John Chang Video

[orb]

Informative, yes. Credible? I read couple of Sean Denty's posts on the topic here and elsewhere and while I have no clue about his credibility his posts don't click with me.

(just an opinion of mere beginner who got the feeling he must rely more on his gut feelings than anything else in this "cultivation world", and who doesn't follow Winn's nor Chia's system)

Here is btw. Michael Winn's response: http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/10475/

 

 

LOL that was great. Great article, thx. I wish I read it long time ago, but it's still very good, also changed my impression of Michael Winn a bit (not of Mr Chia though...) I was starting to forget how much fun this forum can be.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well I'm not involved with any of the parties discussed here. All I can say is that, as far as my knowledge, MANY traditions, Taoist or otherwise, place a certain emphasis on bodily health. A healthy body is important to anyone, especially the cultivator. Many traditions have developed techniques for making the body healthy.

 

I don't think ANY of the people who had a grasp of those health methods would EVER mistake them for being the pinnacle of cultivation. There is just SO much more out there. They are helpful to a body. That in and of itself is good, but not, I don't think, the top.

 

Now these health practices can sometimes be simple or complex. Improper and/or partial training in these methods can lead to imbalances, injury, and sickness. This is their inherent risk. Which is why it is important to do research on your teacher and, because it is so easily to make off with a partial knowledge of something, important that you go and visit other people, and get educated about EVERYTHING you are doing (and this involves western doctors!).

 

And it is a personal belief if mine that part of a good practice will teach someone how to still the mind and go into their body, and really try to feel how the body is reacting to a practice. In my experience, the body can feel what needs to be done, and if you pay attention to that, you will avoid many problems. A still mind also makes it easier to hear the voice saying "stop!"

 

Anyway, when in doubt, stop and collect more information. No sense in wrecking your body because your mind wants to go a certain way.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[bodyoflight]

2 sides to every story.

 

http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/10475/

 

From: Michael Winn

Subject: General

Date/Time 2006-10-07 22:05:30

Remote IP: 66.32.123.26

Message

OK,

Here we go again.

 

Sean Denty, a lovely young,big eyed kid from Kalamazoo. Does some summer workstudy at Big Indian back in the late 90's until we move to Dao Mtn. Over practices with his sexual energy, doesn't balance it enough with meditation and grounding. Admits to me by email he is having problems, is way ungrounded. I offer a few suggestions by email. He decides to work with Ron Diana, iron shirt master.

 

I am aabsolutely honest with Sean about Chia's strengths and weaknesses. He tells me at the time he respects what I'm teaching, even though he hasn't progressed very far in the system. But he eventually leaves, says it isn't his path, he needs to go on a quest for the Magus of Java, what do I think? I tell him go for it, let me know what you find.

 

Now years, later, after wasting 4 years and big bucks chasing the Magus and getting nowhere, he lands with David Shen. This time, he has got to get it right, otherwise the Great Search has a bad ending.

 

Now, a few days ago Sean begins posting on Tao bums about how corrupt the Healing Dao is, only made up formulas sold for money, a "complete scam". That Chia stopped studying with One Cloud at age 13. (Truth: age 19).

 

That Chia made up the alchemical formulas for money. (Total falsehood, probably Sean Denty parroting David Shen, who is bitter about his failed relationship with Chia). Truth: formulas similar to HT formulas can be found, at least up to the Lesser kan & Li level, in print and in various Taoist and Buddhist alchemical traditions.

 

All of these blatant falsehoods make we wonder if nice, sincere boy Sean Denty has been duped into believing all his stories, or just needs to support his new recruiting efforts by demonizing the HT and ascaring away the competition.

 

Of course, it takes a few days of cynical prompting by the sharp group over at Tao Bums to pry it out of him: Only $7,500. (6000 euros) for a 2-3 week training - tuition only, in Denmark, to get the Foundation Training of how to open your dantian.

 

And then more money to visit the Teacher in Thailand, and then after several years you will be introduced to the Teacher in China. And only if they look in your third eye and see that its your "fate" to study with them. Eventually, there is a hnt of the Big Teaser: Wang Li Ping walking through doors, get trained in levitation. That without these powers, you really haven't achieved anything spiritually.

 

Nothing done here for money, no scams. Suddenly this $7500. tuition fee is described as "reasonable, of course, for the opportunity to start with a real master".

 

And David Shen has improved his tale since we last saw him, and the details are recounted in a breathless style that is better than any romantic kung-fu novel I have read since the Wandering Taoist trilogy (a great read, but unfortunately completely made up. Ken Cohen recently confirmed to me Kwan Sai Hung was born in NYC as a Franklin Tan (?), Ken had seen his passport while they were sharing trainings).

 

The David Shen story has gotten much better than his channeled tales about the iimmortal dajen. A secret hierarchy of masters in China, secret sacred dharma wheels that the Dalai Lama is begging to get back. But only the True Seeker need signup for this special $7500. opportunity - only for someone who knows in advance that they are signing up for Life Time committment with David Shen and his huge entourage of masters.

 

Note: for the curious, Details of Wang LI Ping's meditation techniques have already been published for free in the Empty Vessel, by someone else claiming to be his student, but obviously not iinterested in collecting a lot of money. The methods detailed in those articles basically involve cultivating "lines" of chi into the Third Eye and then down into the body along the same lines as detailed in the Inner Smile (front line of organs, back spine, middle digestive line). Looks like perfectly good meditation techniques.

 

Back to the $7500, to open your dantian. Of course, the caveat is offered that it doesn't really happen unless you practice 3 hours of meditation daily for the 2 years after the training and before you are taught anything else.

 

But you'd think anyone smart enough to practice that much wouldn't also be dumb enough to pay that much to learn how to meditate on concentrating chi in the dantian. The wudang spinning pearl meditation preparatory to the orbit will do just fine. If you spend 3 hours a day on it you will not know what to do with all the energy that starts buzzing. And you will need the orbit to balance it in the body, contrary to the disinformation that David is iputting out, that the orbit is insignificant. (Perhaps in his new tradition - but why try to tell adepts of other paths/schools what works and what doenn't?).

 

The $7500. however, makes me realize I am hopelessly non-commercial - you could buy my entire homestudy course series for about $1,500.......about the cost of a week at a low rent fat farm. Even though it will take 5 years to go thru it - the first time round.

 

Of course, if you believe Sean's kung-fu romance, nobody but David Shen is real, so everyone else in the world is a waste of time and money. The big wide eyed kid from Kalamazoo is now the authority on that.

 

Of course, I am having a bit of fun offering some sober distance on Sean's second hand story claims.

 

I don't know what David's curent reality is - I heard he had finally allowed himself to have a stable relationship and was pursuing his life's dreams. Great - I truly wish him well, and hope it adds someting to the global spiritual science that will inevitably evolve from a synthesis of many traditions.

 

Sean's recounting of David's listing of the Taoist internal traditions is one view (now changed from David's past lists, I note) - and other teachers and Daoist scholars I've met in China list them completely differently. But some of the cited details are interesting, even if only remotely useful to most western practitioners.

 

I fully accept the most extraordinary feats are possible, even if they don't really interest me enough to make them the subject of my life's quest. Spontaneously arising special abilities are great - that is, a great responsibility to use them wisely.

 

By the way, I believe Sean's teacher in Bangkok, Thailand - a master Luo - is credible. That's the " Sherfu L" word he is carefully concealing. I know from other people who are studying with him and think he is real. A woman I know tried to bring him over to the USA, and wanted my help. Didn't work out. He too used to work at Tao Garden...But you can get to him without paying David Shen $7,500......

 

I just hope that Sean resolves his anger about his past, and stops using his anger to dump on other teachers about whom he knows very little, despite his status as work-study apprentice in Big Indian many years ago.

 

And I hope that Sean stops using his anger over what he failed to accomplish in his own HT practice to elevate his latest newest Teacher. Getting a handle on his emotional body is probably more important than him feeling a sparkler in his crown.

 

The real lesson in all these romantic kung-fu novel tales - is that there is no "secret system" that REALLY works. It all comes down to each individual working REALLY HARD in whatever system they are attracted to - People work, methods and schools don't do anything alone.

 

I wil be happy to have someone else pay the $7500 and share what they learned. This is the age in which all the secrets will come out eventually. Of course, we know the old psychology - once you've paid that much money, you've got to defend what you learned as incredible.....

 

Incredibly Yours For Life,

Michael

[Trunk]

I appreciate that there are differing pts of view, some quite valid.

One pt of view never covers it, and of course I welcome good criticism. (Even my thoughts are not identical to SDenty's, even though I quoted him. ) Some strongly worded contrary posts here that I particularly respect and appreciate.

 

- Keith

[mantis]

I would like to hear more of this "Master Luo", seems like a very interesting fellow (and I wouldn't mind the trip to Thailand)

[Kronos]

Note: for the curious, Details of Wang LI Ping's meditation techniques have already been published for free in the Empty Vessel, by someone else claiming to be his student, but obviously not iinterested in collecting a lot of money. The methods detailed in those articles basically involve cultivating "lines" of chi into the Third Eye and then down into the body along the same lines as detailed in the Inner Smile (front line of organs, back spine, middle digestive line). Looks like perfectly good meditation techniques.

 

That's maybe 1% if what we learned at the first seminar. And what we learned at the first seminar was 1% of what I know today... and that's not even 1% of the complete system.

Publish the picture of gas cap and make the ignorants believe it's a car

Master Wang published books, Shen also did, in these books you get more details than just the "lines". For example 5-Elements, Ping Heng Gong, Bagua Yi Sphere, Walking Qi Gong and a lot of background informations. All (almost) for free.

BUT you'll get the difference between informations and transmission as soon you join a seminar. Priceless

[DragonGateNYC]

That's maybe 1% if what we learned at the first seminar. And what we learned at the first seminar was 1% of what I know today... and that's not even 1% of the complete system.

Publish the picture of gas cap and make the ignorants believe it's a car

Master Wang published books, Shen also did, in these books you get more details than just the "lines". For example 5-Elements, Ping Heng Gong, Bagua Yi Sphere, Walking Qi Gong and a lot of background informations. All (almost) for free.

BUT you'll get the difference between informations and transmission as soon you join a seminar. Priceless

Indeed, dear Kronos. What do we students have to say for ourselves that we keep attending Master Wang's seminars, even three times per year when possible? Certainly it's because Master Wang teaches additional awesome new material at each Intensive! I encourage dear Michael to attend an Intensive so that he knows this and understands the value of transmission from a true Master; surely he would find the experience extremely enjoyable as did his web developer, James, who attended this past April Intensive. Thank you, dear Michael for sharing with us so that new students can have an idea of the 1% that is covered

Edited April 30, 2011 by DragonGateNYC

[h.uriahr]

I would like to hear more of this "Master Luo", seems like a very interesting fellow (and I wouldn't mind the trip to Thailand)

 

 

Navigate through the site and you'll find Luo.

 

www.neigong.it

[宁]

Trunk

 

I am more than a bit surprised by this bit of journalism here. In my view MR Denty's perspective is seriously biased and I think time has shown he had clear reasons for this bias as he was part of a team seeking to promote Verdesi. I also feel that characterizing Denty as being part of an "inner circle" may be a stretch unless you are only going by the statements and opinion of Denty himself.

 

Your report reads to me as a damning of all Healing Tao practices as "useless childs games" and all healing tao instructors as "without any accomplishments", not just a critique of the so called Healing Love practices.

 

In my view the healing love and the iron shirt practices are seriously flawed and incomplete respectively, but to throw out the whole teaching is in my opinion a simple minded approach.

 

Sean Denty had a serious axe to grind and I think you are doing a disservice to history here to make such a report. It is NOT fair and balanced :-) I was there. I read all the conversations avidly.

 

Craig

 

 

+ 1

 

@Trunk, we had our differences, regardless of that, i honestly want to ask you, were there any personal experiences that led you to your strong opinions about this system? I feel that your bias is a bit too strong to be considered only a product of the compassion that you have for the 'many that were hurt'.

 

The medicine has the power to heal, and also the power to poison, the matter is decisevly one of timing and planning your practices, knowing yourself, listening to the body, taking things one at a time.

 

My 2 (biased) cents

[gendao]

[Trunk]

What I see as credible and pertinent re: SDenty's posts is that:

- he was an instructor and spent substantial time w/ a number of senior instructors, including MWinn. That's what I meant by "inner circle".

- HT sexual practices often mess people up, organization management (instructors on up) knows this and doesn't know how to fix it, yet keeps selling the sexually oriented materials.

- in other threads SDenty said he was reading 10 letters a month from people who were injured from the HT system. (Advanced Search for posts by SeanDenty with the word "letters".)

 

There's often the arguement, "go see an instructor", "follow the whole system", etc. Well, the above debunks that; the organization and the system, the methods, are incorrect. As if we didn't know that already from observations w/in the e-community and MWinn's polished skill at deflecting difficult situations.

 

When I was at Tao Garden there was a section when the men and women split into separate groups, so I was sitting there in private with all the men at retreat and several senior instructors. A senior instructor asked, "how many of you got into the HT for the sexual practices?". Everyone raised their hands, including the instructors. The HT knows what their $elling point is, and they know that their methods often do damage to people's jing: their sexuality, their health, their emotional health, their intimate relationships, family life and spirituality as a result. Yet they continue under the guise of improving people's health and spirituality. Unconscionable.

 

Isn't that enough of an issue?

Isn't that enough to extract from SDenty's posts?

 

I have some connection to the local Chinese medical community. Some of my friends and friends of friends are doctors; I see dr's of oriental medicine occasionally. Every time the topic of HT sexual methods come up, same simple agreement, "produces stagnant heat". They've seen it in patients. One of my teachers was quoting his sifu, who was an accomplished dr amongst other things - and the sifu had treated some patients unfortunate enough to follow the HT system and he remarked, "there is hurting someone by mistake and then there is murder". Obviously the word "murder" is hyperbole but indicates deliberately leading someone into very predictable harm.

 

Additionally, semen retention unwisely practiced not only produces the directly resultant disharmony of stagnant heat, but makes it more likely that you'll catch stagnant heat related diseases, and that such a disease will go deeper and be more stubborn to resolve.

 

Obviously the right thing to do is pull the book from the shelves. (Obviously not going to happen.) Next easiest would be to put a large warning sticker inside the front cover. (Obviously not going to happen.) Or they could rewrite the book entirely with much improved methods and a safer orientation. What actually happens? Chia endorses worse books, "MOM".

 

Iron shirt book is just as bad.

 

 

~~ edit ~~

Inserted new paragraph above that starts, "Additionally, ...".

[宁]

...

Isn't that enough of an issue?

Isn't that enough to extract from SDenty's posts?

...

 

 

If it would have been backed up by some facts, yes, it would be enough of an issue. Be that as it may, as Craig said,it's still not enough to throw it out the window as you seem more prone to.

 

However all i see you doing is repeating hearsay, and much of it from dubious sources. If you are an honest investigator of the matter, i suggest you get to really know the community that is UHT, and meet the people that you are blaming.

Anybody would need A CRITICAL MIND LIKE YOURS! I'm not saying you should stop doing it,quite the contrary, my interest is to get the best out of it, and there are people like yourself that are more prepared than myself to ask inconvenient questions...

I'm interested in the following:

- how did those guys hurt themselves (how did they apply what they have learned)

- what did they overdo

- what should they have done (countermeasures of various excessess)

- were there any preexisting symptoms that later one become stronger

...

If possible, backed up by some testimonials and statistics, would be alot more credible and if your intent is to make them correct their mistakes, i'm sure that sent to the right people, would determine an 'official' reaction.

 

But drawing conclusions from hearsay and gossip it's another can of worms.

 

Don't you feel that 'the people have the right to know' that there are alot more people that had extraordinary health benefits (let's not take into account just now the emotional and the spiritual benefits that are a constant companion to all the courses that i have attended to).

I know those people that had those INCREDIBLY positive testimonials, met them and discussed with them.

 

...I had the main instructors and master 'seen' by people that have 'second sight', and the practice examined practically by people that can see deep into the energy structure of the body - it's really interesting, you should go into that with your investigation!

I base my 'bias' on personal experiences.

 

I hope this too doesn't come across as a crafty excuse or deflection

 

PS: There were alot of filmed testimonials, i remember many of them, i hope they will end up on youtube, they are pretty informative and also inspiring, regardless of what you practice.

 

My opinion is more in line with this guy's:

 

Edited May 1, 2011 by Little1

[sunshine]

I have recently been talking to a friend in Switzerland... one of the better practitioners of Chinese medicine... and she said that everytime Chia comes to Switzerland to teach the Chinese medical community is scratching their heads upfront knowing they have to fix quite a few after them receiving the teachings...

 

Don't want to say much about the practices... but there seems to be a tiny little misalignment in what is taught and what people might make out of it. Keeping secerets is blamed a lot by people... but I wonder if some things just shouldnt be taught too openly...

 

 

Harry

[Kronos]

[sunshine]

[Owledge]

@Little1

Did that guy in the video talk about his "Taiji"?! It really sounds like that.

[宁]

I have recently been talking to a friend in Switzerland... one of the better practitioners of Chinese medicine... and she said that everytime Chia comes to Switzerland to teach the Chinese medical community is scratching their heads upfront knowing they have to fix quite a few after them receiving the teachings...

 

Don't want to say much about the practices... but there seems to be a tiny little misalignment in what is taught and what people might make out of it. Keeping secerets is blamed a lot by people... but I wonder if some things just shouldnt be taught too openly...

 

 

Harry

 

 

Harry, thank you really for sharing, i'd agree with the ideas, if you know more details about the cases that the TCM-ists have to 'fix', please share.

 

you know that from ancient times the practices have been evolving thru trial/error, by error i mean many of the practicioners were severely damaged and there were scores of fatalities amoungst them also, at some point.

I wonder if a simmilar process isn't happening today with this 'transplant' of Eastern methodology to the Western body-mind frame, at least it seems so, in some cases.

 

@Hardyg, he is reffering to the system that he practiced, and i was amazed to see that he insisted that Healing Love practice are working, and are working good. Obviously he must have knowledge of the controversy around HL

 

Coming back to that, maybe Harry is right, there maybe a flaw in the transmission. I had and continue to have many benefits from this practice. And i started the worst, alone, practicing from books... just followed what my body 'told' me.

[Owledge]

@Hardyg, he is reffering to the system that he practiced,...

And that system is called Tai Chi. Taiji, what he was saying all the time, is a different thing.

[宁]

And that system is called Tai Chi. Taiji, what he was saying all the time, is a different thing.

 

You are confused.

He is an UHT instructor, and what you've seen is his testimonial as a practicioner and instructor, at a UHT Congress.

Yes, he started with Tai Chi. That's about all that he's saying regarding that

 

(And if you are interested about it, in order to practice Tai Chi correctly, in the UHT, you need to pass through the specific formulas of Qigong and Neigong, as they relate to each other.)

[Owledge]

I don't know why you claim that I am confused when you are unable to get the simple and obvious message in my statements.

 

The guy is like saying: "I'm an advanced UHT instructor and very experienced, but years ago I started with Gi-Gonn."

[宁]

Hardyg, think what you want of it, ok?

 

This one is for the girls, with a lady instructor UHT, same Congress... it was filmed at Tao Garden, i think.

 

 

 

She is fabulous, her husband, Juan Li, is even better.

 

 

This is Shashi Soluna, another instructor and practitioner, she has an interesting experience with it also...

 

Edited May 1, 2011 by Little1

[sunshine]

Harry, thank you really for sharing, i'd agree with the ideas, if you know more details about the cases that the TCM-ists have to 'fix', please share.

 

Please give me some time... I don't want to recite from pure poor memory but would like to verify with her first... she is in the states right now, if I remember right, and I will be off for continued training for a week... as soon as I know I PM you...

 

 

Coming back to that, maybe Harry is right, there maybe a flaw in the transmission. I had and continue to have many benefits from this practice. And i started the worst, alone, practicing from books... just followed what my body 'told' me.

 

I don't know about possible flaws in transmission... but what I by now feel is: people talk so much about: "this is the end of secrets"... there "should be no secrets" etc. and then you have people googling recipes for building bombs and they find it... as things are shared freely. I personally do not think Chia ever intended to hurt someone... but the techniques he shares, be there a flaw in them or not, DO have the potential to hurt people... and while I personally strongly AM with people who think that people should be able to look after themselves and make healthy decisions for themselves I just know that many can't and WILL be hurt by what others share... and this is not specific to Chia... but I feel the Healing Tao is a big business thing as well and individual care and observation just can't be given by those who should... and I feel many of the Healing Tao instructors just can't cut it to be of the calibre to do what they are supposed to do! And then having people practice that stuff from books... you DO know how few actually have a sensible relationship to their body like you seem to have had... lucky you!

 

always good to have an exchange with you... even though it got more seldom...

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[宁]

Thank you Harry, we'll get to the bottom of this eventually, it got me curious!

Waiting for that PM

 

smiles back ^_^

 

L1

[sunshine]

Thank you Harry, we'll get to the bottom of this eventually, it got me curious!

Waiting for that PM

 

smiles back ^_^

 

L1

 

 

To Little 1 and all who read this thread:

 

please accept my open apology!

 

I contacted the named friend and while our talk is just like 3 monthes ago and was very vivid and her speaking like it was a very recent experience she replied to my further inquiry that she was just speaking from memory of what was like 12 years ago and can't even remember exactly what else there actually was aside from sleeping disorders...

 

Next time I make things more sure before typing

 

a serious smily

 

Harry

[宁]

To Little 1 and all who read this thread:

 

please accept my open apology!

 

I contacted the named friend and while our talk is just like 3 monthes ago and was very vivid and her speaking like it was a very recent experience she replied to my further inquiry that she was just speaking from memory of what was like 12 years ago and can't even remember exactly what else there actually was aside from sleeping disorders...

 

Next time I make things more sure before typing

 

a serious smily

 

Harry

 

 

Harry, i had no sense of surprise reading this.

 

In my opinion there is an (old) distorted image of Mantak, his practices and teachings, that it's still lingering on (this may also in part be because from time to time we read about yet another case of someone screwing up their system with improper practice - usually discussing with them we discover that most are un-ballanced to begin with -sorry-, so the end result could only be as such)

 

however the system evolved and the practices have been adapted and secured through the work of many practitioners and instructors, over a period of a few decades - and this process continues. it's best to see this teaching as a living organism.

this is why i asked about what that doctor said, it would have been a great oportunity to have professional feedback, and maybe sort out some issues, if there was the case.

 

On the other hand, i feel you are right about something you said earlier, i meditated on it for some time, maybe some teachings deserve to remain secret. be that as it may, i would still wouldn't have had any clue about all these wonders of the east, if it weren't for a modest copy (not sure if even properly copyrighted) of one of mantak books, heavily edited with added yoga/tantra style teachings for the rumanian version - i mean the first thread of daoist practical knowledge i ever found, was the worst possible beginning one could have - very thin and mingled with alot of other confusing theories.

 

i had my own share of dissapointments with teachings and teachers, and i know firsthand how hard can be for someone to admit the good sides of such an experience, still there are many credits people just can't take away from mantak, based on gossip and bitter resentments. the guy is still doing a helluva job with practical taoism, and still developing it... look at it today!!

 

although i have come to another path of practice, i continue to keep an open eye to what he teaches and his methods of achieving and maintaining health, because as far as i could make of them, they are really good.

 

on this forum i tried to give a second opinion based on my experience, i wasn't paid for it (they wouldn't have this kind of money, haha) and i am happy that in time people have come to a slightly more ballanced opinion.

 

and this is important to me why? because there are many gems in this system, worth exploring, and if people are cut off without even trying it, well, in my opinion, it would be a great loss... it's out there, and although it may not be for everyone, there is a serious community that really benefits from it!

 

take care..

 

L1

 

ps: got your pm, not sure what to respond to it just sending smiles