32 signs of a Buddha

[Wayfarer64]

Wayfarer,I strongly recommend you take the time to read the whole thing.I know that this could be a somewhat time consuming proposition,but I think you would find in "un-put-downable" (Im sorry,I really couldnt think of another expression ).I had allready read some of June Campbells experiences as Kalu Rinpoches sex partner,as well as the growing wariness that many are expressing about the Dalai Lamas political ambitions.This document contains a vast amount of info about the degenerate aspects of Tibetan Buddhism,both historical AND contemporary.

 

Now I dont doubt that anybody who spends most of their life in monastically concentrated esoteric yogic practice can produce some remarkable psychic effects on others,but this has NOTHING to do with Spirit,with morality,integrity ,compassion or Enlightenment.When you actually look at the viloent,woman-hating ,power-hungry history of Tibetan Buddhism,both ancient & modern,it really underscores this fact.

 

If we are going to extract the useful yogic aspects from this system,we cant ignore its immense failings in the human sphere.And Tibetan Vajrayana really does have some serious problems,problems that have become institutionalised into yogic dogma & technique.Theres a big differences between the Vajrayana propaganda coming out of Hollywood,and the grim realities of this patriarchal theocracy.

 

Its not just a case of individual human failings here.The system itself is based on some very twisted ideas that are medieval at best in their view of women ,nature & other religions (especially Islam).The whole Tibetan system is ultimately designed to produce the Shambhallah King who intitaites an apocolypse vis the Kalachakra initiation.The power source for all this is the despised Female world-energy,that must be seduced,consumed & destroyed,purified into male-Buddha energy ,redeemed of its femininity.This may not be readily evident,but its definetely there,& has real consequences for the socio-political system derived from it.

 

I realise that what Ive written here may strike some as deeply offensive,but I strongly urge a serious consideration of the matter.I think part of our maturing as practitioners in post-industrial culture consists of refining valid yogic technique out of cultural systems that can be viciously misogynistic.Unfortunately,such techniques are often deeply interwoven into that misogyny

 

This means we must be diligent & brave enough to have some of our more infantile illusions,our cravings for exotic,"perfect" Master-parent figures confronted.A particular difficult thing when that parent figure has the yogic skill to zap you with bliss-vibes,& expounds a system of considerable complexity & sophistication.

 

Sorry about the length of this post,but I really would encourage people here to take a long,serious look at the Vajrayana.To do so,SHADOW OF THE DALAI LAMA an excellent starting place,as it summarises pretty much all of the criticisms and gives you all the references.

 

Regards,Cloud.

 

Dear Cloud-

I will try to spend some time with this quandry. I have often thought of Tibetan Buddhism as an archaic form of cultural backwardness. There is no seperation of church and state, which is a very important factor in governance to me. (That our own culture is becoming more of a theocracy then ever is also worrisome to me. )

I have dealt with many problems of doctine and dogma in every religion I have studied, which is most of them that I have ever heard of. My experience with the Dalai Lama I will also re-evaluate. But the feeling was of compassion between us in a seemingly mutual awareness of the suffering and transcendence of suffering to be found in life.

It remains a source of comfort and strength for me.

Also I have read that the Dalai Lama has said his biggest regret in life was not to have experienced physical love-making with a woman, and the shared experience of being true lovers. This would seem to me that there is a degree of a non-doctrinaire in the man. Though it could just be admitting to a case of horneyness on his part...

I for one do not hold him to be God-like or devine so much as a human who has stretched his potential for compassion to a remarkible degree.

Misogyny is a serious problem world wide. From the burka's fetter to any sex-slave forced onto the market; women have been degraded and objectified, used and abused, reviled and discarded. I'm not sure that the objective truth can be reached as long as males call the shots, but I for one am willing to hold the Tibetans accountable for their cruelties as much as I hold the Han Chinese up to be reviled for their cruelties.

Much of what I have gleaned from the article at hand I have also read in Chinese propaganda meant to under-mine the Dalai Lama. So for me the source is somewhat in question as well.

It seems an extremely out-dfated version of Tibetan society. They are still on a rocky path towards "modernization" much as the Arabs are going through in a very different context of huge wealth and Western rather than Chinese directions given...

In both cases it would seem that women have become the scape-goats for male weaknesses. As societies shatter into brutality or just remain brutal; or struggle out from brutality; women have usually been the uniting/civilizing factor. From the Jewish exodus to the taming of the American West... I say - May the female power to tame the beast within men always prevail!

I actually once did a painting called "Why the Pack Howls" an Abstract-impressionist work about this subject I'll get it online sometime soon...In the mean time I WILL try to follow this expose and get a better grip on the subject. You seem very passionate about this and have gotten my attention.

But please be patient -the week ahead is a real doozy for me already... I'm putting together two different law suits -one for damages in a flood I am still cleaning up from, I am selling off most of my possessions this month so I can just paint and not have to work a day job - which is a tough experience in non-attachment for me right now... And I have a Poetry reading at the Thompkins Square Public Library (East Village NYC) -on the evening of the 9th, so I need to practice some to be in good form for it ...

But this is a serious matter to me and i will get to it eventually.

[GrandTrinity]

WOw that was a serious link my dawg.

 

What was the deal with that? It was incredible, I dont have time to read it all, but wow!

 

What was that deal about Uma Thurman's dad?

 

I felt like guy had decent buddha hood in the move Cry of the Snow Lion. Overall, I think that movie could have been done much better.

[cloud recluse]

Its admittedly a pretty hefty read.I actually went as far as to print the whole thing out & bind it.Perhaps those wanting a quick synopsis,after which you can then refer back to the text for details,should have a glance at the 'Annex" at the bottom of the contets page.

 

http://flameout.org/flameout/gurus/shadow/annex.html

 

The thing is,Im not necessarily calling the Dalai Lama a deliberate phoney,nor am I citing this document as the final arbiter.As Wayfarer has allready pointed out,the Chinese have churned out considerable propaganda to justify their own atrocities in Tibet.

 

But its also true that even those with an Enlightened Spirit can carry a heavily conditioned cultural psyche.Ideally,an Enlightened being would have far greater capacity & willingness to look at their own conceptual mind & revise its concepts when they are shown to be inconsistent.But thats no guarantee that they will feel inclined to do so.Isolated bt a theocratic system ,their Enlightenment may not have had the chance to permeate human interrelatedness yet.

 

"All the great liberated individuals I have known had cultural biases that markedly influenced their perception or behaviour.Sometimes I felt these biases might interfere with their activities as teachers.

It is alsotrue,however,that their relationship with their biases was different from the relationship of the average person in that culture to those biases.One sensed much less of a grasping or holding of these biases,or a defensiveness about them.They were influenced by these biases,the biases were there,but they were held much more lightly."-OPEN MIND,DISCRIMINATING MIND.Charles Tart,p284.

 

The question then becomes one of the Dalai Lamas personal freedom from the system that has created him.

 

Anyhow,even if you end up disagreeing with the contentions of the authors here,reading this one pretty much gives all the current criticisms that are being thrown at the Vajrayana,valid or otherwise.Its nice to get a single source on a debate which does seem to me to be heating up.

 

I myself have nevermet the Dalai lama,& oddly enough I am almost glad,as from numerous testimonies,this guy seems to have some serious charisma happening.I know how much that quality has dazzled me in smaller amounts from other yogic Adepti.The idea of trying to keep a clear head in this Rinpoche's presence sounds EXTREMELY challenging.

 

Regards,Cloud

Edited September 6, 2006 by cloud recluse

[rex]

Anyhow,even if you end up disagreeing with the contentions of the authors here,reading this one pretty much gives all the current criticisms that are being thrown at the Vajrayana,valid or otherwise.Its nice to get a single source on a debate which does seem to me to be heating up.

 

Hi Cloud,

Well this is interesting! Do you know of any other sources and the circles in which this seems to be a hot topic?

Best,

Rex

[cloud recluse]

Hi Cloud,

Well this is interesting! Do you know of any other sources and the circles in which this seems to be a hot topic?

Best,

Rex

 

Rex,you will have to be patient with me here,coz Im going to be a bit vague on the details.

 

Personally,Ive had quite a few discussions with acquaintances over the years about thhe political position of the DL,& its relationship to his status as a religious figurehead.I think there were some news items around Christmas/New Year querying whether or not he would allow a real democracy,whether he would ever permit a Tibetan seperation of Church & State.And then theres the exposes mentioned in SHADOW of the sexual exploitation in the Vajrayana theocracy.

 

Ive been hearing these things as sperate topics for a while,but SHADOW puts them all in the context of the Vajrayana system,depicting them not so much as typical human failings,but as the logical outcome of the Vajrayana theocracy!Its religious vision requires all these behaviours of its practitioners!

 

Unfortunately,I havent seen a single forum that unites these topics yet,though I think thats whats being proposed in the 'Annex" of the SHADOW document I linked in my last post (I should actually go back & reread the thing I suppose ).But then I havent really been looking lately(Its busy being A Cloud Recluse )

 

So its lots of snippets here & there,but they seem to be accumulating,& I imagine more people will start making more connections,Thus,I think things are heating up.

 

Thats why I like SHADOW,it has a whole pile of "connected snippets" right there.So its a great place to start.History,Politics,Yogic symbolism,the lot!

 

Does any body actually know of any forums addressing all this,Has anyone else read SHADOW before,or heard it critiqued perhaps?

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Mandrake]

[Pero]

I agree with Mandrake.

Nazis have also crossed my mind. As this looks like propaganda they would use, only against the Jews...

I`m pretty sure these were some Christian writers with an agenda against Buddhism. Comparing Islam with Buddhism..... They also show misunderstanding of Buddhist teachings, which even I can see, even though I don`t have any extensive knowledge of it. Perhaps it would be better to say twisting of the teachings, they find and show things and interpret them in a way that suits them.

It`s almost like if you sent some taoist or whatever guy to look into Christian religion. What would he find? Drinking the blood of Christ and eating his body. Very civilized indeed he would think....

 

And what`s up with this:

 

"In Tibetan Buddhism we have an archaic, magic-based religious system, which has remained to a large extent untouched by the fundamentals of the Western Enlightenment."

 

Helloooo. Last time I checked Tibet wasn`t in the west. Imposing views maybe? Also, they obviously have something against magic...

 

I`m sure some of the things they are saying could be right. After all, it`s an organized religion, and when was everything all right in organised religions? Never, I think.

However most of it I believe is BS. Just Christian propaganda. Jelauosy I imagine. As well as lack of faith ha ha ha.

[rex]

Hi Cloud,

 

The Tibetans are no better or no worse than everyone else so their history like everyone elses' has contradictions. The inherent contradiction of a theocracy is that government affairs and spiritual concerns don't always tally especially when power, money and influence are at stake. I think the Dalai Lama is on record as stating that the monasteries did, though not as a matter of course, abuse their power in the past. The contradiction in modern secular democracies is that influential political parties can have the religious right as confidants and mentors.

 

It would be interesting to determine the sources of these accumulating snippets to see if they come from concerned vajrayana whistle blowers who have discovered a hitherto hidden agenda or from uninformed outsiders with their own axe to grind.

 

Personally I find Trimondi's writing sensationally alarmist. The tantric vows that vajrayana initiates take on bear absolutely no resemblance to a purported license to abuse.

 

Best,

Rex

[cloud recluse]

Rex,Pero & Mandrake.

Have you guys actually read the thing ?

 

Not an encouraging proposition I agree.Its not a small peice of work.

 

Im all up for a good gouging on this thing if its facts are incorrect,by all means get stuck into it.But so far only Mandrake has made a relevant comment about the name of Buddhas mum (I have yet to go back & check that one myself.Mandrake,could you possibly give me the page number on that one.Thanx).

 

For me,the Vajrayana is not a sacred cow immune from criticism & neither is the Dalai Lamas theocracy.But if the criticisms here are inaccurate,I would very much like that pointed out to me.

 

But just saying "Anyone who makes these claims is probably a Christian/Nazi"..etc is not an actual argument!

 

Where are the inaccuracies in their depiction of the Vajrayana? Please be specific. I mean,its not just a question of the invitable corruption of ANY theocracy,or of the "old -fashioned" homophobic & sexist statements of the DL.The contention here is that the Vajrayana system itself is more than questionable.

 

Anyhow, Rex,,I found a site with some interesting links.The top part of the page is in French,but the bit that looks promising is in English.Bit I havent really had time to hunt down much else.I dont know whose site this is,Im just putting it here for the convenience of its links.

 

 

To any body interested,Im looking for critiques that are a bit more than "Dont be ridicoulous,the vajrayana is obviously great & dissenters are obviously wicked"

Edited September 7, 2006 by cloud recluse

[cloud recluse]

How the fuck do I make the link function work properly.it worked before,but I cant seem to do it this time!!Help.

[cloud recluse]

 

 

"In Tibetan Buddhism we have an archaic, magic-based religious system, which has remained to a large extent untouched by the fundamentals of the Western Enlightenment."

 

Helloooo. Last time I checked Tibet wasn`t in the west. Imposing views maybe? Also, they obviously have something against magic...

 

 

 

The point here is that the DL constantly promotes himself as an advocate of democracy,equality & political integrity.If hes really pushing a medieval theocratic agenda instead,it doesnt look too good.

 

And no,I dont think theyre against magic,just against an oppresive medieval system driven by dodgy oracles & extemerly misogynistic interptetations of yoga.And Im perfectly happy for that valuing of liberty to be advocated.

[cloud recluse]

 

 

Posting a link would somehow be the definitive blow to vajrayana?

Would you go to a Neo Nazi for historical info on the holocaust? Go to the source instead.

 

No,posting a link may actually get some intelligent debate going.If,for whatever reason,the Vajrayana is of interest to someone,I assume (perhaps foolishly) that they would want all sides of the story. I thought this document would be a good start as it contains the Sources for all this.

 

If you read the thing,or even just the bibliography,there is no lack of "Source" here whatsoever. However,if by going to the source you mean onlly listening to the Tibetan theocracies side of things,then your probably not that interested in the topic.

 

This is my point.Regardless of the Trimondis motive,there is alot of 'source' here.

Now,if you can show specific misrepresentations & inaccuracies ,then I am definetly interested

 

Regards,Cloud

 

 

 

It would be interesting to determine the sources of these accumulating snippets to see if they come from concerned vajrayana whistle blowers who have discovered a hitherto hidden agenda or from uninformed outsiders with their own axe to grind.

 

Rex,I couldnt agree more

[Pero]

Buddhism (Tibetan as well) basically consists of sutra, tantra and dzogchen. Paths of renounciation, transformation and realization. What DL is teaching mostly IMO, is sutra. Moral codes, ethics and such. All paths are connected in a way, however they differ very much as well. While in sutrayana one must obey certain rules, codes of conduct etc., these same things may appear to be violated by tantra and dzogchen.

 

I forgot where I was going with this, as I am in a hurry... Will post more later.

 

And yes, I didn`t read the whole thing as I don`t think it would give any benefit or that it`s neccessary. Reading the first part and the annex is quite enough for me to see that there is an agenda of some sorts, and I don`t feel that what is written is written from any "higher" understanding...

 

Also Cloud, don`t forget, we`re not all crusaders like you.

[cloud recluse]

 

 

Also Cloud, don`t forget, we`re not all crusaders like you.

Ah,well,I admit you got me there Pero

[Wayfarer64]

Ah,well,I admit you got me there Pero

 

I've been thinking about this thread and scanned the entire piece again to get a better read and It surely seems to be skewed and not taking the changes already having taken place for the Tibetans -as a culture and society amid great upheaval and a diaspora forcing them on the road through a brutal oppression

So they are a few genaretions away from the olden ways at least in terms of settled and accepted culture...

Sticking with what I've seen and felt for now.... that the old patriarchy has been uprooted to some degree is a very good thing and I believe it will remain an out-dated way in the future of Tibetan Buddhist teachings.

Maybe praying for the poor bastards rather than attacking what is left of a once very interesting -if mightily flawed -culture, would bring those writers more merit!.

Yet - If I ever find believable evidence of some of these charges I will change my tune "toot-sweet"...

I abhor subjegation in any form for any reason. Be it from a Guru getting-over on followers , governments doing whatever they do, or even parents forcing demands on their young-uns....Authoritarianism pisses me off.

I still say "Free Tibet!". let them go through their changes to "modernize" in whatever peace that they may yet be able to find.... With the Dalai Lama as their leader.

STILL - The charges made are pretty heinous and I will keep digging to see if any water is held by them...when I get a chance!

[cloud recluse]

I've been thinking about this thread and scanned the entire piece again to get a better read and It surely seems to be skewed and not taking the changes already having taken place for the Tibetans ....

STILL - The charges made are pretty heinous and I will keep digging to see if any water is held by them...when I get a chance!

Yes! THATS the spririt! Thats what I wanna hear! someone actually willing to look through Galileos telescope

 

If it turns out to be crap,I wanna know.If its valid,I wanna know.Or anywhere in between.So,to anyone reading this:

 

Like I said above SHADOW pretty much collectes every criticism around.Some of these I had allready encountered from other sources.Sexual abuse & murder among the Rinpoche's,the Dalai Lamas refusal of democracy,extreme homophobia,the violent nature of Tibetan society,the glorification of rape in the Padmasambhava & Drukpa Kunley myths,the violent persecution & murder of the Bonpo by the Vajrayana,A LOT OF this I had allready encountered from seperate sources.BUT IS IT ACCURATE???

 

The reason SHADOW is a good starting place is it not only contains all these sources,but it also goes into more detail about about the violently misogyninstic themes of Tibetan Tantra. I mean,June Campbell,& now others,have allready exposed the sexually abusive practices of the so-called celibate Rinpoches,& Campbell herself makes some interesting suggestions about the origins of that ( though its not so suprising when the Vajrayana mythical founder is extolled as a rapist).

 

But SHADOWS details the theme of sacrificing the female in the actual yogic practices themselves,in detail.Then theres the question of the Shambhalah myth,with its Apocalypse politics ( I find that idea PARTICULARLY intruiging,as one of my pet theories is that apocalyptic concepts are attempts by the ego to solidify a final fixed condition,essentially a refusal of mystery,thus appropriating the spiritual process back into an egoic goal).IF this is correct,its not just the bad habits of a medieval patriarchy,ITS FUNDAMENTAL TO THE SYSTEM ITSELF!!

 

This is the value of the document.Yes it does take some reading,& I have NO problem if someone simply doesnt have the time.But if one does,& the Vajrayana is of interest to you,it seems logical to me to carry out this kind of research

 

Now if Ive offended anybody AT ANY POINT in discussing this I am genuinely sorry.But I dont believe in sacred cows,& repeated consistent claims,claims made INDEPENDENTLY of the "Trimondis",are claims worth investigating,even if its only to refute them!

 

So Im all up for a FAIR discussion on the more dubious aspects of Buddhism,BIT IM NOT SIMPLISTICALLY ANTI-BUDDHIST ! But all 'gurus' & spiritual authority structures MUST be tested,tested,tested!! Their capacity for abuse,for damaging us on a level of deep vulnerability MUST be borne in mind,& so I demand that the preachers on Enlightement show a level of integrity above & beyond the average.

 

Hmmm,Im getting worked up here & this is getting overly lengthy.Sorry

 

Regards,Cloud

[Pero]

This is the value of the document.Yes it does take some reading,& I have NO problem if someone simply doesnt have the time.But if one does,& the Vajrayana is of interest to you,it seems logical to me to carry out this kind of research

 

We`ll just disagree on the value.

I don`t see why it would seem logical to research this. I have interest in Vajrayana, but I don`t have much of an interest to research this.

 

 

Now if Ive offended anybody AT ANY POINT in discussing this I am genuinely sorry.But I dont believe in sacred cows,& repeated consistent claims,claims made INDEPENDENTLY of the "Trimondis",are claims worth investigating,even if its only to refute them!

 

I don`t think you wrote anything offensive. At least I didn`t see it. The way of investagating is for me to experience it, not just listening to what other people claim. Buddha said something like don`t believe anything you are told, try everything out for yourself. Of course, in this case though, if it is true what they are saying, I would be brainwashed or something and would find it hard to get out. So it could be a bad approach.

 

 

Wayfarer, I don`t see why you would have to re-evaluate your expirience with the DL...

 

Off to lunch now...

[Wayfarer64]

I'm reavaluating just because I can. I am secure in my sense of self enogh to take a look at what has brought me here. As I wrote, I am pretty damn sure about this issue, but I am willing to jar the assumption of such a profound experience's validity... into non-complacency and delve into what makes the Dalai Lama such a force in the world and what direction that force is meant to take us.

If the doctrine rings false and his holiness is being used to bring a seemingly dark aspect of what would be to my mind a twisted aspect of Buddhist thinking to the fore, I want to know for myself.

I know in my heart that the compassionate nature of the experience I shared with the Dalai Lama was the strongest aspect I felt at that time and so I may remain unchanged by the quest to learn just what amount of faith and energy the Dalai Lama puts into furthering the anscient mythical motivations and how much he has transended those and found a "more palatible " calling for his yogic/tantric powers. I may never figure out how to find these things out to a certainty beyond my original certainty, but rest assured that paper does not undermine my original certainty.

The Dalai Lama has a scientific curiosity that he speaks of often and his grounding in logical arguement and deliberation that is required of all Tibetan monks would also support this line of questioning in itself...

I am not now a "follower" of the Dalai Lama in anything more than a tacit support and threads like this etc....

He bestowed a profound moment of shared humanity with me (and several others at the same time it would seem). I will never lose that connection to his transcendent abilities and gift.

My scepticism is not new about the system he represents-And not with his affirmations of compassionate living. I realize that he was taken as a child and indoctrinated into a secluded society that had many obvious wierd qualities that could have been meant to use him as the smiley-face figure-head of a questionable doctrine and power-structure left over from centuries of feudal oppression. As was the norm world-wide and has changed most places as stated above...

The old ways are being left behind in most societies as we become more globalized, much of that loss is very sad to me, some less so, some happily weeping for joy.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[GrandTrinity]

This is all some crazy stuff. I wish CLoud Recluse, you lived in America so we could talk on the phone. This is all too much to swallow. If anyone has a grasp on whats going on here, and wants to explain it over the phone, lets do that, I live in Connecticut.

Peace

[cloud recluse]

This is all some crazy stuff. I wish CLoud Recluse, you lived in America so we could talk on the phone. This is all too much to swallow. If anyone has a grasp on whats going on here, and wants to explain it over the phone, lets do that, I live in Connecticut.

Peace

 

I admit,that would be preferable Still,If you wanted,I could pick it apart topic by topic,& present the references independent of the Trimondis.Sort of a "Vajrayana debate" thread or something?

 

Regards,Cloud.

[GrandTrinity]

I say go for it, although this shit gave me nightmares the other night! Psychic defenses in full force!

[cloud recluse]

I say go for it, although this shit gave me nightmares the other night! Psychic defenses in full force!

 

Ummm,I dont want to sound morbid,but what kind of nightmares ?

[Mandrake]

Well well, I don't know why I care, but if you are given document A, you may as well read B.

The best thing I could do would to write an essay adressing all the points in the Trimondi-doc', one after another.

 

Until then check out for example this site (link to kalachakra writings):

http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/index.html

 

Has extensive information of Buddhism, especially Tibetan, and much material on Kalachakra including material on common misconceptions.

 

By all means, do your due diligence, and btw, vajrayana isn't only KC.

 

Mandrake

 

Excerpt:

 

"One of the more perplexing and most easily misunderstood aspects of tantra and its ritual is its imagery suggestive of sex, devil-worship, and violence. Buddha-figures often appear as couples in union and many have demonic faces, stand enveloped in flames, and trample helpless beings beneath their feet. Seeing these images horrified early Western scholars, who often came from Victorian or missionary backgrounds.

 

Even nowadays, some people believe that the couples signify the sexual exploitation of women. Others imagine that couples in union represent the transcendence of all duality to the point that there is no difference between "good" and "bad." They think that, consequently, tantra is immoral and not only sanctions, but even encourages usage of alcohol and drugs, and hedonistic, criminal, and even despotic behavior.

 

Some go as far as wildly accusing well-respected tantric masters of plotting to take over the world and that the Kalachakra teachings were the source of Nazi ideology and are the inspiration for modern Neo-Nazi cults. Curiously, such paranoid accusations parallel the Nazi obsession with blaming the Jews for all the evils of the world. Extreme caution is required."

[cloud recluse]

The only problem here is that it is more than just a misunderstanding of a symbolic system .We are also talking about ACTUAL PRACTICE. Pertinent here is the 'celibate' Kalu Rinpoches ex-tantric consort June Campbell. Her analysis (something totally independent of the Trimondis) of the Vajrayana points out that the sexual exploitation is not just an accident,its implicit in the system.

 

I will say again what Ive said above,I posted the trimondi link as a single source,I wasnt citing it in itself as a definitive authority.I actually encountered June Campbells material prior to the Trimondis.If you want something a bit shorter to read,try her TRAVELLER IN SPACE. what I found interesting in the Trimondis was that they placed her observations & experience in the context of a religious vision of the patriarchial subjugation of non-believers,a typical product of ANY theocracy east or west.Definetely a hypothesis worth investigating!

 

Has anybody a refutation of Campbell specifically?

 

I cant comment on the link Mandrake has provided yet as I havent time to read it,but it IS the kind of thing I was hoping for The case for misogyny built into the Vajrayana is allready strong,but-outside of the Trimondis-Ive not yet had time to look at the Shambhallah myth that the Trimondis allege is the motivating force behind the Kalachakra.So when I get the time,its my next port of call.

 

So,are the misogynistic practices in turn patching into a broader vision?The Trimondis make compelling claims,backed up by a LOT of material.Does it stand up to scrutiny?

Edited September 13, 2006 by cloud recluse

[Pero]

I say go for it, although this shit gave me nightmares the other night! Psychic defenses in full force!

 

I`m interested as well, what kind of nightmares?

 

 

Curiously, such paranoid accusations parallel the Nazi obsession with blaming the Jews for all the evils of the world.

 

Funny, that`s what I said as well.

 

 

 

Cloud, what misogynistic practices?