What is magic? How does magic work?

[goldisheavy]

 

[InfinityTruth]

Sweet.

 

I've heard that a lot of magic is just a lot of meditation(That's what this kid who studies the occult told me). There's a site somewhere on the net that has aleister crowley's works. Huge amount of them. Just google Aleister Crowley I think it's like the first one.

 

His stuff is pretty extreme though. To gain a strong will in one of the practices like you can't say certain word you say a lot. When you do (and you will) you have to cut yourself with a knife. "This trains you to obey yourself and to not fear the talons of the eagle."

[Cat Pillar]

Sweet.

 

I've heard that a lot of magic is just a lot of meditation(That's what this kid who studies the occult told me). There's a site somewhere on the net that has aleister crowley's works. Huge amount of them. Just google Aleister Crowley I think it's like the first one.

 

His stuff is pretty extreme though. To gain a strong will in one of the practices like you can't say certain word you say a lot. When you do (and you will) you have to cut yourself with a knife. "This trains you to obey yourself and to not fear the talons of the eagle."

 

I was never a big fan of Crowley. I always preferred Franz Bardon. Never really dedicated myself to the system, but I have found his theory and instructions to be very helpful. His emphasis on a balanced approach to development are something I've stayed mindful of, and I seem to be unwittingly following Step One through the practices I've adopted, especially that of self-inquiry.

 

Re: the video...who's narrating that? I've always wanted to read the Illuminatus trilogy...I've heard great things about RAW, but haven't really delved much into his works.

 

Do you like hotdogs, goldisheavy?

[Marblehead]

Magic works if you believe it works.

[Taomeow]

Magic works if you believe it works.

 

Why then nothing else works like that? Religion doesn't work just because you believe it works. Science doesn't work just because you believe it works. Physical forces don't work just because you believe they work. Everywhere you look, believing in things is never enough to make them work. So then what is it about magic that makes conditions for its working so streamlined and why is this streamlining not available to any other modalities?

[Marblehead]

Why then nothing else works like that? Religion doesn't work just because you believe it works. Science doesn't work just because you believe it works. Physical forces don't work just because you believe they work. Everywhere you look, believing in things is never enough to make them work. So then what is it about magic that makes conditions for its working so streamlined and why is this streamlining not available to any other modalities?

 

Excellent response and challenge to my statement. Let's see how this little pea-brain of my is working this morning.

 

Religion does work. You have a belief that prayer works. So you pray for something. Sometimes what you prayed for materialize. All is good. Sometimes your prayer isn't answered. You can always find reasons why your prayer was not fulfilled, like, maybe you weren't ready for that yet, maybe you have more lessons to learn first. So really the prayer worked even when it didn't work because you were given a message from God in response to your prayer.

 

Science does work. You have a belief in evolution. Every time something new is uncovered your belief is reinforced. Every time something is debunked you say, "See, science works because whatever is stated must be true all the time and it is good that science has ways to prove and support its findings.

 

Physical forces work. If you believe that there are given processes in the universe (cause = force) the processes will be obvious every time you observe an effect. Even centralized physical force works if we know the capabilities and capacities of the force (our physical strength). If we believe we can do such and such because we have done it before then we will most likely be able to do it. If we fail we say that we let out body go without proper exercise too long so we get into an exercise program.

 

Now, believing in something physically impossible is a different story. Yes, on occasion we will observe something and manipulate the effect in our brain so that it appears that the impossible happened. We can do that if we believe in miracles.

 

Believing in something very strongly will allow us to create all sorts of illusions and delusions that allow us to observe an event and form all types of 'wrong' logic to explain that it happened exactly the way we believe.

 

Now, no, you cannot sit on your butt and believe that three million dollars is going to materialize right in front of you. No matter how much you believe it will happen it simply will not happen. For anyone to believe something like that they would have to be very far out in space.

 

And remember, belief in magic is a very well-rooted belief in all cultures. When we are children adults are constantly do magic things for us. Isn't it neat how our brains are formed like playdoh?

[Cat Pillar]

One of these days I'm gonna turn you into a newt for your insolence, Marblehead!

 

:lol:

[Marblehead]

One of these days I'm gonna turn you into a newt for your insolence, Marblehead!

 

:lol:

 

Hehehe. Funny, I am a member of a forum that has a number of believers in magic. Promises like that have been made to me before.

[Taomeow]

Well, Marble, magic works because it is top science, and doesn't work when a computer is delivered to a caveman and plugged into a hole in the wall that has no electrical outlet. "Impossible" is how science of about a hundred years ago defined travel by car at speeds over 30 miles per hour, and flying of objects heavier than air. Volumes of scientific proof of this impossibility were written by top scientists of the time. Cavemen, all of them.

 

Scientists of today whose opinion about magic is based on similar know-it-all theories are in the same boat with those other cavemen.

 

Get outta that boat, it's going into a scientific dead end. Magic works because the universe isn't.

[Marblehead]

Well, Marble, magic works because it is top science, and doesn't work when a computer is delivered to a caveman and plugged into a hole in the wall that has no electrical outlet. "Impossible" is how science of about a hundred years ago defined travel by car at speeds over 30 miles per hour, and flying of objects heavier than air. Volumes of scientific proof of this impossibility were written by top scientists of the time. Cavemen, all of them.

 

Scientists of today whose opinion about magic is based on similar know-it-all theories are in the same boat with those other cavemen.

 

Get outta that boat, it's going into a scientific dead end. Magic works because the universe isn't.

 

Well, if nothing else at least I know where you stand concerning this subject. Hehehe.

 

I think it is at this point where I should suggest that we agree to disagree. I really don't want to mess with anyone's belief system - just expressing my understanding.

 

Thanks for causing me to think though.

[Taomeow]

Well, if nothing else at least I know where you stand concerning this subject. Hehehe.

 

I think it is at this point where I should suggest that we agree to disagree. I really don't want to mess with anyone's belief system - just expressing my understanding.

 

Thanks for causing me to think though.

 

You are most welcome. I don't mind agreeing to disagree. I don't do more than just skip the daisies when touching upon the subject, as a general rule I don't find it fruitful to discuss magic online. But I wanted to throw in just one clarification.

 

When I make an omelet, it has nothing to do with my "belief system" -- I don't have any particular beliefs regarding omelets, just a basic recipe and then a lot of practice to improve on it and make it "just so," work out to my and other eaters satisfaction. It's exactly like that with magic too. I don't have any particular beliefs regarding magic... See, unlike religion or fundamentalist institutionalized science, magic is not a belief system at all.

 

It's a technology for using natural phenomena -- such as, e.g., ganying. Do you know how to use ganying? If you did, it would be the beginning of one aspect of magical work. That you don't do this work causes you to believe that those who do this work do it out of a "belief." But ganying is not a belief. Galaxies ARE spirals, hair on your head DOES grow in a spiral, water in your drain DOES drain in a spiral, seeds on a strawberry DO arrange themselves in a spiral, DNA IS a spiral, sound vibrations DO reshape spirals in the sand, water, and strawberries (and galaxies too), words DO reshape them differently from white noise, meanings DO reshape them differently from the meaningless, order DOES differ from chaos... Knowing how to USE what seems like chaos toward a particular order by "using qi, not li" (to quote taoist classics) and then, at a greater stage of proficiency with the omelet, "using yi, not qi," and then, at the next level of omelet expertise, "using ganying, not yi," is magic. Sheesh, and I promised to shut up. Sorry...

[Sloppy Zhang]

You are most welcome. I don't mind agreeing to disagree. I don't do more than just skip the daisies when touching upon the subject, as a general rule I don't find it fruitful to discuss magic online. But I wanted to throw in just one clarification.

 

When I make an omelet, it has nothing to do with my "belief system" -- I don't have any particular beliefs regarding omelets, just a basic recipe and then a lot of practice to improve on it and make it "just so," work out to my and other eaters satisfaction. It's exactly like that with magic too. I don't have any particular beliefs regarding magic... See, unlike religion or fundamentalist institutionalized science, magic is not a belief system at all.

 

It's a technology for using natural phenomena -- such as, e.g., ganying. Do you know how to use ganying? If you did, it would be the beginning of one aspect of magical work. That you don't do this work causes you to believe that those who do this work do it out of a "belief." But ganying is not a belief. Galaxies ARE spirals, hair on your head DOES grow in a spiral, water in your drain DOES drain in a spiral, seeds on a strawberry DO arrange themselves in a spiral, DNA IS a spiral, sound vibrations DO reshape spirals in the sand, water, and strawberries (and galaxies too), words DO reshape them differently from white noise, meanings DO reshape them differently from the meaningless, order DOES differ from chaos... Knowing how to USE what seems like chaos toward a particular order by "using qi, not li" (to quote taoist classics) and then, at a greater stage of proficiency with the omelet, "using yi, not qi," and then, at the next level of omelet expertise, "using ganying, not yi," is magic. Sheesh, and I promised to shut up. Sorry...

 

*whispers* pssst, taomeow, what is ganying?

[Taomeow]

*whispers* pssst, taomeow, what is ganying?

 

One of the basics of the taoist unified theory of reality (along with wuji, yin-yang, qi, wuxing). Sometimes translated as "resonance," better understood as a phenomenon of "fractal self-similarity" of natural occurrences, both phenomena and objects, or as both a cause and a manifestation of the "holographic" nature of the universe --

 

or as the classics succinctly put it, "tao fa ziran" -- tao patterns itself on itself. In the European traditions, it faintly resonated, e.g., into the medical "doctrine of signatures" (later forbidden by the new overlords of medicine). In all native traditions, the deep and fruitful understanding of this phenomenon is behind all self-similarity practices of shamanism, from rain sticks of weather shamans (used in conjunction with a whole bunch of other know-how) to generate resonance in the form of a "bigger" rain, to dolls into which parts of the bigger person they represent are incorporated (nail clippings, hair, semen, menstrual blood, sweat, etc. -- these dolls are also used universally, in voodoo and in Siberian shamanism and in Australian aboriginal systems alike), to many, many other things.

 

In taoism, ganying is what real traditional (not the bogus commercial kind mostly polularized in the West) feng shui works with. It's also the reason why taoist sword masters practice calligraphy, why talismanic sorcery requires years of neigong cultivation, and so on. That's ganying in some of its practical magical applications which, with a lot of know-how and practice, work quite independently of any "beliefs."

[neiye]

*whispers* pssst, taomeow, what is ganying?

 

Gan-Ying is Tian ren Gan-ying which the resonance between Heaven and Man ( in the model of a stimulus-response). This concept has been first elaborated from Yijing to describe how Qi has evolved into two qi, yin and yang, interacting (gan ying) with each other and giving birth to the ten thousand beings (Xian, Tuanzhuan, commentary of the 31th hexagram). In my understanding gan-ying describe the universal connection between things, beings and human beings.

Taomeow will do best than me to explain it.

Edit: too late, she has already answered

Edited May 21, 2011 by neiye

[Taomeow]

Gan-Ying is Tian ren Gan-ying which the resonance between Heaven and Man ( in the model of a stimulus-response). This concept has been first elaborated from Yijing to describe how Qi has evolved into two qi, yin and yang, interacting (gan ying) with each other and giving birth to the ten thousand beings (Xian, Tuanzhuan, commentary of the 31th hexagram). In my understanding gan-ying describe the universal connection between things, beings and human beings.

Taomeow will do best than me to explain it.

Edit: too late, she has already answered

 

Synchronicity (ganying by Jung's name ) strikes again -- we posted pretty simultaneously, and your explanation is very good!

[neiye]

_/\_

 

Synchronicity (ganying by Jung's name ) strikes again -- we posted pretty simultaneously, and your explanation is very good!

[Marblehead]

Sheesh, and I promised to shut up. Sorry...

 

Hehehe. That's okay. I can handle it.

 

No, I don't do ganying. I don't even know what it is.

 

However, what I hear you saying is that you have learned to use certain natural processes of the universe that many do not understand. This is not magic.

 

I think that your omelet example is a good one we could play with.

 

You saw your Mom (or someone) crack an egg or two, drop them into a frying pan, scramble them up a bit and and magically an omelet appeared. What a delicious feast that first omelet was!

 

Once again you see the same thing happen. Now you believe this is something that will happen every time the process is followed. You do this and your results are the same. Sometimes you use different seasoning and you end up with an omelet that you don't like much. But it is still an omelet. This is a natural process and you believe it will happen every time and so far it has never failed.

 

Now, if your Mom cracked open an egg, dropped it into the frying pan and suddenly a bird jumped up and flew away, this would be even more magical! Your Mom never tells you that it was a trick she played on you. But you believe what you saw, or at least what you think you saw. You ask your mMom to do it again but she tells you that she had to power to do it only then and cannot do it all the time. In your subconscious mind is the image of the bird flying out of the pan and out the door. You believe that it can happen because you saw it once.

 

So back to magic. You believe that there are processes that you can call forward by following a particular set of acts so that something will happen that otherwise, on its own, has not happened. So you have realized a process of nature that most do not understand. I must note here that I equate the word 'magic' with the word 'supernatural'. I do not believe that anything is supernatural. If it is not natural it just isn't. It is then rather an illusion or a delusion.

 

I believe in the concept of 'healing'. But I am always cautious in believing in reported events because there are so many scam artists all around the world.

 

Believing is important in our life. A small child is constantly told that he is stupid. He grows up believing he is stupid and acts in that manner. On the other hand, a child is told that their potential is unlimited and they can become what they wish to be when they grow up. Guess what. They become that.

 

But we are restricted by the physical universe and its prcesses. You cannot believe your arms will become wings if you start flapping them and you will be able to fly. Ain't gonna happen. So to magic, if what is being attempted is physically possible then the magic may very well work. I know someone who cured herself of cancer. Now that is magic! (Not really, but that's beside the point.)

 

So I will never deny that there are those who have special abilities. This is why I have said on a number of occasions that we should test our capabilities and capacities. We may be able to do something that someone else would think is magic.

 

Oh my! I think I have said enough. Did this help clarify my understanding and opinion?

[goldisheavy]

Why then nothing else works like that?

 

Marblehead stated the premise too simply. Coherency of beliefs matters. If you believe in gravity and you also believe in levitation, then your beliefs are incoherent. In this case magic is not likely to work. Magic works when there are no or few blocking beliefs, or if the contradicting beliefs are relatively weak. So the quality and quantity both matter here.

 

Religion doesn't work just because you believe it works.

 

Many people claim it does.

 

Science doesn't work just because you believe it works.

 

Science is axiomatic at its root.

 

Physical forces don't work just because you believe they work.

 

They do. What do you think the body of light is, if you believe such things? How about a Dzogchen practitioner waving his hand through a solid column of stone? I haven't personally seen these specific manifestations, but I've experienced enough strange things that combined with my understanding of things born of contemplation, I believe all such things are possible.

 

Everywhere you look, believing in things is never enough to make them work.

 

It is enough. The question is, is the belief a sincere one? Are there contradictory beliefs? Is the mind in a coherent state? To get nice and easy manifestations your mind has to be coherent and your beliefs sincere. In fact, most sincere and firm beliefs are unconscious, they are silent and tacit beliefs that are so deep that we don't even bother to pronounce them most of the time.

Edited May 21, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Sloppy Zhang]

One of the basics of the taoist unified theory of reality (along with wuji, yin-yang, qi, wuxing). Sometimes translated as "resonance," better understood as a phenomenon of "fractal self-similarity" of natural occurrences, both phenomena and objects, or as both a cause and a manifestation of the "holographic" nature of the universe --

 

or as the classics succinctly put it, "tao fa ziran" -- tao patterns itself on itself. In the European traditions, it faintly resonated, e.g., into the medical "doctrine of signatures" (later forbidden by the new overlords of medicine). In all native traditions, the deep and fruitful understanding of this phenomenon is behind all self-similarity practices of shamanism, from rain sticks of weather shamans (used in conjunction with a whole bunch of other know-how) to generate resonance in the form of a "bigger" rain, to dolls into which parts of the bigger person they represent are incorporated (nail clippings, hair, semen, menstrual blood, sweat, etc. -- these dolls are also used universally, in voodoo and in Siberian shamanism and in Australian aboriginal systems alike), to many, many other things.

 

In taoism, ganying is what real traditional (not the bogus commercial kind mostly polularized in the West) feng shui works with. It's also the reason why taoist sword masters practice calligraphy, why talismanic sorcery requires years of neigong cultivation, and so on. That's ganying in some of its practical magical applications which, with a lot of know-how and practice, work quite independently of any "beliefs."

 

 

Gan-Ying is Tian ren Gan-ying which the resonance between Heaven and Man ( in the model of a stimulus-response). This concept has been first elaborated from Yijing to describe how Qi has evolved into two qi, yin and yang, interacting (gan ying) with each other and giving birth to the ten thousand beings (Xian, Tuanzhuan, commentary of the 31th hexagram). In my understanding gan-ying describe the universal connection between things, beings and human beings.

Taomeow will do best than me to explain it.

Edit: too late, she has already answered

 

 

Many thanks to both of you for the wonderful explanations!

[Marblehead]

Marblehead stated the premise too simply.

 

That's not the first time it has been suggested that I am too simple.

[Stigweard]

Magic is the crystallization of intent.

 

In Taoist parlance: Where Shen goes Qi follows, where Qi goes Jing follows.

 

Next question?

 

[Informer]

Magic is the crystallization of intent.

 

In Taoist parlance: Where Shen goes Qi follows, where Qi goes Jing follows.

 

Next question?

 

 

Wow, nicely put.

[unmike]

Threads like this are why we love Taobums. Many thanks to Taomeow and neiye for the elucidation.

 

What classic and modern resources can you point us toward to further our understanding of ganying?

[neiye]

Threads like this are why we love Taobums. Many thanks to Taomeow and neiye for the elucidation.

 

What classic and modern resources can you point us toward to further our understanding of ganying?

 

Hi unmike,

 

You can read chap 6 of the Huainan zi (a translation has been published recently in english (http://www.amazon.com/Huainanzi-Practice-Government-Translations-Classics/dp/0231142048/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1306048697&sr=1-1)

 

You can also have a look and read about the confucean thinker Dong Zhongshu (195 BCE-115 BCE)in the Fung, Yu-lan A History of Chinese Philosophy Princeton University Press (chap II Tung Chung-shu)(http://www.amazon.com/History-Chinese-Philosophy-Vol-D/dp/0691020221/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1306049066&sr=1-2-fkmr0)

Dong Zhongshu has elaborated a lot about Yuanqi (Primordial Breath)has a manifestation of Gan-ying. Yuanqi has an harmonious and consonant nature (heshun), it is considered by Dong Zhongshu has a manifestation, embodiement of Heaven's will and a median/medium of Gan-Ying between Heaven and Man.

 

Hope some more knowledgeable bums will chime in,

neiye

[三江源]

Magic is the crystallization of intent.

 

In Taoist parlance: Where Shen goes Qi follows, where Qi goes Jing follows.

 

Next question?

 

 

Perfect.