearance in other chapters.

 

Only in the way that certain translators translate the text

 

 

 

which has not prevented the expert translators to mess it up something fierce

 

You know normally I'd agree, but is your translation radically different from the others this time?

 

 

 

what difference a 100 years make? would superstition flourished polluting the pristine materializm of GD?

 

Perhaps. But I won't make that the crux of my argument, cos there's no way to know for sure what happened, is there..?

 

Actually, the Taiyishengshui being a part of the GD slips (and I haven't studied any of the non-老子 slips past this yet, but), it would seem that even the Guodian package was complete with stuff about spirits (神明)

 

Knowing this, we know that whoever the slips were intended for or written by did not have a problem with the spirit-oriented aspect of Taoism at the time; so what reason would he have had for removing a chapter like 39?

 

To me, this shows that at the very least the Laozi was open to selection and reshuffling, and that the only chapters we can be pretty certain were considered an "official" part of the Laozi were the ones in the 甲乙丙

[Taoist Texts]

and that the only chapters we can be pretty certain were considered an "official" part of the Laozi were the ones in the 甲乙丙

conceding that is the Dao a god or God?

[Marblehead]

Only in the way that certain translators translate the text

Well, let's not be picky. Hehehe. It works with all my iterations.

[Marblehead]

conceding that is the Dao a god or God?

Doing so is a "No, No", in my opinion.

[dust]

conceding that is the Dao a god or God?

 

Conceding what now?

 

If one were to consider the GD chapters as the only necessarily 'true' ones at that time, there would be absolutely no concession of God or gods..

[dust]

Well, let's not be picky. Hehehe. It works with all my iterations.

 

Sorry to be obtuse, but which ones?

[Marblehead]

Sorry to be obtuse, but which ones?

All of them. If I see the word "God" it is always translated in my mind as "spirit".

 

Of course, I don't hold to the concept of "spirits" either but that's beside the point. Many people do and that is why we see the word-concept.

[Taoist Texts]

Conceding what now?

 

If one were to consider the GD chapters as the only necessarily 'true' ones at that time

 

yes conceding that

there would be absolutely no concession of God or gods..

what about Dao ? Is Dao a God? If not, what is a God?

[Taoist Texts]

Doing so is a "No, No", in my opinion.

All right. What or who is God?

[dawei]

I won't pretend that I'm not biased here. I have an interest in discrediting this chapter. It's one of the few where I know I'm not even trying to be objective. So..

 

This is a late addition chapter.

 

-- 宁，灵，恐，歇，竭，灭，蹶，琭，珞 -- none of these appear in other chapters

-- it rhymes

-- it's the only chapter that (possibly) mentions gods as having any value

-- doesn't appear in the GD

-- it's oddly clear and easy to translate.

 

All of these things mark it out as not an original Laozi creation.

 

 

Wagner in his A Chinese Reading of the Daodejing says, it is an open IPS with staircase structure... similar to Ch. 38. Stuff happens.

 

That it's oddly clear and easy to translate and not in the GD would lead us to remove many chapters... maybe including the much celebrated Chapter 1

 

But open honesty deserves its say...

[dawei]

True that Chapter 39 is not in the Guodian but then, if we accept Henricks' suggestions that the Guodian are excerpts of a more complete text used by the teacher, it is understandable that the chapter would not be there as it really doesn't say anything about ruling a country.

 

Also, where Henricks uses the word "God" in his Mawangdui translation Red Pine uses the word "spirit". "Spirit" is consistent with its appearance in other chapters.

 

Worth a repeat

[dust]

All right. What or who is God?

 

Ah. The answer lies in the question: what or who is God? People generally see gods as 'who', rather than 'what'

 

As MH has stated many times, Dao isn't personifiable.

 

God is a person. A god is a person. Not a human, but a person -- a mask, a character, a being with feelings.

 

In all mythologies, gods take the form of people or animals (or both). In the monotheistic religions, God is a big man in the sky, who also happens to be omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent/omniomni...

 

This, for me, is where all religions fall apart. They place faith in a human-shaped King of All; someone to tell them what to do because they're too afraid to figure it out for themselves. And all commands from these Kings were ultimately created by humans.

 

In the Laozi and Zhuangzi and many other philosophical works, West and East, people have attempted to find ways to figure out how one can live without being commanded by some imaginary King Ghost; in many cases, how one can be contented by reconciling one's individual nature with the greater nature of the universe.

 

Dao is this greater nature of the universe. It's everything. We're not truly separate from it; in some ways, it is like God, but only if everyone and everything is God. And if that's the case, there is no God, because a god needs something to be god of.

 

.......................................

 

As far as the use of 神

 

6: so called 'valley spirit' is simply Dao

29: the word shen is used but generally taken as an adjective (e.g. sacred)

39: right here

60: as we covered recently, it does talk of spirits but quite possibly as a tool for governance

 

I don't see any consistency...

 

edit: I think this is what you guys mean about the consistent iteration of 'spirit' but if not, I apologise

Edited December 7, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

Wagner in his A Chinese Reading of the Daodejing says, it is an open IPS with staircase structure... similar to Ch. 38. Stuff happens.

 

That it's oddly clear and easy to translate and not in the GD would lead us to remove many chapters... maybe including the much celebrated Chapter 1

 

Oh, I'm not such a huge fan of ch.1.

I don't discount the possibility that it's basically nonsense, designed to be interpretable by anyone to mean anything... hence its popularity

 

 

 

But open honesty deserves its say...

 

Thank you. I am trying to be honest.

[Taoist Texts]

Wagner in his A Chinese Reading of the Daodejing says, it is an open IPS with staircase structure...

whats dat?