32 signs of a Buddha

[GrandTrinity]

Nightmares? Well I had done deep meditations of the trinity with wisdom, compassion and buddha power. So seeing more about the shadow side of this, obviously, made some weird nightmares. There is nothing I remember specifically, in the dreams, or want to!

 

I found out about a conference a few days ago, called "LONGEVITY AND OPTIMAL HEALTH

Integrating Eastern and Western Perspectives" hoste dby the Tibet House (Thurman...) and Columbia Universities Med School.

 

I decided to attend it, since it would be nice for the resume/help get into good grad program/could make good contacts there.

 

What should I be aware of before I go? Im paying like $700 for this three day program! (Well, more like my parents are.) So I know one thing: they are making bank!!!!!!!!

 

Im real intersted in this Kalachakra, Sexual Vampirism/rituals, and even Nazi connections.

 

But really, I am just interested in longevity and world peace.

 

Is anyone here familiar with this book or Julius Evola's stuff?

[cloud recluse]

.. in this case though, if it is true what they are saying, I would be brainwashed or something and would find it hard to get out. So it could be a bad approach.

 

 

Even if the Vajrayana establishment IS driven by a particular theocratic agenda ,it doesnt necessarily follow that its all a brainwashing cult,or that any degree of involvement is automatically dangerous.Certainly,there are problematic aspects to it to say the least,but thats not surprising. I mean ,what do you expect.Its a THEOCRACY,a feudal political institutuion designed to hold onto political power,ITS A FUCKING GOVERMENT!!! That it should become a little twisted was never going to be surprising.

 

So its not a case of fearing the thing,but one simply bears in mind its political agendas when investigating it.Im not saying theres no value in the vast expanse of practices that one could stick under the label 'Tibetan Buddhism',Ive certainly derived value & inspiration from it myself.

 

BUT ,when ostensibly celibate men set up an authoritarian heirarchy giving them enforced political power over others,things get problematic.I mean,doesnt anyone here wonder about that.They basically became the medieval Catholic Church!!

[cloud recluse]

 

Cloud, what misogynistic practices?

 

If your wary of the Trimondis,or just dont have the time,check out June Campbells TRAVELLER IN SPACE (though it may have been reissued under a new title,Im not sure).

 

Basically,the female Tantric consort,while glorofied in the seduction phase by the Rinpoche,is pretty much dumped afterwards,with curse backed threats about what will happen if she reveals that the 'celibate' Rinpoches actually seduces & fucks his female students.

 

This behaviour is justified by the image of women in the 3 vehicles.In Hinayana,shes simply a dirty temptress that pollutes the male mind,dragging it away from the path of desirelessness.In the Mahayana,shes still a dirty creature,but can recover from her regrettable femininity if she renounces her fallen condition 7 becomes 'energetically male' in her subtle body.In the Vajrayana,she is the FeminineWorld-energy,reminiscent of the Hindu Shakti,BUT with a crucial difference.This is seen as a regettable state of affairs that must be rectified.If the Rinpoche is clever & cunning,he can catch this power with charm & seduction.woo her with praise,teach her submission,drain her of that vital energy & convert it into Male Buddha energy,then abandon the 'vessel'.

 

So,temptress in the Hinayana,regrettable mistake in the Mahayana,& disposeable power source in the Vajrayana.Bit then,what would you expect from celibate male monks trying to retain political power.

Campbelss ananlysis goes fairly deep on this,looking at the gender roles in the iconography,the actual practices & the institutionalised lying that surrounds them,all the things typical of a Big Male Church.

 

And the Tibetan theocracy is nothing if not a Big Male Church

 

But she also looks at the image of women that your typical monk would have as aresult of their lifestyle.Traumatically seperated from their mothers at a VERY young age,women are allready ambivalent figures to them.Then taught that women are an evil sexual distraction,while being raised by men in a hyper-partiarchial environment.Finally,initiated into Vajrayana,it becomes OK to fuck women,as long as you dont become attached to them,because now they are a necessary power source to complete ones own transformation into a representative of the monastic elite.

 

But dont tell the peasants,they think we are desireless ,& we live off their labour.

 

If I can draw inspiration from StFrancis of Assissi & The Cloud Of Unknowing,& can draw it from Tibetan Buddhism. But a big part of that is a Partiarchail Theocracy of celibate men,& that has NEVER been a pallatible proposition for those under its thumb.

[cloud recluse]

 

 

What should I be aware of before I go? Im paying like $700 for this three day program! (Well, more like my parents are.) So I know one thing: they are making bank!!!!!!!!

 

 

The only thing I would say is dont be dazzled.This gig may turn out well worth your time & money,but dont abandon your skepticism.Perhaps take a glance at Chapter 16 in Part of SHADOW ,entitled 'Tactics,Strategies,Forgeries,Illusions".It has a short section on the Vajrayana-Western Science dialogoue that might be worth considering.

 

The info at this program could well be instructive,just bear in mind the self-promotion of the Tibetan Theocracy,and the eagerness of many Westerners to lap it up

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Mandrake]

From Wikipedia:

 

"Additionally, in the draft constitution of future Tibet, the institution of the Dalai Lama can be revoked at any time by a democratic majority vote of two-thirds of the Assembly. It is also worth mentioning that the 14th Dalai Lama has stated "Personally, I feel the institution of the Dalai Lama has served its purpose." "

 

And remember that the four main schools of Tibetan buddhism have their own leaders, so the DL isn't a supreme dictator or something.

 

Cloud,

about June Campbell, I read some excerpts some years ago, so it isn't very fresh in my memory.

But the thing here I find obvious is her own ignorance. If she comes deer-eyed and jumps into everything without checking and being cautious off course she will be taken advantage of.

We ARE responsible for our actions. It isn't as if she was locked up in a dark cellar where some outlander raped her.

 

If she had really studied eastern philosophy and buddhism, she would for example have read "Personal Instructions from My Totally Excellent Teacher" by Peltrul clearly discussing the risks with teachers and the careful responsible response needed. Further on, in these traditions (including the Indian), traditionally you should examine your would be guru meticuously for TWELVE years before accepting him/her as such. (The 12 years stated by DL as well, if you're interested)

 

If I have been singing in the catholic quoir for several years, am devout and learned, and then the priest suddenly wants to stick his dick inside me in the confession booth, well duh: 1. I don't 2. I don't believe all priests use the CB as their red light chamber.

[Mandrake]

Another thing,

there are people with negative experiences, and because of inherent bias, their accounts get more noticed.

 

However, I know quite a few of homosexuals_and_women that have been thoroughly loved and accepted in their Tibetan Buddhist practised and encounters. EVEN in such practices as sexual.

 

And more, at this point, there are lots of WESTERN ordained and experienced tibetan monks AND nuns. Go and read their version.

 

The way the Trimondi's handle quotations and references (very few citations from buddhist texts), the argumentation, and how they have limited their sources of information boggs this document down.

Again, it is NOT an academic paper.

 

Another thing,

there are people with negative experiences, and because of inherent bias, their accounts get more noticed.

 

However, I know quite a few of homosexuals_and_women that have been thoroughly loved and accepted in their Tibetan Buddhist practised and encounters. EVEN in such practices as sexual.

 

And more, at this point, there are lots of WESTERN ordained and experienced tibetan monks AND nuns. Go and read their version.

 

The way the Trimondi's handle quotations and references (very few citations from buddhist texts), the argumentation, and how they have limited their sources of information boggs this document down.

Again, it is NOT an academic paper.

[cloud recluse]

 

 

Cloud,

about June Campbell, I read some excerpts some years ago, so it isn't very fresh in my memory.

But the thing here I find obvious is her own ignorance. If she comes deer-eyed and jumps into everything without checking and being cautious off course she will be taken advantage of.

We ARE responsible for our actions. It isn't as if she was locked up in a dark cellar where some outlander raped her.

 

If she had really studied eastern philosophy and buddhism, she would for example have read "Personal Instructions from My Totally Excellent Teacher" by Peltrul clearly discussing the risks with teachers and the careful responsible response needed. Further on, in these traditions (including the Indian), traditionally you should examine your would be guru meticuously for TWELVE years before accepting him/her as such. (The 12 years stated by DL as well, if you're interested)

 

 

Its not a case of what the books say,bit of what actually happens,particularly if its a case on an institutionally supported practice required by the religion.

 

If you are going to refute Campbell,please do so with actual examples.Thats what Im looking for here,actual information.I would strongly recommend her work,as its not simply her own experience,but her observations on how the institutions ACTUALLY work,not just what the official rulebooks say.Regardless of whether or not she was foolish,my conceren is whether or not the practice is prevalent & sactioned.

[Wayfarer64]

I think it would be pretty impertinant to refute someone's stated experience unless there were some axe-grinding alterior motive that could be shown. The case histories of holy men and priests being horny devils that abuse the trust of those who look to them for guidence is long, sorded and rampant in just about every religion, cult or spiritual path I have heard of. And as Sean has pointed out the abuse and harm of teachers by students is a real problem as well.

The holiest ground is still trod on by men, who are what we all are. Horn-dogs one and all! Short of castration, and old age there are few techniques that work 24/7 and fewer practicioners who can keep it in their pants for very long anyway without the help of medications or herbal inhibitors. Nature is more powerful than human will often enough to keep us humble and honest. We want to have sex. A Lot. These urges are surely observable and tamable but they are very hard to extinguish.

That a supposed teacher of any philosophy, class or course of study would use that position of power to get laid and worse - make the human-being they so seduce sexually, a "disposible" sexual object and thus also undermine their own self-respect and direction as a Spiritual being is totally reprehensible.

But that being said, if the system this happens in -like the Catholic church or the Ragneesh cult allows this sort of behavior -even supports it with cover-ups and lies...The system is the prblem.

I do not think a system need remain stagnent and be held accountable for past practices if these are allowed to be exposed and then excorsized from the accepted norm.

So far on this thread, we haven't gotten a very concrete look at the current state of "affairs" , which I think would be of some help at this point. Also we sure have drifted far off the 32 signs topic...I think I for one am also confusing the Bagwan Bashing thread with this thread in my mind and additions -sorry 'bout that!

Edited September 14, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[Mandrake]

Padmasambhava stated, "Male or female, there is no great difference.

But if she develops the mind bent on enlightenment,

to be a woman is better."

Mother of Knowledge, p. 102 (oral translation by Tarthang Tulku)

 

If you've put your determination to prove tibetan buddhism is misogynist and female deriding/hostile, ok, carry on, believe what you want.

 

But, For Gods sake, there are more people than June Campbell and the Trimondis. Ignore the plethora of realized FEMALE practicioners, ignore the SAMAYA, the scriptures, ignore that over the past thirteen centuries THOUSANDS of monks have been cast out of the monasteries for having affairs with the local girls, ignore all the mass of experience of ordained westerners - male, female, homosexuals - that speak against June and Trimondis. I could go into detail, but to what avail?

 

Believe what you want.

 

To any reader who truelly is interested in Vajrayana and tibetan buddhism:

Go to an appropriate forum dealing with TB/Buddhism and speak with the people there, and out of respect, do a little bit reading and thinking, get the symbolism and practices explained for you. Best of all, meet up with a live practicioner.

 

Cloud Recluse, the thing that you wrote/quoted about Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana, is frankly, silly.

The reason that I, and probably others see no point and interest in countering these hypothesises, is the same reason that Christians (been one) wouldn't be interested in the challenge to refute that the pope is Satan, the pentecostal are reptiles, and the holy ghost is alien energy trying to turn the earth into a marshmallow.

 

Nobody is protecting the infallibacy of institutions, this matter should be clear. Also, that high practicioners are also found outside the monastic community in Tibet.

 

Buddhism, Daoism, philosophies in East and West - for all means, but now I'm off here.

Back to my studies.

 

M

[thelerner]

Thanks Mandrake. I've had several experiences on the Healing Tao web site, defending Judiasm against claims that pretty much follow - 'all evil things can be traced to the Jews', or damn close to it. On one level its insulting to have to defend yourself or religion against charges that are ludicrous.

 

There is the dimension of 'quoting rascist things that people of your group have said". First, often the quotes are made up bull shit. Two, its a long life, and at times people will speak in anger and say stupid things that are not indicative of there beliefs or way they've led there lives.

 

Likewise you have a big enough religious book, and there is bound to be foolishness somewhere in it. Certainly there is (IMHO) in Judiasm. But if you look closely within the tradition, it is interpreted in a softer, much more civilized fashion. I.E. the 3 dozen or so death penalties in the old testament are reinterpreted by someone like Akiba known as the greatest of all Rabbis in his saying, "If one person in 100 years is put to death, that is too much".

 

Sometimes all you can do is say, "I am a Whatever. I don't believe in that. Its not taught in our schools. The Whatevers I know are all against it."

 

When you ask haters if they know anyone who is a Whatever, inevitably they say, "Yes, but he's not a Real Whatever."

 

When we get the balls rolling against the Tibetans, or Saudi's or even the Bushes, its nice to have someone to give another side and give us a little much needed information.

 

Michael

 

That said, being perfectly nice is boring,

[Wayfarer64]

Thanks Mandrake. I've had several experiences on the Healing Tao web site, defending Judiasm against claims that pretty much follow - 'all evil things can be traced to the Jews', or damn close to it. On one level its insulting to have to defend yourself or religion against charges that are ludicrous.

 

There is the dimension of 'quoting rascist things that people of your group have said". First, often the quotes are made up bull shit. Two, its a long life, and at times people will speak in anger and say stupid things that are not indicative of there beliefs or way they've led there lives.

 

Likewise you have a big enough religious book, and there is bound to be foolishness somewhere in it. Certainly there is (IMHO) in Judiasm. But if you look closely within the tradition, it is interpreted in a softer, much more civilized fashion. I.E. the 3 dozen or so death penalties in the old testament are reinterpreted by someone like Akiba known as the greatest of all Rabbis in his saying, "If one person in 100 years is put to death, that is too much".

 

Sometimes all you can do is say, "I am a Whatever. I don't believe in that. Its not taught in our schools. The Whatevers I know are all against it."

 

When you ask haters if they know anyone who is a Whatever, inevitably they say, "Yes, but he's not a Real Whatever."

 

When we get the balls rolling against the Tibetans, or Saudi's or even the Bushes, its nice to have someone to give another side and give us a little much needed information.

 

Michael

 

That said, being perfectly nice is boring,

 

 

I keep getting too much copy in pulling quotes! sorry for the wasted space&time-...

Anyway-

I've been telling people that I am "An Earthling" for many years, if they keep digging I'll tell 'em I'm a panthiest, that I have found something of value in every philosophy I have come across...

But of course I have my druthers too, as I've expressed ad nausium already! But the real haters are best just left alone, they are going the way of the dinosaur and we should let them go...

[cloud recluse]

 

If you've put your determination to prove tibetan buddhism is misogynist and female deriding/hostile, ok, carry on, believe what you want.

 

But, For Gods sake, there are more people than June Campbell and the Trimondis. Ignore the plethora of realized FEMALE practicioners, ignore the SAMAYA, the scriptures, ignore that over the past thirteen centuries THOUSANDS of monks have been cast out of the monasteries for having affairs with the local girls, ignore all the mass of experience of ordained westerners - male, female, homosexuals - that speak against June and Trimondis. I could go into detail, but to what avail?

 

Let me clear up a misundertsanding

 

Im not "determined" to prove it one thing or another!

An interesting & quite feasible charged was raised against a patriarchial monastic theocracy,quite an intruiging charge. So Id thought I would throw it out there,see if it was a well known/infamous one or not,& see what people knew about it.As I said in some of my first references to SHADOW,"Has anybody seen a critique of this" or words to that effect.

 

To this end ,I am interested in reading actual refutations,disconfirming facts,from those in the know,if such material exists. BUT,simply dismissing the arguments in question instead of counterarguing them is of no use to anyone except the True Believers.

 

If your not interested in explaing WHY the charge is invalid,Fine.Im not expecting anyone to be so.Its simply my own interest,so I have no problem with that.

 

I AM NOT IGNORING anyones experience,but if you cite these things,then dont provide details,I would wonder why bothered entering the debate.

 

As I said in one of my firsts posts here,I AM interested in the other side of the story.That was the whole point.BUT .."Its wrong coz I say so & so does everyone else", thats not really a valid point

 

Point me in the direction that actually engages & refutes Campbell & I will be more than happy,I will be quite delighted in fact ( or any of the other critics that the Trimondis cite for that matter).But DONT treat Tibetan Buddhism,or anything else for that matter,as a sacred cow.Thats useless.

 

My only bias here,as I said in a previous post,is that I do admittedly have a wariness of ANY Big Male Churches & the patterns they are inclined to.But I am perfectly aware that that in itself doesnt constitute an argument.

 

Now,if I have upset anyone with any of this ,I do apologize,& Im not attacking "The Tibetans" nor advocating that anyone do so.But by the same token,someone who says to me" I know why these claims are wrong,but I couldnt be bothered mustering the evidence" is just a Great Big Tease

 

Im sorry,but I dont believe that any belief system is beyond question,nor do I believe it is disrespectful to do so.Test them all,Always.

I DONT KNOW if the SHADOW accusations are true or not,but the basic idea is not particularly unfeasible,so id like to investigate it.

 

Regards,Cloud.

Edited September 16, 2006 by cloud recluse

[thelerner]

Didn't mean to lump you in with 'haters'. Its not political correctness we're after. Its not even about THE TRUTH, since we can't handle the TRUTH. For me its about looking at a situation from all sides.

 

One thing I've learned here, other then Buddhas are supposed to have recessed gonads is that "Don't blindly believe what anybody says. Even if its the Buddhas himself. Think it out, test it out, feel it out with heart and brain."

 

Michael

[cloud recluse]

Didn't mean to lump you in with 'haters'. Its not political correctness we're after. Its not even about THE TRUTH, since we can't handle the TRUTH. For me its about looking at a situation from all sides.

 

One thing I've learned here, other then Buddhas are supposed to have recessed gonads is that "Don't blindly believe what anybody says. Even if its the Buddhas himself. Think it out, test it out, feel it out with heart and brain."

 

Michael

 

Thanks man. I was perhaps overeacting a bit to think that the "haters' bit was referring to me.sorry about that.I feel a bit silly now.

 

Regards,Cloud

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Cloud,

I'm sorry to see you feel as if yr taking a little "flack" for this thread. I believe you are only trying to get at the truth of the current direction of the once feudalistic Tibetan theocratic govt...The more I look at it the more I see the Tibetan leadership much too preoccupied with keeping thier people from being absorbed into the various cultures that the diaspora has driven them to. And - holding onto some of the land that was Tibet and maintaining a Tibetan sense of community in those areas. Those goals mean more than keeping worn-out parts of that community tick-tocking along.

 

Also, - If that does translate into trying to keep the old misogynistic ways intact they will not succeed, even IF that were their aim. (And I am sure some of the few living members of the old Tibetan power structure want that old structure to be restored ).

Still, I really believe that the Dalai Lama is much too aware of science and social science to back-slide in that direction when important matters of moving foreward are on his mind-

The new global world is here. There is little likelyhood of many old ways in any culture returning. Just as women can now travel the streets of Italian towns and cities as they could not a mere 25 years ago, the male domination of the world is slipping away -so slowly as to make any young and eager female pissed-off at the pace...Yet the way is clearing for equality to take shape and become the norm.

I for one am much more concerned with the state of Saudi Arabian misogyny dominating that society. They have real geo-political power, the Tibetans do not. As masters of Mecca and holders of extreme wealth that monarchy is pushing its weight around plenty more than the Tibetans are able to do. And they are protected from even the slightest critical scrutiny by the current US Prez's administration!

I worry about the abuse of real power over millions of Islamic women -not the grasping for lost power over tens of thousands of Tibetan women, with many of them now out in the world and out of the waning grasp of Tibetan misogyny.

[...]

don't forget that ultimately good/evil is nonsense, if that means anything to you. If you are dragged down into righteousness, you are dragged down into the realm of 'evil'.

 

I mean, I know these are just words... That as long as we are on this plane of existance, good/evil is clearly a force to be reckoned with...

 

but, mandrake, especially, sounded very offended in this writing. This is too bad, because notonly did he not heed what cloud recluse said in oneof his posts, but he is clearly not thinking in a detached, objective manner.

 

I think buddhism in all its forms is a piece ofshit religion that is not only inferior as a means to enlightenment, but BREEDS the kind of behavior that cloud is talking about through there method of rejection/celibacy etc. so fuck all the buddhists.

 

.

..

 

...

 

....

 

 

If you're too blind to see, that last paragraph was written to make a point.

[cloud recluse]

I for one am much more concerned with the state of Saudi Arabian misogyny dominating that society. They have real geo-political power, the Tibetans do not. As masters of Mecca and holders of extreme wealth that monarchy is pushing its weight around plenty more than the Tibetans are able to do. And they are protected from even the slightest critical scrutiny by the current US Prez's administration!

I worry about the abuse of real power over millions of Islamic women -not the grasping for lost power over tens of thousands of Tibetan women, with many of them now out in the world and out of the waning grasp of Tibetan misogyny.

 

Yeah,youve certainly got a pretty valid point there

 

But wouldnt it be fair to say that ,in yogic circles,Tibetan Buddhism is enormously popular & widespread,a very contemporary movement,& thus one worth getting all sides of the story on. I fully admit that it perhaps is not a particularly 'threatening' one to worry about in the larger scheme of things, but on the 'Spiritual Scene',isnt it still a fairly major player?

 

Or not?

 

Regards,Cloud

[Wayfarer64]

Yeah,youve certainly got a pretty valid point there

 

But wouldnt it be fair to say that ,in yogic circles,Tibetan Buddhism is enormously popular & widespread,a very contemporary movement,& thus one worth getting all sides of the story on. I fully admit that it perhaps is not a particularly 'threatening' one to worry about in the larger scheme of things, but on the 'Spiritual Scene',isnt it still a fairly major player?

 

Or not?

 

Regards,Cloud

 

Geez Cloud I thought we were on a roll alas- for once we diverge-

Sorry I have to disagree with ya here

MECCA! they run MECCA! They hold hands with the prez...Islam is a real up and comer Faith these days. I agree with you in OUR circle of seekers and philosophers the Tibetans swing a big dick as it were-(Please do not respond Ron J. et al- this quip is not a put-down! Just my own misogyny rearing its ugly punster head)...

I have an old bumper sticker that says "Question Authority".

I believe in that much more readily than I believe any supposed authority. I'm with ya in spirit.

BUT- my concern with the Saudis as a very scary power base goes way beyond my concern about the Tibetans trying to hold on to the vestages of a situation that has changed so much. As I wrote they have to hold their people together and giving power to the women is one way to do this - so they will wise up sooner than later. The Saudis have no such problems they just have to find new ideas from the Carlyle group on how to build more power with the billions of petro-bucks they have to squander... Their women don't have a chance in hell to gain any power soon or later.

[cloud recluse]

...Islam is a real up and comer Faith these days. I agree with you in OUR circle of seekers and philosophers the Tibetans swing a big dick as it were..

 

Um,thats all I was actually saying.So ,my understanding,we DO agree here.The impact of various forms of Islam IS of more consequence overall,but in "OUR" circles,the Tibetans are still a major player in terms of influence.

 

So,we agree,yeah? The whole Vajrayana thingy is perhaps only of concern to the yogically inclined in the course of their own spiritual practice,whereas the Islamic question is of political relevance to any world citizen.I think thats your point,& I agree totally

 

Of course,the Trimondis argue that Tibetan politics is driven by a Shambhallah apocalypse in which the Moslems,the "Mlecchas",are to be singled out for some special treatment .Now whether that is accurate remains to be seen,I havent had a chance to check out the Kalachakra site that Mandrake posted.And even if it is true,that doesnt necessarily mean it will translate into any significant political action.

 

Bit I think we are still on our 'roll' here

 

Regards,Cloud

[Wayfarer64]

YAY!

 

I am glad to hear there is no squall & we're still rolling along, Cloud!-

By the way apocolypse means revelation not world distruction, originally it was meant to be a good thing where and when "truth" would be revealed. I'm not sure when the meaning shifted (in Christian discourse anyway)... But special treatment does not sound like a good thing.

If Hell is meant for those of "false" docrines and for those of other faiths... and we all get singled out in the end game of each and every religion - then unless we keep faith with several belief systems we are all doomed...I just don't buy into these sorts of manipulations that seem meant to keep adherents "down on the farm" of their dotrines. It seems as if these dire warnings are psychological fencing to keep the faithful in line and are a tool more than an end in themselves...More of the taking advantage of followers syndrome we've touched on before...

Any promotion of meaningless fear- (fear-mongering) is an act of evil to my way of thinking. There are real dangers enough to worry about!

Yet, most religions do this - instill fear of hell and damnation and impurity and unwholesomeness and dire consequences if we indulge in proscribed behaviors or ignore rituals that support our faith's doctrines and operational base...(more tithing)

The holding onto power and tithing are a big part of all religious organization and distort a lot of what is wonderful and sacred in the teachings that all too often get forced to the background of what is taught, preached and driven into the minds of those listening.

As was my point with the twonewcargaragee anicdote...

So you have given many of us reason to pause and reflect on the direction of our own adherence to a vehicle of transcendence that may not be headed where we thought it was.

I for one thank you!

But in all fairness I do not think the Dalai Lama will allow the old ways to continue. I do have faith in his inner being to steer the system forward and greet change and an anti-misogynistic future with an open heart and mind. He is a modern man in many ways and has a stated adherence to scientific inquiry and a dispelling of myth and inequality. If the original intent of his system is being questioned here - I gotta think these questions and problems have entered his mind as well. There will be resistance to full equality and dispelling of myth and the acceptence of many new ways but I think the Tibetans are trying to adapt as well as hold on to old ways.

Whereas I think the Islamic power structure based in Saudi Arabia is feeling ever more powerful as they have the west jumping through hoops to somehow placate these despots so we can still have their oil.

Until we find a new/clean energy source we are stuck in the past on the karmic and artha levels.

I believe that the Dalai Lama has already been looking foreward and is a force for possitive change, even if the system he comes from has some fundamental flaws that must also be transcended.

This apocalyptic thing is only worrisome if that is a "plan" that is still held by the Dalai Lama - and his gang of monks are holy manipulators intent on power & not the progressive growth of humanity into the future...

A friend of mine, John Taylor - has worked with the Dalai Lama as a photographer to get a record of the distruction of the sacred sites in Tibet by the Han Chinese... I shall try to find him and ask what his "take" on these matters may be. But I know he was a great admirer of His Holiness and probably still is, so his view may be personal more than objective. Nonetheless it is that quality of light and compassion and humanity that can be experienced in his company that tends to keep me very sure that The Dalai Lama is a force for possitive progressive change in our world.

Entertaining doubt is healthy and useful - but the document that we are using to base much of these discussions on is probably what should be challanged more than the direction now taken by Tibetan Buddhism.

I have spent a little time looking at where the Tibetans are putting their energies and resorces-holding the people together and holding onto some land...Spreading a doctrine of compassion...Environmental protection etc...

I have not looked into the original cause of these investigations -the document offered a few pages back- I hope someone can and will but I don't think its something I want to pursue.

I do have an interest in where the Tibetans are headed, not what they've left behind. It may be that the diaspora is a lesson in nonattachment for the world to witness. Giving up one's home and roots and cutural heritage is a very trying experience I am sure. If these losses can be absorbed and spiritual growth continues then the strength of Tibetan Buddhism will be enhanced by the shedding of out-moded precepts and the moving out into the world will manifest as a great boon to the whole world. If the baggage they bring with them encludes a feudal misogynistic structure it will have to be jettisoned at some point anyway. That crap is not our future.

The people you wish to address with this challange will probably glean the wheat from the chaff of their own volition.

 

As Carl Sagan wrote in Pale Blue Dot (1994):

 

A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[cloud recluse]

Hers a little something.A link (if I can make it work) to a June Campbell interview I just found

 

anandainfo

 

Anyways, im cool with the Noble Truths. Anyone know is a good source for learning more about vajrayana secrets? How about the essence of yoga of naropa or dzogchen, mahamudra?

 

Actually,Ive just started playing with Lama Surya Das' book & cd set "NATURAL RADIANCE:AWAKENING TO YOUR GREAT PERFECTION" Although his delivery in the giuded meditations is not what Im used to,I am actually finding it quite useful.Its basically an intro to Dzogchen meditation.

 

Now ,in Dzogchen terms,Im sure it wouldnt be seen as a substitute for Lineage Empowerment,but it does seem to give you a good 'taste'.

 

Regards,Cloud