[TTC Study] Chapter 39 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

All right. What or who is God?

I will suggest that this is a silly question to be asking of an Atheist.

[dawei]

whats dat?

 

was just meant to say that Wagner finds the structure of the chapter not inconsistent with other chapters... He developed this entire analysis on the structure of each chapter to see what patterns emerge. Interesting reading... but his focus is on the Wang Bi version.

[dawei]

As far as the use of 神

 

6: so called 'valley spirit' is simply Dao

29: the word shen is used but generally taken as an adjective (e.g. sacred)

39: right here

60: as we covered recently, it does talk of spirits but quite possibly as a tool for governance

 

I don't see any consistency...

 

edit: I think this is what you guys mean about the consistent iteration of 'spirit' but if not, I apologise

 

That might be an interesting discussion with the only consistent outcome is consistent disagreements

[dust]

was just meant to say that Wagner finds the structure of the chapter not inconsistent with other chapters... He developed this entire analysis on the structure of each chapter to see what patterns emerge. Interesting reading... but his focus is on the Wang Bi version.

 

Yes..I didn't want to go too far with a structural analysis because honestly I don't understand that kind of stuff. I do get the sense or feeling that 39 is different from many other chapters though -- and especially from those in the GD

[Taoist Texts]

I will suggest that this is a silly question to be asking of an Atheist.

[ChiDragon]

神得一以靈

Deity has gained One will be efficacious.

 

The contextual meaning of 靈, in the phrase, is most difficult to comprehend or translate.

 

Annotation:

靈, here, means efficacious.

神: deity; god

一: One; it is Tao

 

Deity has supernatural power. However, the power is useless without the assistance of Tao(One). The super power will become effective as soon it was blessed by Tao. So, to speak.

 

This also has an indication that Tao is above all which corresponds to:

吾不知誰之子，

象帝之先

I don't know who's son it is, but

it seems to be existed before god.

Edited December 7, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

神得一以靈

Deity has gained One will be efficacious.

 

The contextual meaning of 靈, in the phrase, is most difficult to comprehend or translate.

 

Annotation:

靈, here, means efficacious.

神: deity; god

一: One; it is Tao

 

Deity has supernatural power. However, the power is useless without the assistance of Tao(One). The super power will become effective as soon it was blessed by Tao. So, to speak.

 

This also has an indication that Tao is above all which corresponds to:

吾不知誰之子，

象帝之先

I don't know who's son it is, but

it seems to be existed before god.

Hehehe. I would have expected a post like that from Flowing Hands, but from you? WoW!

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. I would have expected a post like that from Flowing Hands, but from you? WoW!

 

This is not my own idea. It was Lao Zi that wants to emphasize the importance of the existence of Tao. Again, it doesn't mean that Lao Zi was believing all the god stuff. He was only addressing this to the people in their own terms, so, they could understand.

Edited December 7, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

This is not my own idea. It was Lao Zi that wants to emphasize the importance of the existence of Tao. Again, it doesn't mean that Lao Zi was believing all the god stuff. He was only addressing this to the people in their own terms, so, they could understand.

Hehehe. I was only taking the opportunity to mess with you.

 

But yes, I do understand that. Before Taoism there were only the Shamanistic beliefs in China. Lao Tzu needed to speak in terms that others would understand.

[flowing hands]

Hehehe. I was only taking the opportunity to mess with you.

 

But yes, I do understand that. Before Taoism there were only the Shamanistic beliefs in China. Lao Tzu needed to speak in terms that others would understand.

Li Erh spoke the way he did because he had deep understanding; he was part of that culture and he accepted those beliefs.

 

'Imitation is the greatest form of flattery'

[ChiDragon]

However, if Dao gave birth to One, can One be Dao? Or is Wuji also Dao, since Dao is self-established?

 

 

I would like to reiterate about this to make things to fall in place.

Chapter One:

Tao has two names, 無(wu) and 有(you), and both names came from the same source.

 

Chapter 40:

1 天下萬物生於有:

all things came come from 有(you)

 

2. 有生於無:

and 有(you) came from 無(wu)

 

Yi Jing:

無極生太極

Wu Ji engenders Tai Ji

 

Lao ZI borrowed the idea from the Yi Jing by saying that:

有生於無 (有 came from 無)

 

Where

Wu Ji is 無(wu); and Tai Ji is 有(you).

 

Hence:

無極生太極 = 有生於無

Wu Ji engenders Tai Ji = 有(you) came from 無(wu)