[TTC Study] Chapter 40 of the Tao Teh Ching

[lienshan]

於 is one of the most requently used functional words in old Chinese. Semantically, 於 can be seen as a marker of "non-patient" roles, and it can introduce various nominal elements related to the verb except for typical patient. Syntactically, 於 can be seen as a marker of "non-object" constituents, and all the nominal elements introduced by 於 can not be analyzed as objects. The existence of 於 shows that the distinction between objects and non-objects was critical in old Chinese.

 

The above quote caused a change of mind concerning my Guodian translation:

 

返也 者道動也

弱也 者道之用也

天下之物生於有生於亡

 

The traditionalist reconstructed Tao.

The newcomer is about to use Tao.

The matter of the world gave birth to had been born to not being.

 

The first 於 in line 3 marks 有 as a "non-object".

So I have instead of 有 meaning 'existence' (objective) chosen past-time 'have had' as "non-objective".

Edited September 21, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Okay. Now I have no idea what we are talking about. Hehehe.

[lienshan]

Okay. Now I have no idea what we are talking about. Hehehe.

It's about your two favourite characters 有 'to have/to be' and 亡 almost equal to 無 'to not have'.

Manifested and not manifested ... but the character 於 marks 有 as 'not manifested'/'non-object'?

That's why I try solve the problem by translating the verb 有 in past time: 'have had/have been'.

But he does too have a pointe with the newcomer and future-time, that I still can't see ...

[Marblehead]

It's about your two favourite characters 有 'to have/to be' and 亡 almost equal to 無 'to not have'.

Manifested and not manifested ... but the character 於 marks 有 as 'not manifested'/'non-object'?

That's why I try solve the problem by translating the verb 有 in past time: 'have had/have been'.

But he does too have a pointe with the newcomer and future-time, that I still can't see ...

 

Hehehe. Yeah, the Manifest and the Mystery. The Manifest can be named and talked about. The Mystery, full potential, has not shown it face yet so it cannot be named not can it be talked about. (It can, however, be realized.)

 

The Manifest is objective reality whereas the Mystery can only be spoken of subjectively if at all.

 

Anyhow, to know we don't know is better, I suppose. At least that is what Lao Tzu said. (Once we "know" we close our mind to other possibilities.)

 

But then, the Manifest returns to the Mystery so whatever it is we can say about the Manifest is only in the "now" moment.

 

 

I doubt I helped any but it felt good saying all that. Hehehe.

[lienshan]

The Manifest is objective reality whereas the Mystery can only be spoken of subjectively if at all.

The Manifest is not objective reality when put in past-time:

 

The traditionalist reconstructed Tao.

The newcomer is about to use Tao.

The matter of the world gave birth to had been born to not being.

 

The Mystery can we speak of when you open the chapter 72 discussion

[Marblehead]

The Manifest is not objective reality when put in past-time:

 

The traditionalist reconstructed Tao.

The newcomer is about to use Tao.

The matter of the world gave birth to had been born to not being.

 

The Mystery can we speak of when you open the chapter 72 discussion

 

Hehehe. Well, I did say in that second to last statement that we can speak only to the "now" moment of the manifest. The past no longer exists, the future isn't here yet, all we have is the "now" moment.

 

Funny though, oftentimes by the time we realize the "now" moment it is too far in the past to do anything about it.

 

Yeah, since no one is talking about Chapter 71 (there really isn't much that can be said) I suppose it is time for Chapter 72.

[lienshan]

Hehehe. Well, I did say in that second to last statement that we can speak only to the "now" moment of the manifest. The past no longer exists, the future isn't here yet, all we have is the "now" moment.

 

Funny though, oftentimes by the time we realize the "now" moment it is too far in the past to do anything about it.

The Guodian line has only one 有 while the other versions have two 有有 creating two lines:

 

天下之物生於有 有生於亡

 

The things of the world originate in being,

And being originates in nonbeing.

 

So what had been a chapter about 'Tao & now',

became a chapter about 'Tao & manifested & not manifested'.

 

The change was caused by 於 loosing its 'non-object' function in Qin/Han dynasty times.

[Marblehead]

The things of the world originate in being,

And being originates in nonbeing.

 

I know that!!!! Hehehe.

 

So what had been a chapter about 'Tao & now',

became a chapter about 'Tao & manifested & not manifested'.

 

The change was caused by 於 loosing its 'non-object' function in Qin/Han dynasty times.

 

And it is already understood that I apply my understandings to what I read. (I don't claim to be a Sage therefore I am allow to have my own opinions. Hehehe.)

 

One cannot honestly speak of Tao without allowing for the inclusion of "everything". That's just the way it is.

 

I leave it to you to do the translations. I respond to what you say.

[GOOWDAY]

This is my favorite part.As a system thinking,40 and 41 can join together,Then there is a amazing idea:

 

反也者 道之动也 弱也者 道之用也

天下之物生于有 有生于无

道生一 一生二 二生三 三生万物

万物负阴而抱阳 中气以为和

 

 

Though it is hard to understand and explain,But it did make a very clear statement:

 

天下之物生于有 有生于无

道生一 一生二 二生三 三生万物

 

This is another verion about the secret of creature.Normally what laozi said just considered as a joke,But this saying is more

 

helpfull for my understanding of evolution ,Another way defferent to the 'nature select' and 'intelligence design'.

 

Years ago I translated ' 三生万物 ' to ' Three creates the all '.

[Marblehead]

 

Years ago I translated ' 三生万物 ' to ' Three creates the all '.

 

This would be valid, I think, if we considered the three to be Mystery (potential), Yin, and Yang. (I normally consider Yin and Yang to be polarities of Chi so my actual thinking would be that Two (Mystery and Chi) creates (gave birth to) all things (Manifestations).

[ChiDragon]

This is my favorite part.As a system thinking,40 and 41 can join together,Then there is a amazing idea:

 

反也者 道之动也 弱也者 道之用也

天下之物生于有 有生于无

道生一 一生二 二生三 三生万物

万物负阴而抱阳 中气以为和

 

 

Though it is hard to understand and explain,But it did make a very clear statement:

 

天下之物生于有 有生于无

道生一 一生二 二生三 三生万物

 

This is another verion about the secret of creature.Normally what laozi said just considered as a joke,But this saying is more

 

helpfull for my understanding of evolution ,Another way defferent to the 'nature select' and 'intelligence design'.

 

Years ago I translated ' 三生万物 ' to ' Three creates the all '.

 

Yes, GOOWDAY...

 

1 .天下之物生于有 有生于无

2. 道生一 一生二 二生三 三生万物

 

It makes lots of sense. For me to understand it better, I tend to translate 有(you) as the Visible and 无(wu) the Invisible. In Chapter 1, Tao is the Invisible and Visible. Hence, 道生一 is the Invisible(道) engenders the Visible(一).

[dust]

返也者 Returning

道動也 Is caused by the Way;

溺也者 Weakness

道之用也 Is used by the Way;

天下之勿 All things under Heaven

生於又 Are born of being,

生於亡 Are born of not being

 

 

hmm..very similar to Henricks this time

[Marblehead]

I don't like the word "weakness". I've argued that many times. Flexible is the proper word.

[dust]

Yeah. I don't like the line much (the way I've translated it). A thinker.

[Marblehead]

Stephen Mitchell uses the word "yielding" in that line instead of "weakness" as does Thomas Cleary.

[ChiDragon]

Stephen Mitchell uses the word "yielding" in that line instead of "weakness" as does Thomas Cleary.

 

Do you think Tao does any "yielding"......???

 

Well, I don't like it any better than the character 弱 (weakness) was used. BTW, sometimes, the way that classics were written do not have to make sense to the eyes of the reader. Hence, it was even to a native speaker. Especially, it was translated into another language; further misleading will be introduced due to the stubbornness of all the languages. IMO The best thing to do is translate it as close as possible even it doesn't make any sense. It is only the interpretation, rather than the translation, which will make sense and matters. Reluctantly, shall we yield to the mysterious subtlety of this ancient masterpiece of classic.

 

Edited November 26, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Do you think Tao does any "yielding"......???

The grasses at the lake's shore yield to the strong winds so they do not become broken. Lots of examples of yielding in pure nature. Speaking of the Way of Tao here we must be all inclusive; all aspects of Tao.

 

Well, I don't like it any better than the character 弱 (weakness) was used.

Neither do I. I want it to be flexible.

 

BTW, sometimes, the way that classics were written do not have to make sense to the eyes of the reader. Hence, it was even to a native speaker. Especially, it was translated into another language; further misleading will be introduced due to the stubbornness of all the languages. IMO The best thing to do is translate it as close as possible even it doesn't make any sense. It is only the interpretation, rather than the translation, which will make sense and matters. Reluctantly, shall we yield to the mysterious subtlety of this ancient masterpiece of classic.

 

Hehehe.

 

Yes, I agree. It is sometimes difficult to understand what was in the mind of the person who first wrote the character on a piece of bamboo.

 

Oh, I am good at interpreting. A statement I use often "... my opinion and understanding ...". I don't have a problem with replacing "weak" with flexible. Weak is for the Christians who got ate up by the lions. And no, the weak will never inherit the earth. Life doesn't work that way.

 

It are the flexible who move out of the way so that tigers and rhinos do them no harm.

[dawei]

IMO, the proper understand is to watch a bird fly and see the gentle interaction of the wings effortlessly gliding along, rising and falling according to their whim,... and the ease with which the water glides along effortlessly in its path...

 

In this exercise, I found that I used the word "glide" two times...

 

This means the action is not 'owned' alone... there is interaction in the meaning.

 

 

Home-bound-flight is our movement;

Gliding-along is our function.

 

The way/drift/journey outward is but along the path of return...

[Marblehead]

Home-bound-flight is our movement;

Gliding-along is our function.

I can easily accept that.

[ChiDragon]

The grasses at the lake's shore yield to the strong winds so they do not become broken. Lots of examples of yielding in pure nature. Speaking of the Way of Tao here we must be all inclusive; all aspects of Tao.

Well, the winds are active; and the grasses are passive. They are only interacting, thus there was no yielding.

 

天地不仁

以萬物為芻狗

Nature has no mercy.

It treats all things as straw dogs.

 

Isn't this inclusive enough; all aspects of Tao....???

Edited November 27, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Well, the winds are active; and the grasses are passive. They are only interacting, thus there was no yielding.

 

天地不仁

以萬物為芻狗

Nature has no mercy.

It treats all things as straw dogs.

 

Isn't this inclusive enough; all aspects of Tao....???

No. You are going to have to keep your straw dogs. I am not going to be anyone's dog, straw or real.

 

And I'm not very passive either. And I don't yield often. But I do try to remain flexible.

[dawei]

I think the wind and grass are equally active and passive... there is always a force they are interacting with in the end.

[Marblehead]

Just as with the martial arts.

[ChiDragon]

No. You are going to have to keep your straw dogs. I am not going to be anyone's dog, straw or real.

 

And I'm not very passive either. And I don't yield often. But I do try to remain flexible.

 

hmmmm.....

What make you think that you are exclusive from Tao.......???

[Marblehead]

 

hmmmm.....

What make you think that you are exclusive from Tao.......???

I never suggested I am. However, I will not lay down passively and let people walk all over me. That is to say, I am not a straw dog.

 

Weakness is being the straw dog. I always leave the party when people start getting drunk - before the straw dogs are thrown into the gutter.