Simplest and quickest method to reach Enlightment?

[doc benway]

I am curious what you define enlightenment to be, if we are all already enlightened.

After reading your question, I realized that I am completely incapable of providing an answer.

I thought about how I might respond for a bit and then I decided to take a hot bath because my muscles are sore from practicing this morning. After listening to music for a bit (a beautiful CD by Luisa Maita), I picked up a book sitting nearby. I opened it to where I had left off 2 weeks ago and here is what I read:

 

"Later, when talking to his disciples, the Master was more forceful. "Concepts define," he said. "To define is to destroy.

Concepts dissect Reality. And what you dissect you kill."

"Are concepts then quite useless?"

"No. Dissect a rose and you will have valuable information - and no knowledge whatsoever - of the rose. Become a

scholar and you will have much information - but no knowledge whatsoever - of Reality."

[Otis]

Yup. Nuf said.

I've heard that the quickest method to reach enlightenment is to try to find a decent looking condo in Oslo that is actually affordable.

 

h

LOL! Is that like a koan, a problem without a solution?

[C T]

Are you riding your thoughts? I don't think so. I think the opposite is true - your thoughts are riding you.

Am i riding my thoughts? Perhaps.

 

Are my thoughts riding me? Perhaps.

 

Keen observation, by the way.

[StoneHead]

Am i riding my thoughts? Perhaps.

Are my thoughts riding me? Perhaps.

 

Seems there are two separated entities, the you and your thoughts. So the question is which of them are you?

[C T]

Seems there are two separated entities, the you and your thoughts. So the question is which of them are you?

Yeah.. if i see 'me', and then this 'me' engages itself to see 'my thoughts', it would appear that there are two (maybe more?) separate entities. We do agree, i hope, that its an 'if', yes?

 

I have always suspected that appearances could be deceptive, and by acknowledging this potential within all appearances, it would appear that they simply come and go with or without any attempt on my part to interfere. Through habitual forces and tendencies, if i allow myself to chase after these appearances, then the question arise - would they (whatever appears) become even more warped in the process?

 

So, am i 'me', or are my thoughts 'me', or does 'me' also exist within the potential of where these thoughts could lead? If i then choose to identify with the ever-evolving potentialities of thought as belonging to 'me' as much as all the other aspects of mind do, then i would hope that this will make 'me' better equipped so as not to unconsciously and inadvertently find, when its too late, that i am being ridden by my thoughts. This is the plan anyways.

Edited May 30, 2011 by CowTao

[bbsoft0]

So, am i 'me', or are my thoughts 'me', or does 'me' also exist within the potential of where these thoughts could lead? If i then choose to identify with the ever-evolving potentialities of thought as belonging to 'me' as much as all the other aspects of mind do, then i would hope that this will make 'me' better equipped so as not to unconsciously and inadvertently find, when its too late, that i am being ridden by my thoughts. This is the plan anyways.

 

 

In Mysterious Scripture of the Grand Cavern one can read about

The Five Difficulties

1.Giving to the poor when one is oneself poor

2.studying the Dao when one is rich and powerful

3.Controling one's destiny to achieve deathlessness

4.Being able to see the scriptures

5.Being born at the time when the Sage of the Latter Age will appear

 

One difficulty which I see is controlling your thoughts when there are drips in the sea of consciousness.

If someone would inject you with steroids directly in the brain, would you "ride your thoughts" or would you "being ridden by the thoughts"?

Could you maintain perfect clarity and stillness in these conditions?

 

Or someone who is awake and already enlightened, can maintain his enlightenment when somebody physically covers his pineal gland with toxins and steroids?

 

Can a person lose his enlightenment? And if yes, how can he get it back if he has the difficulties described above?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

One difficulty which I see is controlling your thoughts when there are drips in the sea of consciousness.

If someone would inject you with steroids directly in the brain, would you "ride your thoughts" or would you "being ridden by the thoughts"?

Could you maintain perfect clarity and stillness in these conditions?

 

Or someone who is awake and already enlightened, can maintain his enlightenment when somebody physically covers his pineal gland with toxins and steroids?

 

Can a person lose his enlightenment? And if yes, how can he get it back if he has the difficulties described above?

 

It seems to me that a fully enlightened master would have an attitude towards this difficulty that would allow him to transcend it's hold.

 

There is really very different understandings of what is meant by Enlightenment or Awakening, however. Many seem to suggest that it's possible for an Enlightened master to feel negative emotions like vengeance and hatred, while others say that these feelings are totally and forever detached if the person is truly a Buddha.

 

In regards to sound: There is a great amount of information that can be transferred through sound -- this is why most people seem to agree that music is the most direct of the art forms since the musicians inner being can be expressed in one note. This can encompass the attitude, emotion, endurance, pleasure, tranquility, discipline, attention, all of these things all at once just by being fully connected to the instrument. Singing bowls seem to radiate the state of enlightenment, though they don't adapt to situations like a Buddha.

 

Sound and frequency are definitely very powerful on our internal states, where Enlightenment occurs, so I can see how they would be a very direct connection to higher states. However, the medicine should be specific to the ailment, so sound might be the quickest for one, while getting kicked in the face might be the most expedient for another..

[C T]

 

One difficulty which I see is controlling your thoughts when there are drips in the sea of consciousness.

If someone would inject you with steroids directly in the brain, would you "ride your thoughts" or would you "being ridden by the thoughts"?

Could you maintain perfect clarity and stillness in these conditions?

 

Or someone who is awake and already enlightened, can maintain his enlightenment when somebody physically covers his pineal gland with toxins and steroids?

 

Can a person lose his enlightenment? And if yes, how can he get it back if he has the difficulties described above?

Not sure where this is coming from. Its not easy to relate to probable scenarios of which i have no personal experience of. At best one could only speculate the result, which could potentially lead to further imagination-aided confusion and unnecessary conflated-like views. Possible causes for disagreement and arguments could arise, and this is not at all beneficial.

 

A spiritual life does not depend on how enlightened one is, or how long or under what circumstances can enlightenment be maintained, and what happens when it loses its supposedly wonderful effects. It is not very helpful to equate enlightenment, with, say, pleasurable states of excitement and anticipation.

 

As the Buddha had said, "It is not on the view that the world is eternal, or that it is finite, that body and soul are distinct, or that the Buddha exists after death that the religious life depends. Whether these views or their opposites are held, there is still rebirth, there is old age, there is death, and grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow and despair... I have not spoken to these views because they do not conduce to an absence of passion, to tranquility, and to Nirvana. And what have I explained? Suffering have I explained, the cause of suffering, the end of suffering, and the Path that leads to the end of suffering have I explained. For this is useful to the wise."

[goldisheavy]

I read about a discussion between two enlightened buddist monks... don't remember where

The youngest asked the master about the quickest way to reach enlightment, and the master replied there

are many paths, but the quickest is through sound.

 

Did any of you reached enlightment this way? Can you share specific sounds, ideas, etc?

 

I found a very special file on youtube that really works at quieting the monkey mind.

The frequency of the sound has deep and profound effects, has some vibrational qualities.

 

Please share your thoughts.

 

The quickest way is to stare at the wall for 9 years, or to tear off your arm in front of a qualified master. Losing an index finger worked for one guy, or so I am told.

[thelerner]

Seems like we're 'emptying the barrel' on this dubious question. So I'll add:

 

 

Quickest Way: Give up on the concept of Enlightenment and practice extreme kindness to others and onesself.

[JustARandomPanda]

unfortunately there is no pill your can take or quick fix to bring you there yet, all the real paths I've read about require lifetimes of daily committed practice. In a Buddhist sense Daniel Ingram, Jed Mckenna, and Stephen Norquist might get you there in 3 to 5 years, but I really don't know from personal experience as what they offer really isn't what I am seeking. I see enlightenment as a worthy goal but ultimately futile if it is lost at death and you are reincarnated in an unenlightened state again.

 

 

I haven't finished reading this thread yet but I wanted to state my own beliefs here. This statement by More got me thinking about them. I'm sure other people will disagree with me but I'm just stating what I personally think about the issue.

 

I don't believe it is futile to practice toward Enlightenment ever. Yes, even if the mindstream that is the ultimate me gets reborn in an unenlightened state the next time around. I am inclined to thinking that no work, no effort toward a goal is ever lost. Once it's done it's there for good.

 

Gurdjieff mentioned this as well. One chapter in his book Meetings with Remarkable Men discusses this very thing. How no work, no effort is ever lost. And his teaching this same thing is mentioned in Oupensky's book In Search of the Miraculous. I supsect this is part of the reason why the Buddha included Right Livelihood in his Noble 8 Fold Path. It is a specific application that no effort is ever lost. The Universe (which I view as a hologram) always remembers. And the seeds of that effort will someday sprout. This persona that the unenlightened me views as "me" won't be around to reap the rewards but the mindstream - the "real" me someday will.

 

Practicing I believe generates a force or compulsion to do yet more practicing that will carry through to other lifetimes.

 

Now the next round of lives one might not be fortunate enough to be born in a place to learn about doing the practices neccessary to bring Enlightenment about. But someday such opportunities and the desire to respond in kind will come around again.

 

Effort toward Enlightenment - if that is what you want - will never go to waste.

[Jetsun]

I haven't finished reading this thread yet but I wanted to state my own beliefs here. This statement by More got me thinking about them. I'm sure other people will disagree with me but I'm just stating what I personally think about the issue.

 

I don't believe it is futile to practice toward Enlightenment ever. Yes, even if the mindstream that is the ultimate me gets reborn in an unenlightened state the next time around. I am inclined to thinking that no work, no effort toward a goal is ever lost. Once it's done it's there for good.

 

Gurdjieff mentioned this as well. One chapter in his book Meetings with Remarkable Men discusses this very thing. How no work, no effort is ever lost. And his teaching this same thing is mentioned in Oupensky's book In Search of the Miraculous. I supsect this is part of the reason why the Buddha included Right Livelihood in his Noble 8 Fold Path. It is a specific application that no effort is ever lost. The Universe (which I view as a hologram) always remembers. And the seeds of that effort will someday sprout. This persona that the unenlightened me views as "me" won't be around to reap the rewards but the mindstream - the "real" me someday will.

 

Practicing I believe generates a force or compulsion to do yet more practicing that will carry through to other lifetimes.

 

Now the next round of lives one might not be fortunate enough to be born in a place to learn about doing the practices neccessary to bring Enlightenment about. But someday such opportunities and the desire to respond in kind will come around again.

 

Effort toward Enlightenment - if that is what you want - will never go to waste.

 

I think Gurdjieff said that all efforts towards self observation and self remembering are never wasted, but that doesn't include all efforts as some efforts may have nothing to do with or even oppose self remembering.

 

The way I see it is that the road towards enlightenment is one of subtraction, so you are continually cutting away what is not you in order to find out what you are, so all methods of letting go are never wasted as you have let go of one extra thing which is not you, so you have dropped an identification. So theoretically it could be possible for us to see that we are enlightened already in any moment just by dropping all that we are not and seeing what is left, so for some people no effort or years of practice is necessary as they can let go completely of everything in a single moment, but for most of us we need to slowly let go of our identifications one by one over many years.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I read about a discussion between two enlightened buddist monks... don't remember where

The youngest asked the master about the quickest way to reach enlightment, and the master replied there

are many paths, but the quickest is through sound.

 

Did any of you reached enlightment this way? Can you share specific sounds, ideas, etc?

 

I found a very special file on youtube that really works at quieting the monkey mind.

The frequency of the sound has deep and profound effects, has some vibrational qualities.

 

Please share your thoughts.

 

 

Aha!

 

I was going through "A Buddhist Bible" (Edited by Goddard, around page 257. The sutra goes from page 111 to 275) and started reading part of the Surangama Sutra:

 

There are a few pages where The Buddha looks at different ways of coming to enlightenment, showing how they cannot do it through peaceful mind, seeing, thinking, breath, contact, etc., and then when he comes to sound, he says, essentially, that the nature of sound is the most accomodating to enlightenment since "it is felt in both motion and silence...." and explains the nature of sound for several paragraphs.

 

This would make sense as to why the monk would also say this.

 

Other things in this sutra, however, provide very lengthy qualifications for true enlightenment, so it's really not so simple

 

Though, the path is still a beauty unto itself

[三江源]

To answer oringinal post,I dont know much about enligtement ,but my main tool is listening to a sound resonating within me.It is a technique with which one learns to dissolve into the sound and can be practised constantly.It is good way to learn to be in tune.Cosmic tune.

This sound is not fictional or imagined or hummed.I love it ,it is my home.

 

Where did you learn this groovy thing, suninmyeyes? I have done some of this in Kriya yoga, and so am intrigued.. glad it works so beautifully for you. I could do with listening inwardly more, I dont think my ears are properly included in what I'm about, really, they are just hanging around on the sides of my head...

[bbsoft0]

Thanks a lot !

I found a reference to this

"Penetration Through Sound", the first of the "Twenty-five Methods of Complete Penetration"

 

http://www.purifymind.com/SurangamaSutraChan.htm

 

"When questioned by the Buddha, I interpreted them correctly and the Tathagata sealed my awakening by naming me Ajnata (The Wondrous Sound Is Secret and Complete). I attained Arhatship by means of sound. As the Buddha now asks about the best means of perfection, to me sound is the best according to my personal experience."

 

 

It seems that this method of enlightenment through sound is also used in Zen (sometimes reffered to as "suizen" or blowing zen)

[三江源]

I think Gurdjieff said that all efforts towards self observation and self remembering are never wasted, but that doesn't include all efforts as some efforts may have nothing to do with or even oppose self remembering.

 

The way I see it is that the road towards enlightenment is one of subtraction, so you are continually cutting away what is not you in order to find out what you are, so all methods of letting go are never wasted as you have let go of one extra thing which is not you, so you have dropped an identification. So theoretically it could be possible for us to see that we are enlightened already in any moment just by dropping all that we are not and seeing what is left, so for some people no effort or years of practice is necessary as they can let go completely of everything in a single moment, but for most of us we need to slowly let go of our identifications one by one over many years.

 

ah, for this to happen.. and for the long held structures not to reform.. tide coming in, going out, ebbing and flowing of 'self'... can we even imagine the not re-forming of identifications.. because as they weaken and drop away they become like dreams you cant recall, once morning comes.

[C T]

D.P>

Edited May 31, 2011 by CowTao

[C T]

 

 

I don't believe it is futile to practice toward Enlightenment ever. Yes, even if the mindstream that is the ultimate me gets reborn in an unenlightened state the next time around. I am inclined to thinking that no work, no effort toward a goal is ever lost. Once it's done it's there for good.

 

Gurdjieff mentioned this as well. One chapter in his book Meetings with Remarkable Men discusses this very thing. How no work, no effort is ever lost. And his teaching this same thing is mentioned in Oupensky's book In Search of the Miraculous. I supsect this is part of the reason why the Buddha included Right Livelihood in his Noble 8 Fold Path. It is a specific application that no effort is ever lost. The Universe (which I view as a hologram) always remembers. And the seeds of that effort will someday sprout. This persona that the unenlightened me views as "me" won't be around to reap the rewards but the mindstream - the "real" me someday will.

 

Practicing I believe generates a force or compulsion to do yet more practicing that will carry through to other lifetimes.

 

Now the next round of lives one might not be fortunate enough to be born in a place to learn about doing the practices neccessary to bring Enlightenment about. But someday such opportunities and the desire to respond in kind will come around again.

 

Effort toward Enlightenment - if that is what you want - will never go to waste.

Well observed, Serene Blue. So it is, as you have deduced - no effort is ever wasted, for every single act of purpose is deemed recorded, as seeds, in the mindstream. This mindstream is non-local - meaning not yours, not mine, not another's. When the right conditions arise, the seeds will sprout, and when conditions change, the seed and the results/effects changes accordingly. In this there is no suffering - as the personal self is removed from the equation, there remains just the coming and going of conditions.

 

Accordingly, it is the discernment of self as separate and distinct from this process, and the attempts to direct it based on ignorance or disregard of the 3 marks is that which binds one to the cycle of wrong views which perpetuates eternal death and rebirth as a continuum. This continuum, however, is an illusion. It only has basis insofar as the veil of ignorance is not removed. Once this veil is lifted, the continuum evaporates like steam rising into space. This is like removing a blindfold, and can often happen instantaneously. However, without Right Effort (as opposed to above-mentioned Right Livelihood), it becomes a struggle to adjust to this set of 'new eyes that sees clearly'.

 

It is said in the Teachings that mental energy is the force behind Right Effort. It can occur as either wholesome or unwholesome potential . The same type of energy that fuels desire, envy, aggression, hatred and violence can, on the other side fuel self-discipline, honesty, kindness and benevolence. Right Effort is detailed in four types of endeavors that rank in order of perfection:

 

1 - To prevent the arising of yet unarisen unwholesome states,

2- To abandon unwholesome states that have already arisen,

3 - To arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen, and

4 - To nurture and perfect wholesome states already arisen.

 

Following on from Right Effort, the seeds of Right Mindfulness is sown, and as they sprout, results in the growth of Right Concentration, which then matures (with practice), bears fruit, ripens and in turn sow the seeds of enlightenment.

 

Right Effort is like the fulcrum that supports leverage in all the other 7 perfections.

[stan herman]

 

. . .Following on from Right Effort, the seeds of Right Mindfulness is sown, and as they sprout, results in the growth of Right Concentration, which then matures (with practice), bears fruit, ripens and in turn sow the seeds of enlightenment. . .

 

 

Yes, if one's quest is truly for enlightenment (rather than to be a better person and/or make a better world) then here is the key--as an old monk said, "Practice, Practice, Practice". Clear the mind, minimize the moralizing and interpreting, and allow...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks a lot !

I found a reference to this

"Penetration Through Sound", the first of the "Twenty-five Methods of Complete Penetration"

 

http://www.purifymind.com/SurangamaSutraChan.htm

 

"When questioned by the Buddha, I interpreted them correctly and the Tathagata sealed my awakening by naming me Ajnata (The Wondrous Sound Is Secret and Complete). I attained Arhatship by means of sound. As the Buddha now asks about the best means of perfection, to me sound is the best according to my personal experience."

 

 

It seems that this method of enlightenment through sound is also used in Zen (sometimes reffered to as "suizen" or blowing zen)

 

 

I can't seem to find the same copy on-line, since the copy I have is partly omitted, but it's translated by Wai-Tao.

 

This part is rather central:

 

".. reverse your outward perception of hearing and listen inwardly for the perfectly unified and intrinsic sound of your own Mind-Essence, for as soon as you have attained perfect accommodation, you will have attained to Supreme Enlightenment[...]

 

Though one forsake all his worldly engagements, yet he cannot always be practicing by these various means; they are special means suitable for junior and senior disciples, but for laymen, this common method of concentrating the mind on its sense of hearing, turning it inward by this Door of Dharma to hear the Transcendental Sound of his Essential Mind, is most feasible and wise[...]

 

If any disciple should simply take this Intuitive Means for concentrating his mind in Dhyana Practice on this organ for Transcendental hearing, all other sense organs would soon come into Intrinsic Hearing, he would attain perfect accommodation of his True and Essential Mind."

 

Again, though, there is more to it which seems to be unavoidable, such as: kindness, compassion and vegetarianism, not even appearing to be unkind; truthfullness in acts and speech, and not assuming enlightenment that has not been attained, and not misleading others to this belief, nor greedily desiring the respect and offerings that follow this; begging for food and giving away whatever is not eaten at the time so that interdependence is accepted and embraced, seeing one's physical body as part of all other sentient beings and so acting accordingly.

 

Personally, I walk the path like a blind man after his bachelor party, but if I can give someone else a walking stick, I'm glad to be of help

(Just don't hate me if it was a parking meter )

Edited May 31, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Desert Eagle]

but my main tool is listening to a sound resonating within me.It is a technique with which one learns to dissolve into the sound and can be practised constantly.It is good way to learn to be in tune.Cosmic tune.

This sound is not fictional or imagined or hummed.I love it ,it is my home.

 

 

the simplest and quickest method to reach enlightenment is to do nothing.

Quit now.

You're already what you are.

The only thing preventing you from seeing that is you.

 

 

try to find a decent looking condo in Oslo that is actually affordable.

 

Stop thinking, and end your problems.

 

in my experience all four points are inter connected and vital to daily practice continuity and effectiveness. doing nothing and fazing out too much thinking is important for shikantaza meditation which is used in buddhist and taoist traditions. too much thinking leads to the energy being trapped in the head and interfering with chi circulation. listening to inner sound is included in that meditation. finding a stable and quiet position with regards to living place, job, community and lifestyle is important to reduce stress and distractions to meditation.

 

in zhineng/chilel, falun gong, and spring forest one must be connected with the universe in order to use its energy instead of the other methods that utilize the limited body energy.

 

I am not sure about enlightenment but I need to maintain practice to be in a higher state until I am full of energy. So I am concerned with maintaining and improving practice and being a better person and I think enlightenment is shifting to high gear and having these practices as second nature and can be done automatically. So perhaps enlightenment is the higher natural state of being with the higher vibrations that come with it.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Desert Eagle

[suninmyeyes]

Where did you learn this groovy thing, suninmyeyes? I have done some of this in Kriya yoga, and so am intrigued.. glad it works so beautifully for you. I could do with listening inwardly more, I dont think my ears are properly included in what I'm about, really, they are just hanging around on the sides of my head...

I have learned it through Kriya Yoga too,the way I was thought it there was a lot of emphasis was put on listening throughout the day and of course whilst sitting too.Some people can hear it so very loud even whilst going about their day.Throughout the years I have learned to listen and hear more and more.Nowdays if something is out of wack or needs adressing or I am really happy inside of me ,I hear it too not just feel it as we are made out of sound on some level.

It is very beutiful becouse sound is always here ,going on forever even if I became forgetful,it surfaces again calling me back in .Very comforting.

[Vajrahridaya]

I read about a discussion between two enlightened buddist monks... don't remember where

The youngest asked the master about the quickest way to reach enlightment, and the master replied there

are many paths, but the quickest is through sound.

 

Did any of you reached enlightment this way? Can you share specific sounds, ideas, etc?

 

I found a very special file on youtube that really works at quieting the monkey mind.

The frequency of the sound has deep and profound effects, has some vibrational qualities.

 

Please share your thoughts.

 

Sound is great! Lights too... But I will argue that the quickest way to attain true and lasting Buddhahood is through direct and prolonged physical presence of a Buddha.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, if one's quest is truly for enlightenment (rather than to be a better person and/or make a better world) then here is the key--as an old monk said, "Practice, Practice, Practice". Clear the mind, minimize the moralizing and interpreting, and allow...

 

That's good... I like that.