can't you see the gods can take away your family, your children, your wealth, your health, even your sexual abilities anytime they want to?

[goldisheavy]

I've had an epiphany!

I'm an intolerant, extremist, egoist, coward who has the audacity to advocate verbal non-violence on a forum devoted to spiritual investigation.

I feel much better now.

Thanks Gold.

Good times buddy.

 

Yes, exactly. It's just as I've explained. Take heart though, because you're only an extremist to the extent you continue to insist on an extreme and absolutist solution. You're not permanently branded an extremist from now and until eternity (certainly not by me, that's for sure). But as long as you maintain an extreme and an intolerant view, you are an extremist. You're unwilling to tolerate even the slightest insult and you advocate and support a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to insults.

[goldisheavy]

Gold, you are so f'ed up I am truely surprised that you are able to write so well and express youself as well as you do.

 

Marble, you're pretty awesome, you know that?

 

So did I gain anything from my above statement? Sure I did. I got to rub my ego. Did I lose anything? Sure I did. I likely lost some respect of some members here.

 

Idiot. You've gained my respect when you said that and you touched something deep within me, something very true. It's too bad I can't be sure if you're totally honest or if you're just posturing to make a point.

[Marblehead]

Marble, you're pretty awesome, you know that?

 

 

 

Idiot. You've gained my respect when you said that and you touched something deep within me, something very true. It's too bad I can't be sure if you're totally honest or if you're just posturing to make a point.

 

Dear Gold,

 

Everything I offer here is the truth as I understand it. I do not intentionally try to impress anyone, not even myself.

 

You see, we are not talking face to face so there is much lost when we interact on a forum. One of the big things lost is that we don't know how sincere the other person is. I have never questioned your sincerity. I do know that many have questioned mine. I can do nothing to satisfy that questioning.

 

I mentioned to you, I think it was yesterday, about I admire consistency. If you ever see where I am being inconsistent I would ask that you bring it to my attention.

 

No, not idiot. I simply did not meet all your expectations. Too bad. Suck it up.

 

If you ever make it to North Florida let me know and you will see the 'real me'. I doubt that there will be much difference between what you see here and what you would see in real life.

 

Anyhow, life goes on and we will be and do what we must be and do. But we can't stand still because everything else is changing.

 

And besides, I don't give a shit what you think. Hehehe.

[Apech]

 

 

I don't believe in the permanent banning of any member from a Taoist forum. That just isn't very Taoist. But I do strongly support suspension for rule violation.

 

 

 

There is very little permanent banning mostly only suspensions of varying times - which means people come back automatically at the the end of the period. 99.9% of banning is spammers - which unless you want to read through endless movie downloads, porn and payday loans is necessary.

 

The other 0.1% are people who deliberately are trolling or perhaps multi-posting under different screen names in order to distort conversations or to influence others to come to an opinion about something which is to their advantage in some way - as with political spin doctoring - or something similar and have usually been through a few suspensions first before the whole thing becomes a time wasting exercise.

 

The no insult policy is the main ground for any action and I think the conversation here reflects well what Sean wanted from that. To me its about cultivating good conversation - and I think that is Taoist.

[Marblehead]

There is very little permanent banning mostly only suspensions of varying times - which means people come back automatically at the the end of the period. 99.9% of banning is spammers - which unless you want to read through endless movie downloads, porn and payday loans is necessary.

 

The other 0.1% are people who deliberately are trolling or perhaps multi-posting under different screen names in order to distort conversations or to influence others to come to an opinion about something which is to their advantage in some way - as with political spin doctoring - or something similar and have usually been through a few suspensions first before the whole thing becomes a time wasting exercise.

 

The no insult policy is the main ground for any action and I think the conversation here reflects well what Sean wanted from that. To me its about cultivating good conversation - and I think that is Taoist.

 

Thaks for the response to my comment. I pretty much knew this was the case but I think what you hae said here will be helpful to many of the members.

 

I agree, the trolling, the unpaid advertising, is unacceptable. I always report it whenever I see it. And I agree that porn should be unacceptable on this forum. There are plenty of those kinds of sites one can go to if they want to engage in that.

 

Again, thanks.

[doc benway]

Yes, exactly. It's just as I've explained. Take heart though, because you're only an extremist to the extent you continue to insist on an extreme and absolutist solution. You're not permanently branded an extremist from now and until eternity (certainly not by me, that's for sure). But as long as you maintain an extreme and an intolerant view, you are an extremist. You're unwilling to tolerate even the slightest insult and you advocate and support a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to insults.

I guess you missed my sarcasm just like you've missed the point of my posts.

I continue to disagree with you fundamentally, I'm just not interested in prolonged debate.

 

I never said anything about zero tolerance. Those are your words.

I used words like "never healthy", "never necessary", and "never appropriate" - I stand by that regarding personal insult.

And as always, it is only the opinion of one person. It is something I aspire to myself. I am not forcing this on anyone.

As you should be able to tell from this conversation, I am very tolerant of insult, I simply choose to avoid it myself.

 

What I am talking about is trying to cultivate the mindset of choosing not to offer personal insults.

Making a choice to communicate in more skillful and mature ways, not mandating or legislating it.

That's a personal decision for each of us to make. It is a challenge, not an admonition or demand.

This is an invitation. This is an opportunity for cultivation. This is trying to integrate the heart with the intellect.

Tempering argument with compassion. It's not for everyone and that's fine.

 

As I said earlier - you are welcome to communicate as you see fit.

I invite all to consider my perspective and you are all free to agree or disagree, it doesn't really matter to me.

I'm not concerned with your reassurance, agreement, or approval.

 

PS Keep your day job, you're armchair psychoanalysis is way off the mark

[goldisheavy]

If you ever make it to North Florida let me know and you will see the 'real me'. I doubt that there will be much difference between what you see here and what you would see in real life.

 

That's a kind offer. I appreciate it.

 

Anyhow, life goes on and we will be and do what we must be and do. But we can't stand still because everything else is changing.

 

And besides, I don't give a shit what you think. Hehehe.

 

Great! That's a relief. No, seriously. I only hope you give a shit about what you think though, otherwise you're going to be a mindless zombie or a crazed dittohead, and that would be tragic, not to mention inconvenient for me personally.

[goldisheavy]

I guess you missed my sarcasm just like you've missed the point of my posts.

 

No I didn't. What makes you think I missed your sarcasm?

 

I continue to disagree with you fundamentally, I'm just not interested in prolonged debate.

 

Neither am I. I think I've presented my point very well. Why beat the dead horse, right?

 

I never said anything about zero tolerance. Those are your words.

I used words like "never healthy", "never necessary", and "never appropriate" - I stand by that regarding personal insult.

 

Nope. You also confirmed that when moderators step in when insults appear, that's perfectly appropriate. When you were explaining this position of yours, you made it crystal clear that you don't have any notion of "forgivable amount of insults." There is no such thing for you at least as far as your presented doctrine goes (although I bet you make exceptions from it in real life, it's just too bad you can't be a man enough to dignify those exceptions with a more permanent place in your outlook).

 

And as always, it is only the opinion of one person. It is something I aspire to myself. I am not forcing this on anyone.

 

Well, you did express your approval of strict moderation. That's power. You cast your voice, however "small" you claim it is, in the direction of intolerance. "I'm just one man" blah blah. Every man is important. What you say matters. That's why I am arguing with you now because your opinion is important.

 

As you should be able to tell from this conversation, I am very tolerant of insult, I simply choose to avoid it myself.

 

Perhaps if you didn't cast your approval on the acts of the moderators I'd view what you said somewhat differently.

 

What I am talking about is trying to cultivate the mindset of choosing not to offer personal insults.

 

I cultivate the mindset of choosing not to offer distortions and lies. I feel sparkly clean 95% of the time. The other 5% I feel dirty and vulgar. I want people to know the truth in every case. I don't want to hide in the closet when I feel wrathful or angry or indignant, or upset. I want to express it. Everything passes though. I don't stay angry. I can't even if I want to. Eventually I get tired or hungry or sleepy, and then eventually something else catches my interest. And I am not vengeful either.

 

And yes, believe it or not, I moderate myself already. I don't censor myself though and I never will. I believe I was suspended on this forum wrongly many times, and for excessive durations too. Frankly, moderators on this forum are dicks sometimes. They only think of themselves when they moderate. They even say, "it's our little home, and we do what we want here." How selfish is that? It's not your little home. It's a neutral meeting place for everyone who shares an interest. If you don't want to respect that, you have no right to pretend to a forum. Shame. And then you, whom I consider rather like a friend, goes ahead and supports these fools with your words. That's disappointing, to say the least.

 

Anyway, there is a limit to what I can do in a given time. I always prevail because I work over periods of thousands and millions of years, but there is only so much I can do in a few years. Also, the naps are important. I love my naps.

 

Making a choice to communicate in more skillful and mature ways, not mandating or legislating it.

 

There is nothing mature about being polite. It's a shame really. Kids have better communication because they say what they feel. Sometimes feelings get hurt, but you always know where you stand, and problems can get solved because nothing is hidden under the hood where it can't be reached.

 

Be honest Steve. Do you think I am advocating that we simply start insulting each other? Tell me. Just be honest. Don't go back and reread my posts. Just tell me your impression. What do you think I want?

Edited May 24, 2011 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

There is very little permanent banning mostly only suspensions of varying times - which means people come back automatically at the the end of the period. 99.9% of banning is spammers - which unless you want to read through endless movie downloads, porn and payday loans is necessary.

 

What was my last suspension? I can't remember now. More than a few months, I think. It's pure bullshit. It should have been a week tops, but if I was running the forum, it would have been nothing. But then, if I was running the forum, I wouldn't be going around calling it "my little house." I'd have a bit more respect for people who come here than that. Nor would I have suspended bodyoflight or the taoist dude from Canada with his Fu (I forget his name... something Mak, is it Mak Tin Si? I can't recall now).

 

Anyway, I think for the most part the moderators here are not too bad. I am just concerned with Steve here because I think Steve thinks he's being such a noble guy, but he's actually advocating something that's ignoble in spirit and it's going to backfire (actually it backfires all the time in society already).

 

The only people who should be banned are the ones who try to sell viagra and spam. Suspensions should never be longer than a month, no matter what.

 

Further, you should announce all suspensions publicly. You should announce who got suspended, why, and for how long. I've had people send me private messages asking me if I had disappeared or what happened to me. Instead of making your foul moderation decisions public, you shamefully disappear people like the Chinese government. You should have a forum that's dedicated to announcing suspensions. People should be able to go there and find out the truth, so that people don't have to wonder if someone left of their own will or has been disappeared by the TTB gestapo.

Edited May 24, 2011 by goldisheavy

[manitou]

 

Yes, love is the treasure. Extremism harms love. It's exactly love that compels me to protest extreme ideologies and policies.

 

And it's also nice to put our money where our mouth is - to do it in a loving fashion. The treasure lives in the heart.

[goldisheavy]

And it's also nice to put our money where our mouth is - to do it in a loving fashion. The treasure lives in the heart.

 

That's right.

[Marblehead]

 

Great! That's a relief. No, seriously. I only hope you give a shit about what you think though, otherwise you're going to be a mindless zombie or a crazed dittohead, and that would be tragic, not to mention inconvenient for me personally.

 

Well, actually, I do care about you. I read nearly every post you make. (Excluding topics I just don't read at all.) I wouldn't want to see you going on vacation just because you felt it necessary to over-express yourself in response to what another member had said.

 

There are plenty of good ways to strongly disagree with a comment or an individual without using gutter language.

 

Well, I think I have a pretty good handle on what thoughts I allow to mingle around in my brain. And remember, I am one of those who follow no path while on my journey to nowhere. Flexibility! Ah!, I love it!

[三江源]

.

Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[Apech]

 

 

And yes, believe it or not, I moderate myself already. I don't censor myself though and I never will. I believe I was suspended on this forum wrongly many times, and for excessive durations too. Frankly, moderators on this forum are dicks sometimes. They only think of themselves when they moderate. They even say, "it's our little home, and we do what we want here." How selfish is that? It's not your little home. It's a neutral meeting place for everyone who shares an interest. If you don't want to respect that, you have no right to pretend to a forum. Shame. And then you, whom I consider rather like a friend, goes ahead and supports these fools with your words. That's disappointing, to say the least.

 

 

 

Only sometimes? Well that's a start.

 

I don't think of myself when moderating. I remember a long PM exchange with you where all I was asking you to do was stop saying 'fuck you' to everyone. You refused. There is an insult policy. Its not hard to understand really. If you insult people you may get suspended ... that's it ... nothing else.

[doc benway]

When you were explaining this position of yours, you made it crystal clear that you don't have any notion of "forgivable amount of insults." There is no such thing for you at least as far as your presented doctrine goes (although I bet you make exceptions from it in real life, it's just too bad you can't be a man enough to dignify those exceptions with a more permanent place in your outlook).

Again- the point I am making is that I choose not to insult. I challenge others to consider doing the same. I am very forgiving with respect to insults. I forgive you entirely for the insulting things you've said about me in this discussion. I have no problem with the moderators using their judgement. As I've said, I've never logged a single complaint about anyone save one. I'm talking about making a choice with the heart.

 

 

Well, you did express your approval of strict moderation. That's power. You cast your voice, however "small" you claim it is, in the direction of intolerance. "I'm just one man" blah blah. Every man is important. What you say matters. That's why I am arguing with you now because your opinion is important.

I support whatever level of moderation our mod team deems appropriate. Strict, not strict, I really don't care. I care about my own choices and raise the opportunity for all. And I really do appreciate the fact that you value my opinion.

 

 

 

I cultivate the mindset of choosing not to offer distortions and lies. I feel sparkly clean 95% of the time. The other 5% I feel dirty and vulgar. I want people to know the truth in every case.

I disagree - insults are nearly always distortions. An insult is a personal attack. In general, it is more accurate to attack a statement, idea, or behavior. On a forum, as was posted earlier, we can only address words on the screen. We don't know the people well enough to address their person. So most insults are either generalizations or are based on assumptions that may or may not be accurate. Using insults in your online communication is more likely to cause you to offer distortions than avoiding them.

 

There is nothing mature about being polite. It's a shame really. Kids have better communication because they say what they feel. Sometimes feelings get hurt, but you always know where you stand, and problems can get solved because nothing is hidden under the hood where it can't be reached.

 

Be honest Steve. Do you think I am advocating that we simply start insulting each other? Tell me. Just be honest. Don't go back and reread my posts. Just tell me your impression. What do you think I want?

Again we must agree to disagree. Being polite is a characteristic of maturity. Yielding to impulse is a characteristic of immaturity. Both are valid choices. The polite, mature interaction is more likely to lead to collaboration and compromise - the hallmarks of civil interaction. Impulsive behavior is more likely to lead to conflict in adults. We are not children and do not behave like children in our adult interactions (well, most of us anyway). I agree completely that open and honest communication, even to the point of being blunt and frank, is best and it is my preferred approach. It is more likely to be successful and well received when offered without personal insult.

 

I think you want to be able to freely express yourself as you see fit. I think that you are not concerned enough with considering the feelings of others. Perhaps you equate that with intellectual honesty and integrity. I think that you currently feel intellectual honesty is more important than compassion and love. I understand that position all too well.

 

I also honor and value intellectual honesty and integrity. There was a very long time in my life when I was consumed with the intellectual and analytical side of me and totally lost touch with the emotional side. This resulted in an imbalance that has had a negative impact on my relationships with my family members (parents, wife, kids...). I've worked diligently over the past few years to rediscover my emotional being and I've come to value and honor love, compassion, and the heart as much as intellect and analysis. I intend to implement both in my life and at this point in time I feel like the heart is taking a slight priority over the mind. That's my choice right here and right now and the background behind my comments regarding insult. This approach has helped to resore balance in my own life and has helped me to deal much better with my professional life as well.

 

Thanks for listening.

[manitou]

And I also think it's important for those who consider themselves Daoist oriented to see the Sage as a model. My bet is that he would always take the high road in getting his point across.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Again- the point I am making is that I choose not to insult. I challenge others to consider doing the same.

 

I've always found this type of comment to be rather interesting. Very often, I have seen it come from the same emotional space that many others deride- yet it is cloaked in civil niceties, and strategically places the ball on the other person's court.

 

"I know you like to insult, you can do it if you want, but I am not, and I think you should try to match me, if you can't, that's okay, it's just something I can do and you cannot, oh but you are free to try, and if you fail, you'll just prove me right. Now the gauntlet has been thrown- if you rebel, you prove me right that you're immature. If you rise to my challenge, you are doing what I want you to do. Either way, I win, hahahaha."

 

Maybe I'm just projecting.

 

And not saying that you are doing that right now, Steve. It's just that I've always found it odd how people who try to clear the air can let slip things like this (consciously or not) which invariably are seen as challenges, and only serve to prod the other person further.

 

I disagree - insults are nearly always distortions. An insult is a personal attack. In general, it is more accurate to attack a statement, idea, or behavior. On a forum, as was posted earlier, we can only address words on the screen. We don't know the people well enough to address their person. So most insults are either generalizations or are based on assumptions that may or may not be accurate. Using insults in your online communication is more likely to cause you to offer distortions than avoiding them.

 

Hmm, I dunno. Sometimes if somebody is acting like a dick, there are only so many ways that you can circuitously comment on their posts hinting at their phallic like behavior. Interestingly enough, the very elongated objects who we hope will recognize how unwelcome their protrusions into the innocence of our forum are, are very often the most oblivious to their own behavior. So maybe a little slap and a comment of "stop being a dick" not only cuts right to the point, but can be effective.

 

But if you put enough qualifiers on something, anything can be true

 

Again we must agree to disagree. Being polite is a characteristic of maturity. Yielding to impulse is a characteristic of immaturity. Both are valid choices. The polite, mature interaction is more likely to lead to collaboration and compromise - the hallmarks of civil interaction. Impulsive behavior is more likely to lead to conflict in adults. We are not children and do not behave like children in our adult interactions (well, most of us anyway). I agree completely that open and honest communication, even to the point of being blunt and frank, is best and it is my preferred approach. It is more likely to be successful and well received when offered without personal insult.

 

Similar to the first segment, perhaps? Challenges and demeaning comments cloaked in social nicety?

 

I think you want to be able to freely express yourself as you see fit. I think that you are not concerned enough with considering the feelings of others. Perhaps you equate that with intellectual honesty and integrity. I think that you currently feel intellectual honesty is more important than compassion and love. I understand that position all too well.

 

To deny the expletives and insults is to deny our very humanity!

 

Perchance.

 

I also honor and value intellectual honesty and integrity. There was a very long time in my life when I was consumed with the intellectual and analytical side of me and totally lost touch with the emotional side. This resulted in an imbalance that has had a negative impact on my relationships with my family members (parents, wife, kids...). I've worked diligently over the past few years to rediscover my emotional being and I've come to value and honor love, compassion, and the heart as much as intellect and analysis. I intend to implement both in my life and at this point in time I feel like the heart is taking a slight priority over the mind. That's my choice right here and right now and the background behind my comments regarding insult. This approach has helped to resore balance in my own life and has helped me to deal much better with my professional life as well.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

My own background with insults is that I was raised in a very sheltered environment. When I got into the "outside world" people would call me things and I had no idea what they were. I'd go home and look them up, and be like "why would someone even want to say that?" or "that doesn't even make any sense" or "and how would that even both me?" A bit intellectual perhaps. But then you go into the reasons for why someone would insult. Intellectualism leading into emotions a bit. Sympathy for the devil. And then back to intellectualism.

 

So, I dunno, after that, insults were never a big deal for me.

 

Overarching forum rules and moderation policy is a whole other can of worms, and I don't like those. I thought I'd throw in my opinions regarding the overarching themes, though.

 

And I also think it's important for those who consider themselves Daoist oriented to see the Sage as a model. My bet is that he would always take the high road in getting his point across.

 

I think a Daoist Sage would take the low road "Leave me in the mud", as it were.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Jetsun]

My understanding of Taoism is it is a way of being un-contrived, to apply this to posting on the internet would be to just post what's on your mind, your first reactions, not to censor what you reply, not to go back and edit it and if it offends someone you are better off apologising for that after the event rather than micro editing your interactions with people, which is just a form of contriving your reply into an unnatural response trying to create a contrived image rather than trusting in your spontaneous response. I'm still working on this myself, if working on being un-contrived is even possible

[imonous]

I haven't opened this thread since page 3 and im absolutely amazed that this has gone 12 pages. An no i didn't bother to read anything between.

[lifeforce]

I haven't opened this thread since page 3 and im absolutely amazed that this has gone 12 pages. An no i didn't bother to read anything between.

 

I know, it's ridiculous.

Whether or not folks agree on the thread's original point, it has been derailed by personal arguments.

This seems to be the norm now on the forums.

The quality of content has nosedived. There isn't much original material about, just re-hashed old topics.

[Otis]

Here's what the Buddha said...

 

The experiential result is...

 

Nagarjuna's Mahamudra Vision

Excellent! Thanks for the share.

 

I agree very much with (what I interpret as the meaning of) the quotes you included.

 

I'm curious to see what your interpretation is. Would you be willing to pen a quick summary of how you understand these words?

[imonous]

Yes some users are obviously too pushing/insulting when it comes to the language in their posts. Freedom of speech has the price of knowing how to use it. Properly and effectively.

[Otis]

My understanding of Taoism is it is a way of being un-contrived, to apply this to posting on the internet would be to just post what's on your mind, your first reactions, not to censor what you reply, not to go back and edit it and if it offends someone you are better off apologising for that after the event rather than micro editing your interactions with people, which is just a form of contriving your reply into an unnatural response trying to create a contrived image rather than trusting in your spontaneous response.

I agree that authentic flow is an important place to practice, and is at the centerpiece of my dance, stretch, etc.

 

I do think that communication is a little bit different.

 

If we want to be understood, rather than just to express ourselves, then I think we do need to consider: how will this be heard? If we want to reach people, rather than just vent and unload, then IME we need to consider the person we're writing for. For example, we have to remember that we are speaking to egos, and modify our content accordingly. Doing otherwise is pretending that what is in my head is more important than what is out there in the world.

 

Buddha taught one sermon by raising a flower, but (as I understand it) he reached only one person. He knew the dharma would be misunderstood, precisely because it was written in words, but he preached it anyway, because that is the trade-off in trying to reach most people.

 

I think these are complementary truths, not contradictions. Yin truths balancing yang truths.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Whether or not folks agree on the thread's original point, it has been derailed by personal arguments.

This seems to be the norm now on the forums.

 

I've said this many a time:

 

Thread drift does not equate to a decline in the quality of conversation that goes on in a thread.

 

Just because you skip to page 13 and we aren't talking about exactly what was on page 1, doesn't mean there is not valuable things in between.

 

Plus, the OP is on a bit of hiatus. Kinda hard to discuss a topic when half a topic's proponents are away.

 

The quality of content has nosedived. There isn't much original material about, just re-hashed old topics.

 

Perhaps you are one of the few, the proud, the now-in-a-point-in-life-where-posting-on-forums-is-not-the-best-use-of-your-time.

 

I recall that one year I heard a motivational speaker, and thought he was SOOOO good. I told all my friends about him. The next year he visited again, and I went to see him. UGH. Complete and utter garbage! Nonsense! I don't know what it was. I like to chalk it up to personal experience and growth. But he just didn't do anything for me anymore.

 

Doesn't mean he's a bad guy, or unhelpful to others. Just, not for me.

 

I don't consider myself a TTB "old timer" by a long shot (I'm not ever that old, for starters ) but I've seen my fair share of masturbation threads, tantra threads, kunlun threads, hot-to-trot-master-sensei debunking threads. They come and go. It's cyclical. For a long time, I just didn't post at all. Then posted a bit. Then didn't post at all. Sometimes there is really, really, REALLY good stuff on here. Sometimes..... uh, where do I press to stop the jing from escaping during orgasm?

[goldisheavy]

I've said this many a time:

 

Thread drift does not equate to a decline in the quality of conversation that goes on in a thread.

 

Just because you skip to page 13 and we aren't talking about exactly what was on page 1, doesn't mean there is not valuable things in between.

 

Plus, the OP is on a bit of hiatus. Kinda hard to discuss a topic when half a topic's proponents are away.

 

Right on Sloppy,

 

I think the original thread starter, bodyoflight, was the only proponent of the topic. So once he was forcefully allowed to take a break from posting, guess what? Yes, the whole thread was effectively over and it just became a natural place to discuss the mindset that underlies the moderation practice. I don't see it as something that ruins the thread. It's just a natural evolution of the thread given what happened.

 

When fish evolve into lizards, are they ruined? No, I don't think so. A lizard is not a ruined fish.

Edited May 24, 2011 by goldisheavy