All roads lead to rome so why so different?

[mewtwo]

I really dont want this thread to become a fight or anything like that i am hoping for some understanding.

 

Basicaly in the past here i have come across people telling me i am doing stuff wrong and also that other people are doing stuff wrong. or that they have a different theory and that theres is correct. One example i can recall is that someone said that john chang does not have a dantien but an upper and lower field, when someone else said he had a dantien. or something like that i cant really remeber. But anyways why not try and instead of telling people there way is wrong guide them and say you can do that or this. Only tell them it is wrong if they are going to cause harm to themselves. Cause really who is to say that one way is correct or is not correct.

 

I knew a guy up at job corps who said i am not here to judge only to observe.

 

thanks

[Marblehead]

Perhaps all roads lead to Rome. But if you are already in Rome then all roads lead to different destinations. (Getting out of Rome is a lot harder than getting into Rome.)

 

Rome is not a destination. It is only a stopping over place, just like all other places. The destination is noplace and we must travel the noroad in order to arrive there. (That's from Chuang Tzu coursely paraphrased.)

 

However, there is a 'best' path for each and everyone of us. That path might be the 'best' path for some others as well but then too, it might not.

 

All I can say is that if a given path is taking you deeper into the forest of fear and loneliness instead of toward the valley of rest then it is likely that you are travelling the 'wrong' path 'for you'.

 

We each have a journey to make. We each must walk it on our own else we will be only living someone else's life.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Marblehead

[effilang]

Because the road to Rome is covered in broken glass.

 

One guy goes it barefoot.

One guy wears shoes.

Another guy rides a bike.

Another guy drives a tank.

Someone else takes a plane.

Others don't even want to go to Rome, they are just taking someone there, but still end up there because of it.

 

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

There are infinite ways through which you can meditate to achieve your spiritual goals.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I think we can safely say not all paths accomplish the same goal, that's why there are so many different paths. We need to clearly define what our goal is and then find schools and teachers that have accomplished it already and learn from them.

 

I think it is a little silly to say all paths are as good as each other for all goals. Lets take a non spiritual goal. Let's say your goal is to become wealthy via your career, getting a job that pays $50.00/hr is going to be a better choice than a minimum wage job for your stated goal.

[manitou]

I understand what you're saying, Mewtwo. I too am of the opinion that all roads lead to Rome, if you look at Rome as Oneness. My way of seeing it is that we are Spirit manifesting from the inside out. Spirit wants to get to Rome, always. Even the seemingly lowliest manner of humankind contains the One within, who is always placing choices in front of the derelict for him to make. Stay in his situation, or get out of it. Reach up to the light, or stay stewing in the mire.

 

We who are in consciousness of the spiritual journey and the inner journey and who endeavor to practice the Oneness in our everyday lives will ultimately find that which we are seeking. My guess is that the One wants to manifest into the One, to recognize itself within the structure of matter. For the world to be One.

 

Perhaps Rome is the place we land after we've gone through the structure of the various paths to get there. Rome is a place of freedom, of no rules other than the direction of our own heart. By the time we've gotten to Rome our heart is filled with light and love for everyone and everything, so rules are not necessary.

 

Yes, we must still give to Caesar what is Caesar's. But our inner self becomes quantum, open to everything and all possibilities. Rome is the place where we stop pushing and trying so hard. Rome is where we let it just happen and realize that Life is bringing us exactly what we need.

 

I also think that the arguments we get into on this forum are just because we may not YET see the connection between the paths - perhaps because we haven't gone deep enough yet. Something inside me just Knows that Buddhism and Taoism are the very same thing but from different perspectives. If we can't see the link, it's because we just can't see the link yet. But I'm pretty sure it's there, because of where they both ultimately lead. No need for arguing, just understanding. If we argue, it's because we're unsure of ourselves and ego has kicked in.

Edited May 23, 2011 by manitou

[doc benway]

Perhaps all roads lead to Rome. But if you are already in Rome then all roads lead to different destinations.

This is great.

[Marblehead]

This is great.

 

Thanks. Actually, that is based on a personal experience. The first time I drove to Rome I had absolutely no problen finding Rome. When it was time to continue my journey however, I could find no road signs pointing out destinations outside of Rome. I guess they figured that once you are in rome you are supposed to stay there.

 

I had to rely on my old boy scout training, look at where the sun was in the sky, look at what time it was, and select the general direction I wanted to go to. Once I was outside Rome proper I found signs so that I could select the road I needed to continue my journey.

[effilang]

This is great.

 

lol, no offense Steve, but why exactly is that great? Isn't he just pointing out the obvious.

 

 

Like if i were to say 3 plus 2 is five, but 2 plus 3 is also five, would that be great?

 

It just seems like someone looking at something and pointing out the obvious.

 

What am i missing?

 

 

Edited May 24, 2011 by effilang

[doc benway]

lol, no offense Steve, but why exactly is that great? Isn't he just pointing out the obvious.

 

 

Like if i were to say 3 plus 2 is five, but 2 plus 3 is also five, would that be great?

 

It just seems like someone looking at something and pointing out the obvious.

 

What am i missing?

Yes it's completely obvious and everybody misses it!

 

We are always already what we are. We always want to be something else - enlightened, awakened, saved, whatever.

And all of the sages are telling us that we are already there! We are already that!

The Daoists tell us this, the Buddhists, the non-dualists, the Hindus, Jesus, Judaism...

 

So we are already in Rome and all of the roads lead AWAY!

All of the methods, practices, paths, cultivations, and prostrations lead AWAY from our natural state, from what we already are.

They take us farther away, way way out in different directions until we drive ourselves crazy.

And as long as we insist on finding the right path we're continually going away from Rome in all different directions.

That is the purpose of Chan and Zen - the purpose of the koan and the endless neigong exercises.

They take us way out to the limits of our understanding and tolerance until we finally WAKE UP!

And we are in Rome.

And we realize there is no where else to go.

There is no need to try and find our way out.

We are already here.

[effilang]

Yes it's completely obvious and everybody misses it!

 

And all of the sages are telling us that we are already there! We are already that!

 

 

 

Yes, but this is only valid to someone who is already there and has the wisdom and psychic development to understand what that means, because they can see it, but to a normal human being such as ourselves, who are not developed to see that, it makes no sense.

 

Technically in our own unenlightened reality, that which makes sense to the sages is empty to us.

 

I understand it, because in an existence of infinite time and space, between being where you are and being when you are there is essentially no difference since the concept of time is invalid, so all realities and all potential possibilities all exist simultanaeously.

 

So we can understand a concept ourselves or at least formulate a personal conception out of raw data: such as "we are already that and there", but until we are cultivated enough spiritually and have unlocked our brains to that level of perception, the real essence of that meanings original state would be millenia away from our actually understanding it.

 

 

[Birch]

I understand what you're saying, Mewtwo. I too am of the opinion that all roads lead to Rome, if you look at Rome as Oneness. My way of seeing it is that we are Spirit manifesting from the inside out. Spirit wants to get to Rome, always. Even the seemingly lowliest manner of humankind contains the One within, who is always placing choices in front of the derelict for him to make. Stay in his situation, or get out of it. Reach up to the light, or stay stewing in the mire.

 

We who are in consciousness of the spiritual journey and the inner journey and who endeavor to practice the Oneness in our everyday lives will ultimately find that which we are seeking. My guess is that the One wants to manifest into the One, to recognize itself within the structure of matter. For the world to be One.

 

Perhaps Rome is the place we land after we've gone through the structure of the various paths to get there. Rome is a place of freedom, of no rules other than the direction of our own heart. By the time we've gotten to Rome our heart is filled with light and love for everyone and everything, so rules are not necessary.

 

Yes, we must still give to Caesar what is Caesar's. But our inner self becomes quantum, open to everything and all possibilities. Rome is the place where we stop pushing and trying so hard. Rome is where we let it just happen and realize that Life is bringing us exactly what we need.

 

I also think that the arguments we get into on this forum are just because we may not YET see the connection between the paths - perhaps because we haven't gone deep enough yet. Something inside me just Knows that Buddhism and Taoism are the very same thing but from different perspectives. If we can't see the link, it's because we just can't see the link yet. But I'm pretty sure it's there, because of where they both ultimately lead. No need for arguing, just understanding. If we argue, it's because we're unsure of ourselves and ego has kicked in.

 

"My guess is that the One wants to manifest into the One, to recognize itself within the structure of matter."

 

Sure. But in which case, why bother with "the many"? Why bother differentiating into jing,qi,shen? Why "ten thousand things"? Why not just spend one's time being "one"? Hell of a lot more peaceful

 

Are you suggesting "one" sets itself up for no other reason than to get to the (re-cognition) of the one? I've read/heard that one (pardon the pun) before. And indeed, many religions/practices seem (to me) to be based on that premise. I don't doubt that by doing those things one can get to states and sentiments that seem like being "the one". I've done some But I wonder...

 

I figure if the purpose of "the one" was to get back to itself, then all of the "ten thousand things" would be doing stuff to re-cognize "the one" but so far I haven't seen a bird religion or a whale practice or a dog ritual to get to anything other than, well, whatever birds and whales and dogs already do? Ok, maybe it's because my bird and whale and dog observation is faulty. Maybe.

 

So I wonder if there's not something else "afoot". And what might be afoot except a lie (or several)? I'm not knocking the awesome experiences of unity but i'd argue that for people to need/want to get to that state when we know full well that things aren't any other way, well, maybe something's up? So what's up? And why is it "up" in the first place?

[doc benway]

"My guess is that the One wants to manifest into the One, to recognize itself within the structure of matter."

 

Sure. But in which case, why bother with "the many"? Why bother differentiating into jing,qi,shen? Why "ten thousand things"? Why not just spend one's time being "one"? Hell of a lot more peaceful

Very true, but also dull! This is why the Hindus came up with the allegory of the great actor, the great dancer. The universe loves music and vibration. Everything is a wave and what is a wave if not music? So we are all supposed to be dancing. This is our dance. And when our chance has passed, others get a turn.

 

Are you suggesting "one" sets itself up for no other reason than to get to the (re-cognition) of the one? I've read/heard that one (pardon the pun) before. And indeed, many religions/practices seem (to me) to be based on that premise. I don't doubt that by doing those things one can get to states and sentiments that seem like being "the one". I've done some But I wonder...

 

I figure if the purpose of "the one" was to get back to itself, then all of the "ten thousand things" would be doing stuff to re-cognize "the one" but so far I haven't seen a bird religion or a whale practice or a dog ritual to get to anything other than, well, whatever birds and whales and dogs already do? Ok, maybe it's because my bird and whale and dog observation is faulty. Maybe.

 

So I wonder if there's not something else "afoot". And what might be afoot except a lie (or several)? I'm not knocking the awesome experiences of unity but i'd argue that for people to need/want to get to that state when we know full well that things aren't any other way, well, maybe something's up? So what's up? And why is it "up" in the first place?

I'm not sure it's set up so our feeble intellects can find a satisfying reason for all of it.

Why isn't it enough to just have this dance?

Birds, dogs, and whales know what they are and it is enough.

It is the human condition to not be satisfied, to desire, to need to become something other than we already are, no matter what that is. That is the nature of suffering according to the Buddhists. So they tell us to let go of desire - recognize that permanence is an illusion so there is nothing to cling to, no advantage to desire. And the Daoist approach is to revere the simple man, the peasant, the fool. And the Hindus reveres the forest hermit who wanders off naked into the woods. They are all telling us the same thing. Wake up to what you are. You're already that. It is enough.

And maybe not...

[Otis]

Yes it's completely obvious and everybody misses it!

 

We are always already what we are. We always want to be something else - enlightened, awakened, saved, whatever.

And all of the sages are telling us that we are already there! We are already that!

The Daoists tell us this, the Buddhists, the non-dualists, the Hindus, Jesus, Judaism...

 

So we are already in Rome and all of the roads lead AWAY!

All of the methods, practices, paths, cultivations, and prostrations lead AWAY from our natural state, from what we already are.

They take us farther away, way way out in different directions until we drive ourselves crazy.

And as long as we insist on finding the right path we're continually going away from Rome in all different directions.

That is the purpose of Chan and Zen - the purpose of the koan and the endless neigong exercises.

They take us way out to the limits of our understanding and tolerance until we finally WAKE UP!

And we are in Rome.

And we realize there is no where else to go.

There is no need to try and find our way out.

We are already here.

This is great!

[manitou]

Sure. But in which case, why bother with "the many"? Why bother differentiating into jing,qi,shen? Why "ten thousand things"? Why not just spend one's time being "one"? Hell of a lot more peaceful

 

 

Shit, I don't know.

[suninmyeyes]

I really dont want this thread to become a fight or anything like that i am hoping for some understanding.

 

Basicaly in the past here i have come across people telling me i am doing stuff wrong and also that other people are doing stuff wrong. or that they have a different theory and that theres is correct. One example i can recall is that someone said that john chang does not have a dantien but an upper and lower field, when someone else said he had a dantien. or something like that i cant really remeber. But anyways why not try and instead of telling people there way is wrong guide them and say you can do that or this. Only tell them it is wrong if they are going to cause harm to themselves. Cause really who is to say that one way is correct or is not correct.

 

I knew a guy up at job corps who said i am not here to judge only to observe.

 

thanks

Dont mind and ride 'your' own breath .

[Marblehead]

lol, no offense Steve, but why exactly is that great? Isn't he just pointing out the obvious.

 

Like if i were to say 3 plus 2 is five, but 2 plus 3 is also five, would that be great?

 

It just seems like someone looking at something and pointing out the obvious.

 

What am i missing?

 

Hehehe. I got a chuckle out of that.

 

Sometimes verbalizing the obvious is very profound.

 

Kinda' like, "Duh!"

[Marblehead]

Yes, but this is only valid to someone who is already there and has the wisdom and psychic development to understand what that means, because they can see it, but to a normal human being such as ourselves, who are not developed to see that, it makes no sense.

 

Technically in our own unenlightened reality, that which makes sense to the sages is empty to us.

 

I understand it, because in an existence of infinite time and space, between being where you are and being when you are there is essentially no difference since the concept of time is invalid, so all realities and all potential possibilities all exist simultanaeously.

 

So we can understand a concept ourselves or at least formulate a personal conception out of raw data: such as "we are already that and there", but until we are cultivated enough spiritually and have unlocked our brains to that level of perception, the real essence of that meanings original state would be millenia away from our actually understanding it.

 

Yes, this is important what you have said. Thanks for including it in the discussion.

[Marblehead]

So I wonder if there's not something else "afoot". And what might be afoot except a lie (or several)? I'm not knocking the awesome experiences of unity but i'd argue that for people to need/want to get to that state when we know full well that things aren't any other way, well, maybe something's up? So what's up? And why is it "up" in the first place?

 

Very deep thought. So what's up? I think that this is why we are told to discard all the "knowledge" that we have been fed during our lifetime.

[Marblehead]

This is great!

 

Yep.

[Thunder_Gooch]

To the "you don't need to do anything, because you are already there and enlightened" folks:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/bullshit.shtml

 

 

I have no idea where you are getting this bizarre notion, except that perhaps you are reading The Power of Now, following Adiashanti, or some other tradition that for reasons completely beyond me assumes that everyone already has the powers of perception of the rarest perceptual superstars.

 

I myself have known before and after, meaning that I know what I was capable of perceiving and understanding before I underwent meditative training and after, and no amount of being fed the concept that I was already as developed as I could be, was already enlightened, was already there, had nothing to do, nothing to develop, was already as clear as I could be, was already perfectly awake, etc. was going to make the difference that the thousands of hours over years of increasing my ability to perceive things clearly did.

 

It would be like saying: you are already a concert pianist, you just have to realize it, or you already are a nuclear physicist, you just have to realize it, or you already speak every language, you just have to realize it.

 

It would be like saying to a two-year old: you already understand everything you need to know so stop learning new things now, or to a severe paranoid schizophrenic: you already are as sane as anyone and do not need to take your meds and should just follow the voices that tell you to kill people, or to a person with heart disease: just keep smoking and eating twinkies and you will be healthy, or to an illiterate person with no math skills who keeps having a hard time navigating in the modern world and is constantly disempowered and ripped off: no need to learn to read and do math, as you are just fine as you are, or saying to a greedy, corrupt, corporate-raiding, white-collar criminal, Fascist, alcoholic wife-beater: hey, Dude, you are a like, beautiful perfect flower of the Now Moment, already enlightened [insert toke here], you are doing and not-doing just fine, like wow, so keep up the good work, Man.

 

Would you let a blind and partially paralyzed untrained stroke victim perform open-heart surgery on your child based on the notion that they already are an accomplished surgeon but just have to realize it? Would you follow the dharma teachings of people who feed other people this kind of crap? In short, are you completely out of your mind?

 

Those who imagine that everyone somehow in their development already became as clear and perceptive as they could be just by being alive is missing something very profound. Do you imagine that you can just remind people of these things and suddenly all wisdom and clarity will suddenly just appear? This mind-bogglingly naive. I simply have to ask: from where did you attain this fantastic fixed delusion?

 

 

 

............

 

 

In short: STOP IT! You are spreading craziness, and this is craziness that many people will not be able to tell is craziness, including, it seems, yourself. While I usually do not go so far as to tell people that there is something so deeply wrong with what they think and how they communicate it that they should stop it immediately and forever, this particular point is a great example of something I consider abhorrent and worthy of profound revision.

 

Regardless of any kind intentions, the teachings that you perpetuate take a half-truth that seems so very nice and seductive to us neurotic Americans who just can barely stand another achievement trip and have such a hard time with self-acceptance and turn it into sugary poison.

-Daniel Ingram

Edited May 24, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Marblehead]

To the "you don't need to do anything, because you are already there and enlightened" folks:

 

-Daniel Ingram

 

That is an extreme point of view and not fair to the entire post that is quoted from.

 

The post was speaking to the concept of 'wu wei' - not doing when there is nothing to be done and when doing, doing in a manner that is most natural in a given situation.

 

To do nothing your entire lifetime is, IMO, insane.

 

There are things to do, even places to go. But wherever you go, there you are. Whatever you do this you have done.

 

Sure, some people need teachers for whatever the reason. They need to become dymanic. Being static is the same thing as being dead.

 

And no, you cannot be anything other than what your capabilities and capacities allow you to be. But to settle for anything less is to cheat life.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I agree with Daniel Ingram, he is one of the few reputable people to publicly claim to be an arahat. He is also a medical doctor.

 

I think saying no one needs to do anything as we are all already at our destination is blatantly false.

 

I think saying that all practices can accomplish any and every possible goal, is also blatantly false.

 

I'm not trying to be a party pooper or start an argument by saying "my practice is better than your practice" but those seems a very logical and reality based observations.

 

Just my $0.02

Edited May 24, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Marblehead]

I agree with Daniel Ingram, he is one of the few reputable people to publicly claim to be an arahat. He is also a medical doctor.

 

I think saying no one needs to do anything as we are all already at our destination is blatantly false.

 

I think saying that all practices can accomplish any and every possible goal, is also blatantly false.

 

I'm not trying to be a party pooper or start an argument by saying "my practice is better than your practice" but those seems a very logical and reality based observations.

 

Just my $0.02

 

Yep. I wasn't trying to discredit what Daniel said. Just wanted to point out that it is an extreme position just as saying we don't need to do anything is an extreme position.

 

And I agree, there are some things that an other person can do that I will never be able to do. Doesn't matter how long I practice or with which teacher I try to learn with. Chuang Tzu spoke to this.

 

No, we should not compare practices. But we can say that one practice will likely be better for this particular individual than most other practices would be. (The right tool for the job at hand. We shouldn't try using a screwdriver to loosen a nut secured to a bolt.)

[Thunder_Gooch]

It isn't an extreme position, it's common sense imho.

 

I never said or meant to imply you couldn't achieve something that a master could, actually I would think the direct opposite. Almost everyone has the potential to achieve a very high level and be worth of being called a master given correct practices for their goals and enough hard work and dedication.

 

There are a lot of end goals for practices and a lot of practices, I think we need to look for masters, schools and systems that have accomplished what we seek to achieve and learn from them, to me that makes the most sense.

 

Yep. I wasn't trying to discredit what Daniel said. Just wanted to point out that it is an extreme position just as saying we don't need to do anything is an extreme position.

 

And I agree, there are some things that an other person can do that I will never be able to do. Doesn't matter how long I practice or with which teacher I try to learn with. Chuang Tzu spoke to this.

 

No, we should not compare practices. But we can say that one practice will likely be better for this particular individual than most other practices would be. (The right tool for the job at hand. We shouldn't try using a screwdriver to loosen a nut secured to a bolt.)

Edited May 24, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Otis]

It isn't an extreme position, it's common sense imho.

You're right. It is common sense. But common sense is just what matches society's previous expectations. There's nothing about common sense that is inherently true.

 

Common sense says: you have to work for everything.

 

But what if the thing you want to find - is your true self? Well, why would I have to work to find myself, when I'm already here? I merely need to stop being other than I am.

 

This does take time, and it does take practice, but it does not need work. IME, play is a much more effective way of finding and accepting who I am, than is working toward a mental fantasy of who I think I should be.

 

Of course cultivation is useful, once I have accepted who I am. There's always more room to grow. But cultivation that is in lieu of acceptance, or that is intended to force a change in who I am; that is counterproductive. That is the road, leading away from Rome. Because it just builds new layers of falsity.

 

Finding my true self comes from just stopping being my fantasy self. It is 100% accepting where I am, at every moment. It is forgiving myself and the world, surrendering all grudges and need to win. It is being utterly self-honest. It is letting go the importance of my desires and my fears. All of this comes from surrendering my mental models of the world, not from taking on new philosophies and methods.

 

So I agree: don't go to a surgeon who hasn't earned his stripes, and don't take on a teacher, who has not been exhaustive and unrelenting in his self- and other-discovery. But that doesn't mean that one needs to work to find one's self. Just start accepting, stop taking one's self so seriously, and start playing as a way of life.