Freud: EGO = True Self ?

[Wells]

Siegmund Freud, who introduced the term EGO into modern psychology saw the Ego as the true self. His position is mine also. Let's make a little summary with the following nice quote I found in the net:

We have extensively dealt with the classical, Freudian, concept of the Ego. It is a partly conscious, partly preconscious and unconscious. It operates on a "reality principle" (as opposed to the Id's "pleasure principle"). It maintains an inner equilibrium between the onerous (and unrealistic, or ideal) demands of the Superego and the almost irresistible (and unrealistic) drives of the Id. It also has to fend off the unfavourable consequences of comparisons between itself and the Ego Ideal (comparisons that the Superego is only too eager to perform). In many respects, therefore, the Ego in Freudian psychoanalysis IS the Self.

So the Ego is the True Self. Allright, dudes, continue to break down your ego. It only shows that you are not in touch with it, your true self. You are simply destroying what you truly are in your ignorance. I wish you much fun with the final result!

 

Edit: In reality, your problems come from sick drives in your Id and from sick agendas in your Superego...and what you do is destroying the only thing that prevents your system from becoming taken over by these sickening influences! I wish much fun with the resulting Psychic Inflation, when you came far enough with the process! I guess you will interpret it as Enlightenment then! Tragically, the doctors won't!

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Marblehead]

Hi Dorian,

 

Yes, it is my undersanding that the ego is the self.

 

Taoism does not teach eliminating the ego. It does teach that we should lessen our ego. I understand this to mean that we should not think that we are more than we really are. But, on the other hand, we should not think that we are anything less than what we really are.

 

I don't know how to speak to Id or Superego so I will leave those alone.

[Wells]

Yes, it is my undersanding that the ego is the self.

Good insight.

Taoism does not teach eliminating the ego. It does teach that we should lessen our ego. I understand this to mean that we should not think that we are more than we really are. But, on the other hand, we should not think that we are anything less than what we really are.

In fact, Taoism is all about immortality = preserving your Ego forever!

Nobody can argue with that fact!

So it can be seen as the ultimate way of egocentrism. A healthy personality with a healthy self-image would never see something negative about that, on the contrary! Self-preserving is the quintessence of all quest when being a healthy Self.

I don't know how to speak to Id or Superego so I will leave those alone.

Superego = your ideals how things should be (not nessecarily positive ideals, due to negative programmation in childhood for example)

Id = all of your inborn instincts (usually healthy in the beginning but corruptable through abuse in childhood for example)

[Wells]

It does teach that we should lessen our ego. I understand this to mean that we should not think that we are more than we really are. But, on the other hand, we should not think that we are anything less than what we really are.

That's about reducing self-delusion and seing one self as it is, not about reducing your self!

[Marblehead]

That's about reducing self-delusion and seing one self as it is, not about reducing your self!

 

But if we equate self with ego then that is exactly what it is. "Self" is a mental image - that is all. Ego is also a mental image.

 

No, we cannot reduce the "Self" (the total essence of what we are). We are what we are. But we can change, within limits, what we are. We can also change what we think we are.

[Jetsun]

I think the 'true self' includes the id, superego and ego if you want to use that model, it isn't just the ego without the other parts.

[ralis]

I have repeatedly pointed out this very fact to our resident Buddhists, only to be met with vigorous impetuosity as to why there is "no self".

[Wells]

But if we equate self with ego then that is exactly what it is. "Self" is a mental image - that is all. Ego is also a mental image.

"image" suggests a view on or a opinion about something, not the something itself!

So i would rather explain Ego as a complex of programmations that we use to act, to interact with people and the outer world (but also with ourselves) on a higher or another plane than the Id does. It's our personality. A baby has not built up an Ego yet. It already has an Id, without it, the instincts, it couldn't survive. The superego begins growing with programmation through the parents like "No, don't do that! It's bad!" The Ego certainly begins growing too, maybe as effect of the conflict between Id and Superego: "But I want it despite mother don't want me to do it!"

No, we cannot reduce the "Self" (the total essence of what we are). We are what we are. But we can change, within limits, what we are. We can also change what we think we are.

Yes, it is possible! Reduce our Ego until it is destroyed is to return to the state of a baby! What a great achievement! When rudementary functions to communicate with the outer world remain, it's maybe like becoming a mentally retarded.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Marblehead]

I have repeatedly pointed out this very fact to our resident Buddhists, only to be met with vigorous impetuosity as to why there is "no self".

 

Hehehe. Don't expect a total consensus any time soon.

[Wells]

I have repeatedly pointed out this very fact to our resident Buddhists, only to be met with vigorous impetuosity as to why there is "no self".

They're right and you are right also:

"There is no self besides the EGO!"

[ralis]

They're right and you are right also:

"There is no self besides the EGO!"

 

:lol:

[Jetsun]

Yes, it is possible! Reduce our Ego until it is destroyed is to return to the state of a baby! What a great achievement! When rudementary functions to communicate with the outer world remain, it's maybe like becoming a mentally retarded.

 

That is more or less what Freud said about people on the spiritual quest, that all they want to do is return to the comfort and oneness of being in the womb rather than face up to the harsh realities of life, they want to regress rather than evolve, which is probably true for a lot of people but not all I think.

[Wells]

I think the 'true self' includes the id, superego and ego if you want to use that model, it isn't just the ego without the other parts.

Good insight! When we say our whole psyche is our true self then it certainly includes everything that's in it including maybe an inferior complex and so on.

 

In my opinion a reasonable "individuation" (=Enlightenment in a psychological sense) should be dissolving all the other parts of the psyche into free libido (the stuff they're made of) and then sucking them into the Ego to feed it...and so the psyche becomes a whole conscious individual that knows and controls his whole being through and through.

 

Edit: Maybe the functions of the Id that keep the body function should be left out of this process and remain as a sole complex!

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

That is more or less what Freud said about people on the spiritual quest, that all they want to do is return to the comfort and oneness of being in the womb rather than face up to the harsh realities of life, they want to regress rather than evolve, which is probably true for a lot of people but not all I think.

True. But returning to become a baby is a dumb way to achieve that. See my previous post for a better one.

[Mahberry]

So, who's the fake self?

[Wells]

So, who's the fake self?

I don't know what you mean by that. There is no false self. When you mean the mask that people show to others in society to hide their true being, it's called persona. That's only a mask, a function to deal with the outer world but the person normally doesn't really identify with that.

 

There are cases where peoples with personality disorders have developed a "false self" because their "true self" is crippled beyond repair by traumata. Like in the case of the "narcissistic personality disorder" (NPD). This "false self" is normally built after their ideals and appears "larger than life" and has uncanny abilities to manipulate other people to get them to do what the narcissist wants them to do and it's not able to feel emotions but good at imitating them. The true predators in humankind (besides psychopath's of course!).

 

A quote about the Narcissist's "false self":

Why does the narcissist conjure up another Self? Why not simply transform his True Self into a False one?

Answer:

 

Once formed and functioning, the False Self stifles the growth of the True Self and paralyses it. Henceforth, the True Self is virtually non-existent and plays no role (active or passive) in the conscious life of the narcissist. It is difficult to "resuscitate" it, even with psychotherapy.

 

This substitution is not only a question of alienation, as Horney observed. She said that because the Idealised (=False) Self sets impossible goals to the narcissist, the results are frustration and self hate which grow with every setback or failure. But the constant sadistic judgement, the self-berating, the suicidal ideation emanate from the narcissist's idealised, sadistic, Superego regardless of the existence or functioning of a False Self.

 

There is no conflict between the True Self and the False Self.

 

First, the True Self is much too weak to do battle with the overbearing False. Second, the False Self is adaptive (though maladaptive). It helps the True Self to cope with the world. Without the False Self, the True Self would be subjected to so much hurt that it will disintegrate. This happens to narcissists who go through a life crisis: their False Ego becomes dysfunctional and they experience a harrowing feeling of annulment.

 

The False Self has many functions. The two most important are:

 

1. It serves as a decoy, it "attracts the fire". It is a proxy for the True Self. It is tough as nails and can absorb any amount of pain, hurt and negative emotions. By inventing it, the child develops immunity to the indifference, manipulation, sadism, smothering, or exploitation - in short: to the abuse - inflicted on him by his parents (or by other Primary Objects in his life). It is a cloak, protecting him, rendering him invisible and omnipotent at the same time.

2. The False Self is misrepresented by the narcissist as his True Self. The narcissist is saying, in effect: "I am not who you think I am. I am someone else. I am this (False) Self. Therefore, I deserve a better, painless, more considerate treatment." The False Self, thus, is a contraption intended to alter other people's behaviour and attitude towards the narcissist.

 

These roles are crucial to survival and to the proper psychological functioning of the narcissist. The False Self is by far more important to the narcissist than his dilapidated, dysfunctional, True Self.

 

The two Selves are not part of a continuum, as the neo-Freudians postulated. Healthy people do not have a False Self which differs from its pathological equivalent in that it is more realistic and closer to the True Self.

 

It is true that even healthy people have a mask [Guffman], or a persona [Jung] which they consciously present to the world. But these are a far cry from the False Self, which is mostly subconscious, depends on outside feedback, and is compulsive.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dorian Black

[Jetsun]

So, who's the fake self?

 

As a child you develop an ego to survive in the world and to do so usually involves identifying parts of you which are socially acceptable to the world and parts which aren't, and those which aren't acceptable are cast out from you into unconsciousness or the dark. So in a sense we all end up fake at some point with a persona which we present as our face to the world and most people remain fake for their entire lives because they never go through the process of becoming a mature adult by reclaiming all that they had to cast out as a child, they never regain their wholeness. The reclaiming of all that from the unconscious is the heroes quest talked about in all the myths, the journey to the underworld to conquer the demons and forces inside of you.

 

Which is why psychological breakdowns and crisis can be such a blessing because they force you to go through this process of maturity, but in the current age without any real understanding of mythology or real psychology they are treated as diseases and a person is drugged up rather than supported through it.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Jetsun

[Wells]

As a child you develop an ego to survive in the world and to do so usually involves identifying parts of you which are socially acceptable to the world and parts which aren't, and those which aren't acceptable are cast out from you into unconsciousness or the dark. So in a sense we all end up fake at some point with a persona which we present as our face to the world and most people remain fake for their entire lives because they never go through the process of becoming a mature adult by reclaiming all that they had to cast out as a child, they never regain their wholeness. The reclaiming of all that from the unconscious is the heroes quest talked about in all the myths, the journey to the underworld to conquer the demons and forces inside of you.

 

Which is why psychological breakdowns and crisis can be such a blessing because they force you to go through this process of maturity, but in the current age without any real understanding of mythology or real psychology they are treated as diseases and a person is drugged up rather than supported through it.

Hmmm..I'm not sure I understand your statement entirely.

You don't have a self besides your Ego! The persona is not the Ego but a mask you show to the outside. But internally you don't identify with the mask...if you don't have a personality disorder and hate your Ego or so.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dorian Black

[C T]

"Psychology is singularly adapted for the use of youth; it has a large vocabulary and is, in its essence, a grand, riotous, complicated, smutty story. It also moves along tramlines and is dressed in uniforms. Youth, terrified by the roaring, multitudinous manifestations of life all around it, feels safe with psychology." -- James Briodie

 

Its becoming clear the usefulness of (mis)understanding the ego and all its associated functions. If only it was so simple to attain and maintain a state of clarity, all the associated dilemmas of not doing so will have been rectified ages ago. Heck, even the psychologists/analysts need their own kind to help them deal with their misunderstood and mistreated 'selfs'. Nonetheless, its big business, and understandably so.

[Jetsun]

Hmmm..I'm not sure I understand your statement entirely.

You don't have a self besides your Ego! The persona is not the Ego but a mask you show to the outside. But internally you don't identify with the mask...if you don't have a personality disorder and hate your Ego or so.

 

I guess what i'm saying is that most people grow up to identify with the mask/persona as who they are rather than their 'true self' or complete ego.

[Wells]

I guess what i'm saying is that most people grow up to identify with the mask/persona as who they are rather than their 'true self' or complete ego.

There is no true self or Ego in the beginning. It builds up the same time while building up your persona, your Superego, your body. Only your Id is already there from the beginning.

[C T]

There is no true self or Ego in the beginning. It builds up the same time while building up your persona, your Superego, your body. Only your Id is already there from the beginning.

This is in line with Buddhist psychology - there is no ego at the beginning. Excellent!

[Wells]

This is in line with Buddhist psychology - there is no ego at the beginning. Excellent!

Yeah, and if you would succesfully deconstruct fully the Ego and your Superego, you would revert to the state of a baby: Unable o think, to will, to act, to be in control. Only sponaneous affects from your Id and the outside world would dictate your whole being.

If not successfully deconstruct them fully, you would just stay with a weak personality.

Seems to be the buddhist destiny...

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dorian Black

[C T]

Yeah, and if you would succesfully deconstruct fully the Ego and your Superego, you would revert to the state of a baby: Unable o think, to will, to act, to be in control. Only sponaneous affects from your Id and the outside world would dictate your whole being.

If not successfully deconstruct them fully, you would just stay with a weak personality.

Seems to be the buddhist destiny...

Oh? Wow... fantastic!

 

Actually, in the higher teachings, the Buddha taught that since there is no ego from the beginning, there is nothing to deconstruct.

 

The construct was/is artificially built so that people can remove the idleness, see themselves as useful and worthwhile, by reinforcing a sort of dummy that was not there to begin with. Funny, isn't it?

Edited May 24, 2011 by CowTao

[Jetsun]

"Psychology is singularly adapted for the use of youth; it has a large vocabulary and is, in its essence, a grand, riotous, complicated, smutty story. It also moves along tramlines and is dressed in uniforms. Youth, terrified by the roaring, multitudinous manifestations of life all around it, feels safe with psychology." -- James Briodie

 

Its becoming clear the usefulness of (mis)understanding the ego and all its associated functions. If only it was so simple to attain and maintain a state of clarity, all the associated dilemmas of not doing so will have been rectified ages ago. Heck, even the psychologists/analysts need their own kind to help them deal with their misunderstood and mistreated 'selfs'. Nonetheless, its big business, and understandably so.

 

Yet Buddhism is not so hot on dealing with problems from your early years of development, so at least psychology is trying to tackle this area even if it's not hugely successful at least it's trying, so it's not all about money it's about trying to relieve some of the worst sorts of suffering.

 

Buddhism is about transcending a mature ego, it already assumes the ego you are working with is relatively mature without developmental issues, but what happens if you don't have a mature ego? one of the few places to turn is psychology, Ken Wilber explains in his work pretty well why this is the case and recommends western psychotherapy ahead of meditation for a lot of people.