can't you see the gods can take away your family, your children, your wealth, your health, even your sexual abilities anytime they want to?

[bodyoflight]

you know..

 

i have always wondered why a rich man like shakayumi would give up his wife and child and his kingdom to seek solitary enlightenment..

 

what was he thinking?.. what did he see?..

 

during the past few weeks, lots of posts have been exchanged..

 

most forummers here seem only interested in getting a good gf/bf, marrying, having kids, getting a job, having a good life partying or whatever..

 

as you know by now.. we are not in charge .. especially not after spring 2010..

 

our wealth, our family, our wives/husbands, our children can be taken away from us anytime..

 

question is .. how many of you are prepared to lose everything at once?..

 

how many of you have trained your mind... your emotions.. trained your human ego to withstand the shock and the pain of losing all your wealth, your family, your children, your houses, your health all together at the same time?

 

do you think the gods would never take away any of your good life?..

 

this is why we must train our selves to live as if we have nothing.. how would we survive if we have nothing..

 

everything has a beginning and an end..

 

it is only when you embrace the end.. then can you have such a glorious beginning..

 

even better... jump out of the loop so that there is no beginning and no end..

 

remember.. we are not in charge.. destroy your attachments to the present civilization..

 

because the present civilization will end pretty soon..

 

Edited May 20, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Vajrahridaya]

Wow! Mad love bro... love that!! Truth, truth!!

[bodyoflight]

do you think you will live forever?

 

do you think your spouse will live forever?

 

why are you guys so interested in starting a family knowing one day the family itself will be destroyed sooner or later?

 

50 years down the road..

 

you and your spouse will die one day..

 

your children will grow up and leave you and start their own families..

 

leaving you with.. where you are now..

 

so why go through the entire cycle just to end up in the beginning?

 

i see no point.. there IS no point..

[bodyoflight]

Wow! Mad love bro... love that!! Truth, truth!!

 

i used to smoke for 5 years..

 

i went to sheer hell just to quit the addictions of nicotine..

 

now i am trying to quit sex which is impossible because everybody is trying to throw the forces of lust at me..

 

but we will see what happens when i move to India..

 

my point is.. if i am going to die tommorrow.. there are going to be two things i will ask the universe for..

 

firstly, i will ask the universe to destroy the animal ego in me.. especially the attachments of greed and lust.. that would be one of the greatest achievement I will ever accomplish in my life..

 

secondly, i will ask the universe to grant me an immortal body of light.. that would be THE greatest achievement for me in my life..

Edited May 20, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Jetsun]

Gods?

[bodyoflight]

Gods?

 

whatever you call them..

 

there are gods behind the gods behind the gods..

 

do the terminologies matter?

[bodyoflight]

you know..

 

i just have another epiphany..

 

Man has been driven to work and to procreate and to gather more and more so that when they lose it all one day, their animal ego will scream blue murder..

 

yet this pain of suffering is the teaching.. the lessons which we are waiting for.. to force us to see the temporal nature of reality...

 

if we don;t lose it all in the end.. we will be mistakenly stuck in the maya .. in the illusion that everything is permanent..

 

yet everything is temporal..

 

a few months ago, a lama told me.. he know what is going on with me.. he said i can either continue to learn the lessons the hard way..

 

or to jump out of the loop...

 

in the end.. i saw myself in different timelines..

 

some of me getting married.. some of me having children.. some of me being successful beyond my wildest dreams..

 

but in the end, i die and that's it..

 

i have failed to achieve anything of value again in this life-time..

 

you know, maybe all the bad things which happen to me during the past 2 years have a hidden blessing beyond anyone's wildest dreams..

 

what's the price of immortality? the price is beyond anything man can pay and yet it is as free as the air itself..

 

the chinese emperors of the past think they can bribe and pay the taoist sages to give the chinese emperors immortality..

 

but the taoist sages.. when faced with such immense gifts of wealth and women.. walked away laughing at the gifts of the mundane world..

 

what's the use of wealth and women to one who has already achieved...

 

immortality?

Edited May 20, 2011 by bodyoflight

[C T]

When a person can begin to see that attachment and aversion is the basis of samsara, and then realize that such are empty of permanence, just as the very things (material or otherwise) that are grasped at or shunned are, then one will begin to understand that there is really no need to subject oneself to such kinds of 'epiphany'. Dwelling on these thoughts can be helpful, when, for example, one is under some sort of instruction or following a specific sadhana (like Ngondro for example), but otherwise, such thinking can simply and unknowingly lead to more fermentations. Moreover, the contemplations on impermanence and death are meant to be supported by contemplations on the urgency to turn towards refuge, whereby the accompanying visualizations are to be practiced in order for the practice to bear fruit. As with all contemplations, in line with the Three Jewels, it is better to do them within the mental space of "Good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end" sort of way. Otherwise it is considered to lack merit.

 

I do not see the skillfulness in encouraging readers to simply adopt a 'give it all up' attitude when not everyone here is even ready to give up their harmless attachment to coffee (as an example only... i love coffee and am deeply attached to it!) let alone more significant sacrifices? Sometimes contemplations should just remain contemplations, and not to be taken literally. All that is required is a mental preparedness - an ongoing awareness that life is impermanent, and we really cannot know when one's life can suddenly be extinguished without any warning. Cultivating in this way a person can become more alive, more present and also more motivated to sustain a worthy spiritual path that leads to freedom from life and death.

Edited May 20, 2011 by CowTao

[Vajrahridaya]

True CowTao, but he reminds me of me some 17 years ago when I gave it all up for intense retreat Sadhana that lasted 5 years, which lead me to very powerful inner experiences that changed my life forever! I don't want to discourage this in him. It's a very important phase.

[Marblehead]

The question "Gods?" has already been asked so I will ignore that.

 

I think that neither of the extremes of 'possession' and 'letting go' are an effective position from which to live our life.

 

I think that there should be some harmonious point between the two.

 

Of course, I still like very much the concept of custodialship as opposed to possession from a philosophical point of view.

 

However, it is my belief, when relating with other people, that what is 'mine' is mine and if you try to take it from me you are really going to piss me off.

 

But, I understand that something could happen, say a hurricane, that would destroy everything. That is something I would have no control over and therefore I do not concern myself with such matters.

 

While what I have is only temporary, I am still the custodian of all that is allowed to be in my care. I will do my best to take proper care of it.

 

I see no reason for anyone to have to give up what gives them comfort in order to find enlightenment or whatever it is they are seeking. Afterall, all these 'things' are external to us and what were are seeking is internal. Total different realms of reality.

[C T]

True CowTao, but he reminds me of me some 17 years ago when I gave it all up for intense retreat Sadhana that lasted 5 years, which lead me to very powerful inner experiences that changed my life forever! I don't want to discourage this in him. It's a very important phase.

That's wonderful VJ!

 

It was not my intention to discourage BoL, and i do see why this crucial 'journey' means a lot to him.

 

Personally, i see sacrifices for spiritual ideals as a good thing, for such can generate a lot of positive potential in the individual. But the willingness to let things go, to be prepared mentally for when things fall apart, is different from making drastic decisions and acting upon them, to up everything in other words, and venture forth into the unknown. As a dzogchenpa, i am sure you are aware that all circumstances can be worked upon as sources of transformation. As Pema Chodron kindly urged, "Start where you are"... I think its this that makes the Dzogchen path so unique. Just like the mongoose living among poisonous snakes, and adapting to the environment to such an extent that they become immune to the poison. They could all have moved to Ireland (no snakes at all here) instead!!

[lifeforce]

Bodyoflight.

Why don't you make the title of the thread a bit longer ?

Apart from that, your threads and posts have a bitter undercurrent running through them.

You are dissing folks that have spouses and families, thinking that we couldn't possibly cultivate.

Enlightenment, awakening, realization or whatever you want to call it, is available to anyone. Not just the Himalayan yogi or the forest hermit without worldly concerns.

You are stuck in a western style romanticized fantasy, where you are required to leave the world behind and find a master/guru and live out the rest of your life eating berries and living off fresh air.

Jeez !

[gendao]

as you know by now.. we are not in charge .. especially not after spring 2010..

 

our wealth, our family, our wives/husbands, our children can be taken away from us anytime..

 

question is .. how many of you are prepared to lose everything at once?..

 

remember.. we are not in charge.. destroy your attachments to the present civilization..

Very interesting, I came to this same basic conclusion myself after last year. Our lives are actually orchestrated by our superconscious "Higher Selves" or something. I suspect that we actually have little conscious control at our very limited level of (un)awareness down here. Edited May 20, 2011 by vortex

[thelerner]

Its painful when a child realizes things change and can be taken away. I don't think the solution is to run away from family and pleasurable things. Good things should be cherished and appreciated, all the more so because they are impermanent. Enjoy your family, your friends, health and wealth; learn and grow. Change doesn't have to be bad. The experience of loss is bitter sweet because you connected; and in connection there is level of love and understanding.

 

 

Is being a mushroom growing in the dark, the ultimate? Are ascetics who punish and deny themselves the way? How much of my humanity should I cede away; Friends, taste buds, eyes, or dick? No, let me have pleasure. Within wise constraints they make my life worthwhile. If you lack wisdom and these things cause you pain, by all means back away, re-evaluate, but to give them up because at some unknown time in the future they'll be gone is to lose the spice of life.

 

IMO desire is okay as long as you are contented with what you have. Desires are a wind that can keep us moving on course. When they become too strong its time drop sails and reevaluate where we're headed.

 

 

Ofcourse I write this as someone who is clearly on the householders path. There is a time to eat bitter. But it should be realized even that is a phase. We discipline ourselves to grow stronger. Once we've grown, we can laugh at ourselves and take the time to enjoy life, love and laughter.

[Lucky7Strikes]

secondly, i will ask the universe to grant me an immortal body of light.. that would be THE greatest achievement for me in my life..

 

Throw away ego for Ego eh?

 

Why are you so concerned about "gods" taking your things away? What's so bad about that?

 

And why are you asking the universe for anything for that matter? Instead of training yourself to live with nothing, maybe it's better to realize you never really had anything to lose in the first place?

Edited May 20, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

I agree with Lifeforce and Lerner. BoL is going through the phase most of us go through in romanticizing material renunciation mistaking it for wisdom, and glorifying the suppression of what is natural.

 

But renunciation can be the natural inclination for some, and that is their way. What I find troubling is telling people what is their way and what is not. That we must all throw our attachments to the ground and go into the mountains...

Edited May 20, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[starhawk]

With Yin and Yang, there can be rising and waxing. Thus there is increase and decrease in both.

 

Life cycles can go through similar stages.

 

Once we have attained the harmony of our life cycle with the true source Light of life, therein harmony manifests itself.

 

Then there is increase and decrease again, but there is a higher calling to fulfill.

 

Often it is better to cultivate to a higher level, and then do the worldly things. But it can go the other way around.

 

My 0.02 cents. Good luck with your journey BOL.

 

If you (ever do) come back let us know!

[Vajrahridaya]

As a dzogchenpa, i am sure you are aware that all circumstances can be worked upon as sources of transformation. As Pema Chodron kindly urged, "Start where you are"... I think its this that makes the Dzogchen path so unique. Just like the mongoose living among poisonous snakes, and adapting to the environment to such an extent that they become immune to the poison. They could all have moved to Ireland (no snakes at all here) instead!!

 

Good metaphor!

 

You are of course correct, but there is a process leading to this wisdom and I find a period of renunciation to be crucial to this. Even extreme "monkin' it" cave style renunciation where one just inverts awareness and rewires ones synaptic pathways towards a deeper and subtler plain of consciousness. Of course, this alone does not lead to the place of Buddhas, but it's a good place to start.

[Vajrahridaya]

Look who it mofuckin is! How was your hiatus!

 

How's life?

 

Life is a ball of interesting, majestic, multi-colored cherries!

 

Thanks SJ!

 

Anyways, while not really disagreeing with what bodyoflight is saying: There are those who have/had family's, and were/are highly realized. Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, (I would say is highly realized) has I think 4 or 5 kids. Dudjom Rinpoche reached buddhahood and we know married twice and had 7 kids with the first wife and three with the other (his son from his first marraige died in China, during the Cultural Revolution) Then there's of course the Vimalakirti sutra where he reached buddhahood while still living the lay life with a wife and kids.

 

SO, I'm agreeing with you that it can lead to self discovery, while on the other hand I'm agreeing with CowTao; that there isn't always a need to give everything up, for a life of a hermit.....

 

P.S. Keep in mind that Dudjom Rinpoche and Lama Tharchin Rinpoche both went on spiritual retreats, that could last up to 3 years at a time...

 

That last part was key. Everyone has to have this realization coming from within, by turning within, and the phase of renunciation, which obviously is done by these great masters over and over again throughout their life, is testimony to the importance of periods of external renunciation.

 

My own Dzogchen Rinpoche, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has kids and a wife, but has done many solitary retreats before and after his marriage.

 

He most definitely is an example of a highly realized, engaged with the world type of Lama.

[Vajrahridaya]

Check this video out, and half way through if you just want to skip to that part, it goes into a theory of levels of consciousness. The stage before level 7 in this model is filled with new identity finding, where one is renouncing old ways of thinking and arguing internally with all that doesn't represent this new finding of a deeper meaning to everything. Level #7 is really well thought out and I fully agree!

 

Check it out guys... it's very interesting.

 

[Vajrahridaya]

With Yin and Yang, there can be rising and waxing. Thus there is increase and decrease in both.

 

Life cycles can go through similar stages.

 

Once we have attained the harmony of our life cycle with the true source Light of life, therein harmony manifests itself.

 

Then there is increase and decrease again, but there is a higher calling to fulfill.

 

Often it is better to cultivate to a higher level, and then do the worldly things. But it can go the other way around.

 

My 0.02 cents. Good luck with your journey BOL.

 

If you (ever do) come back let us know!

 

My point exactly! I don't want to discourage his process. It's an important one!

[doc benway]

Its painful when a child realizes things change and can be taken away. I don't think the solution is to run away from family and pleasurable things. Good things should be cherished and appreciated, all the more so because they are impermanent. Enjoy your family, your friends, health and wealth; learn and grow. Change doesn't have to be bad. The experience of loss is bitter sweet because you connected; and in connection there is level of love and understanding.

 

 

Is being a mushroom growing in the dark, the ultimate? Are ascetics who punish and deny themselves the way? How much of my humanity should I cede away; Friends, taste buds, eyes, or dick? No, let me have pleasure. Within wise constraints they make my life worthwhile. If you lack wisdom and these things cause you pain, by all means back away, re-evaluate, but to give them up because at some unknown time in the future they'll be gone is to lose the spice of life.

 

IMO desire is okay as long as you are contented with what you have. Desires are a wind that can keep us moving on course. When they become too strong its time drop sails and reevaluate where we're headed.

 

 

Ofcourse I write this as someone who is clearly on the householders path. There is a time to eat bitter. But it should be realized even that is a phase. We discipline ourselves to grow stronger. Once we've grown, we can laugh at ourselves and take the time to enjoy life, love and laughter.

Amen.

Life is precious exactly because of death.

Beautiful things like family, children, friendships, lovers, are precious because they will be gone someday.

It is the way of things - Taji.

If you choose not to live because you fear death, if you choose not to love because you fear loss, what a dreary life you will lead.

I feel sorry for you but I do understand. An insulated life in a little safe, padded box doesn't seem like it will be painful or threatening but life is not without pain or loss even for the masters.

And why so much talk about the masters anyway?

They are themselves, we are ourselves.

It is not my goal to become them but to become me!

And no one can show me how to be me but me.

Edited May 20, 2011 by steve f

[doc benway]

Double post

Edited May 20, 2011 by steve f

[Non]

so why even care to survive then?