terrible misunderstanding of buddhism/taoism

[noahfor]

Hi,

 

I am extremely depressed and terrified since having a bad acid trip over two months ago and coming to believe in Buddhism/Taoism without having any real idea what they are about, except what I experienced in my trip. I know that sounds really stupid, and you can probably just laugh it off as something some stupid kid is thinking, but I am in pain. It is very real to me and very terrible. Can anyone clear some stuff up for me maybe, or explain why it's not as bad as it sounds?

 

There is no self. Therefore, there are no other selves. Therefore, everyone I've ever known is an illusion, so everything good and meaningful I've ever know, such as a parents love or just knowing my parents, is an illusion, and attachment, an image, and not real. There are no unique individuals. There is no real love because love is between people not just between random thoughts that come out of nowhere. It's all just a bunch of mind stuff coming to be out of nothing.

 

It's all just so horrible and lonely sounding. I mean I love my girlfriend. But, really I don't and it's just an illusion. She's just an illusion.

 

If we're all one, what is the point of my existence? If I die there's no change to either me, since I don't exist, or to the world.

 

It's just so bleak.

 

Is everything I hold sacred, such as a parents love, and love between two people really just an illusion? It's just selfishness somehow, or an attachment? I don't want more. I don't want to feel it again. I just want to know it was real and exactly as I experienced it. Is it just God loving himself playing some game?

 

How is this not horrible?

 

"We are all one" is probably the loneliest hell I can imagine. Pure hell. I can't imagine anything worse. Some lonely god playing hide and seek with himself to keep himself from knowing the terror of lonely eternity.

 

Now, there is probably something I'm not getting, or I'm not getting everything. I realize this. But, I can't stop feeling this way.

 

Here are some ideas that I have found somewhat comforting. Do they make any sense?

 

The self is like the way a person looks. There is no one thing that I person looks like. You can't point at anything and say "that's what they look like." You'll only ever get one image of one instant from one angle. But, you can always recognize someone you know.

 

Notes coming to be and passing away isn't silence, but a song. If you look for the song in the notes themselves you'll never find it.

Edited May 31, 2011 by noahfor

[Trunk]

Sounds like you got a deep experience of "no self" but without the accompanying aspects that hold it together. In the deep esoteric traditions there is training on how to integrate one's individuality with the more formless, sometimes called the "vajra body" or other various. Basically a kind of light body, and when the light body is really "lit up" the light consumes the "winds" of mundane individuality in a way that supports a very refined kind of individual coherence: the vajra body.

 

There is gradual process of harmonizing mundane existence towards transcendental experience, that includes nourishment and compassion, love. You just skipped way ahead for a sneak peek, but without supporting factors.

 

Granted that human psychology and interactions are laden with ... deep confusion, but its taking it too far to say that there is nothing to love, or doing well for one's self and for others.

 

kind regards,

Trunk

[Mandrake]

noahfor,

how much have you questioned your own conclusions? The first cake you bake usually isn't a success. Have you considered that you are stuck in a spiritual delusion, one that it is easy to become trapped in?

 

Delusions are many, and their nature is varied - "If I had more money, I would be more happy", "Nobody loves me", "If we don't take this disc from poin A to B, sun will not rise"[this has actually been practiced/believed!]... etc.

 

Just because your "insights" seem spiritual, they are not necessarily true. Question them ruthlessly, see why it can be different. Acid/drugs can mess around a lot with your energetic pathways, and give phantasms, but it can happen in a bad way - feces getting in your arterial pathways won't produce anything good; likewise, energy that bleeds through to the wrong pathways is also bad.

 

Have you considered that your brainchemistry has been disturbed by the acid? That's not the same as insight.

 

 

Mandrake

[Otis]

Hi Noahsfor.

 

I'm sorry that this is such a painful phase of your journey right now, but it does sound like some good is going to come of it.

 

I cannot tell you what is real, because that is beyond my possible knowledge. But I will share what I experience, and hope it provides some relief.

 

First: "there is no self". I don't take this quite so literally. Something is here, but it is not what I have thought it was. The self that I experienced is not who I am. So in order to find out what this something is, I need to humble what I have previously thought that "I" was.

 

This is most obvious, when we talk about self-definition. I have some ideas about who I am. They are not what's real, of course, they are merely a cobbling together of some external data, flavored by my wishes and fears. When I am in a bad mood, my fears dominate my self-image, when in an optimistic mood, it is my wishes. But neither is true.

 

There is a body, but it is not what I see in the mirror, which is colored by my shame and pride. It is not the idea I have about my body (too fat, too skinny, whatever). It is not what other people tell me my body is. It is not even what I experience when I close my eyes, and "listen" with my touch/kinesthesia senses (although that's getting closer). All of these things have been by shaped my experiences, by my wishes and fears.

 

Secondly: "there are no other selves". Indeed, all the people that I have ever experienced in my life, have been creations of my own mind. That does not mean, however, that other people do not actually exist. They just do not exist (as I do not) in the form that I imagine them.

 

When another person is before me, I do not experience them directly. What I experience, is an image in my brain, that my visual cortex has put together. That image, of course, is highly conditioned by my emotions about that person. I see beauty in people I love, and ugliness in those I hate.

 

When someone else talks, my mind puts their words together, to form a meaning that is significant to me. So, even though the actual person is using words, I always come to my own conclusions, as to what they mean. I hear attack when I'm feeling vulnerable; I hear foolishness when they disagree with me.

 

Consider your girlfriend. If you say that you know her very well, then to some degree you are speaking of delusion. Yes, you have been exposed to her behavior for awhile, and thus, may be able to predict some of her responses. But the "knowledge" itself is merely a mental model of her (and it will change according to your mood, just as does your self-image). At times, you will be surprised by her, because the actual person is deeper and more complex than our models will ever account for. Just as sometimes, you will be surprised by yourself, because your self-model is also simplistic and incomplete.

 

This does not mean, however, that you cannot love her. It just means that you cannot "know" her. You have to choose to love the mystery, the "not-knowing", since your brain can never fully encompass "who she is". This is what faith is: loving, even though there is no way of knowing.

 

The same can be said about all aspects of life. You can never truly know anything, because all you have are mental models. All mental models are just extrapolations, just "the best I have to work with". They are never "what actually is".

 

But you can still love life, if you choose to accept "not knowing". You can love other people, if you can still allow them to be mysteries. You can love yourself, without having to decide who you are.

 

So yes, I understand how awful it seems, to look at everything that you have thought you've known, and realize: none of this is so! It is all illusion. Indeed it is!

 

But the old path, of ignoring the person, but loving the illusion, that was no good. That's actually violence to the other person. If I think "my girlfriend is sweet and kind to me", then it feels like a betrayal when she is not. However, if I say "I love my girlfriend, whoever she is", then I leave her the freedom to exist, beyond my definitions.

 

Now that you know the person is an illusion, you can love for the sake of loving. When you "know", you exclude. For example, if you "know" there is one God, then all other possible explanations must be excluded. But if you open yourself to not knowing, then possibility remains wide open, and growth becomes readily available.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Otis

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I am one; and, I am all

you are one; and, you are all

 

to love all of humanity is to love oneself;

 

to be able to love one's self is to be able to love all sentient beings

[noahfor]

I don't believe I had any insights at all. I believe that I have a very confused, lonely, and in a way a very egotistical mind, and the drugs opened up a gateway to hell. I have been depressed and lonely for a very long time and that can make a person very self centered because one is always worrying about one's own condition. Yes, it could all be in my head, and yet it all fits together so seamlessly and subtly that it's hard to eradicate. I've been reading and reading, but it seems to only make it worse. But, I can't stop believing it. I just don't know how to stop believing something that seems so true. No matter what arguments I come up with, I just automatically doubt them because the self is an illusion and we are all one. I just believe those things and I can't stop.

 

I don't even mind if this is all just pretend, just as long as other people are not just illusions and are their own thinking, loving, laughing selves.

[Aaron]

I don't believe I had any insights at all. I believe that I have a very confused, lonely, and in a way a very egotistical mind, and the drugs opened up a gateway to hell. I have been depressed and lonely for a very long time and that can make a person very self centered because one is always worrying about one's own condition. Yes, it could all be in my head, and yet it all fits together so seamlessly and subtly that it's hard to eradicate. I've been reading and reading, but it seems to only make it worse. But, I can't stop believing it. I just don't know how to stop believing something that seems so true. No matter what arguments I come up with, I just automatically doubt them because the self is an illusion and we are all one. I just believe those things and I can't stop.

 

I don't even mind if this is all just pretend, just as long as other people are not just illusions and are their own thinking, loving, laughing selves.

 

Hello Noahfor,

 

As someone who has a bad trip or two, I can tell you first hand how devastating it can be. I don't think I'll ever be able to look at Star Trek Next Generation the same ever again. Anyways, you have gotten a skewed idea of no-self. I'll try and explain it as I understand it and how I relate it to my own experience, in the hopes that maybe it can lighten the load a bit.

 

First you have to understand the basis for the idea of no-self comes from the idea that everything that exists come from nothing. This idea stems from the notion that everything is connected in some way. Love and hate for instance are not separate experiences, but the same experience viewed differently. Cold and Hot is an even better example, the difference between cold and heat is the relative temperature, but in the end it is still just temperature. With that said no-self and self are the same experience, just different aspects of that experience. We can understand self quite clearly because we live in self every day, but understanding no-self is confusing, because, having only remembered the experience of self, the notion of no-self either seems improbable or in your case, absolutely terrifying.

 

No-self is really simply understanding yourself before you became self. It is understanding the nature of the universe, the void that existed before all things begin and understanding that this void still exists. To call it a void or nothing doesn't really explain it quite as it should, but without experiencing it, it is the closest description that one can come to.

 

When I first experienced no-self, I had no real guidance and didn't perceive it simply as nothing, but rather the natural state of the universe and me, that underneath everything that existed there really was no-existence. The notion that this no-existence is intricately linked to existence didn't come until later.

 

When people argue with me about this, it's really semantics that they are arguing about, because I understand the notion of what they are talking about, but have come to a different conclusion. Now the reason many traditions have lines of transmission is because of this simple fact. It allows someone to come to an understanding of no-self through a disciplined study that guides them in understanding how it fits into a specific ideology.

 

I think, though, that the idea that one can be free of self is an illusion in itself, that you can't have no-self without self, nor existence without non-existence. To place value on one more than the other is silly, in the sense that both are required for the universe to exist and not exist. This is the important thing to remember, merely understanding the original state does not preclude an evaporation of the self, but rather it allows one to understand the illusion of pain and suffering, the illusion of even joy and happiness, that in the end we are not locked into this world, but rather choose to be a part of the illusion.

 

If you really wish to understand the idea of no-self better I would recommend finding a Roshi and pursuing it further. In my own opinion the experience of someone who has come to an understanding of this phenomena is invaluable in fully understanding the notions presented. I'm positive most people will disagree with my own interpretation of it, but that doesn't matter, because in the end it doesn't matter.

 

What matters is that we understand that anything we think matters only matters because we think it does. A flower is simply a flower, it is only the idea that we value the flower for one reason or another that attaches us to that flower. When we can begin to see a flower simply as a flower and person simply as a person, and in seeing that cease to place value on one more than another, then we can truly understand the nature of suffering and from that understanding the nature of compassion.

 

I hope that helps to clarify it a bit.

 

Aaron

Edited May 31, 2011 by Twinner

[strawdog65]

Hello Noahfor,

 

As someone who has a bad trip or two, I can tell you first hand how devastating it can be. I don't think I'll ever be able to look at Star Trek Next Generation the same ever again. Anyways, you have gotten a skewed idea of no-self. I'll try and explain it as I understand it and how I relate it to my own experience, in the hopes that maybe it can lighten the load a bit.

 

First you have to understand the basis for the idea of no-self comes from the idea that everything that exists come from nothing. This idea stems from the notion that everything is connected in some way. Love and hate for instance are not separate experiences, but the same experience viewed differently. Cold and Hot is an even better example, the difference between cold and heat is the relative temperature, but in the end it is still just temperature. With that said no-self and self are the same experience, just different aspects of that experience. We can understand self quite clearly because we live in self every day, but understanding no-self is confusing, because, having only remembered the experience of self, the notion of no-self either seems improbable or in your case, absolutely terrifying.

 

No-self is really simply understanding yourself before you became self. It is understanding the nature of the universe, the void that existed before all things begin and understanding that this void still exists. To call it a void or nothing doesn't really explain it quite as it should, but without experiencing it, it is the closest description that one can come to.

 

When I first experienced no-self, I had no real guidance and didn't perceive it simply as nothing, but rather the natural state of the universe and me, that underneath everything that existed there really was no-existence. The notion that this no-existence is intricately linked to existence didn't come until later.

 

When people argue with me about this, it's really semantics that they are arguing about, because I understand the notion of what they are talking about, but have come to a different conclusion. Now the reason many traditions have lines of transmission is because of this simple fact. It allows someone to come to an understanding of no-self through a disciplined study that guides them in understanding how it fits into a specific ideology.

 

I think, though, that the idea that one can be free of self is an illusion in itself, that you can't have no-self without self, nor existence without non-existence. To place value on one more than the other is silly, in the sense that both are required for the universe to exist and not exist. This is the important thing to remember, merely understanding the original state does not preclude an evaporation of the self, but rather it allows one to understand the illusion of pain and suffering, the illusion of even joy and happiness, that in the end we are not locked into this world, but rather choose to be a part of the illusion.

 

If you really wish to understand the idea of no-self better I would recommend finding a Roshi and pursuing it further. In my own opinion the experience of someone who has come to an understanding of this phenomena is invaluable in fully understanding the notions presented. I'm positive most people will disagree with my own interpretation of it, but that doesn't matter, because in the end it doesn't matter.

 

What matters is that we understand that anything we think matters only matters because we think it does. A flower is simply a flower, it is only the idea that we value the flower for one reason or another that attaches us to that flower. When we can begin to see a flower simply as a flower and person simply as a person, and in seeing that cease to place value on one more than another, then we can truly understand the nature of suffering and from that understanding the nature of compassion.

 

I hope that helps to clarify it a bit.

 

Aaron

 

 

Beautifully said.

Especially that last paragraph....

[Stigweard]

[stan herman]

[doc benway]

A few things that may be worth thinking about.

 

People going through the natural process of Buddhist and Daoist cultivation have a much more gradual progression of feelings and experiences of what the self is and what it isn't and so forth. The idea of no-self is just another idea - it is not reality. Reality is much too subtle or complex to capture in a simple word or concept. Buddha introduced the concept simply as a challenge to the concept that existed at the time - that of Advaita Vedanta - the idea of one great Self. The idea of no-self was not intended to represent the truth or reality, just to point out that the Hindus were still clinging to a concept (the Self or Atman) and thus vulnerable to suffering as a result of their attachment.

 

You had an experience in which the feeling of self was severely and suddenly challenged and that can be very scary.

It's important to keep in mind that the experience you had was caused by intoxication with a synthetic drug - basically a toxin and it was a very traumatic one. It was not a natural experience or awakening.

Drugs often lie to us. They cloud true clarity of perception. They can be very harmful to susceptible people.

They emphasize certain things and hide others.

The conclusions we draw from drug related experiences are often faulty.

This is why it is critical to use drugs for spiritual purposes under experienced guidance, if at all.

 

You could be experiencing a condition known as de-personalization disorder. It can occur after use of hallucinogens and is similar to what you describe. There is a difference between what you are experiencing and the natural experience of connecting to something deeper and more profound that most people describe as a result of natural awakening. It is very rarely so traumatic and horrifying. There is often fear and difficulty but also great joy and love and feelings of peace and security and contentment. The very traumatic experiences are much more commonly associated with sudden, artificial, forced experience through drugs like LSD, Ayahuasca, Salvia Divinorum, and so on.

 

If the negative feelings continue I would suggest you considering talking to a mental health professional - preferably someone with some knowledge of some of these Eastern concepts. These concepts have been gaining considerable attention in the world of mental health. Therapists who work with techniques like ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) and some cognitive therapies are an example. You could also consider speaking to a spiritual advisor of your choice of denomination. Beware of depending solely on a bunch of strangers on a web forum to support you through something so traumatic. Many of us would love to help but a closer, more personal type of support may be more beneficial.

 

Good luck and feel free to send me a private message if you want to discuss anything further.

[noahfor]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm comforted by some of the ideas presented, but also by hearing the uncomfortable ones coming from a human.

 

One thing that I find very troubling is this:

 

To an ant, I am a giant. To a giant, I am an ant. To an even bigger giant, that giant is an ant.

 

There really are no giants or ants.

 

Likewise, to me, my sweet old Mom is just that, or can be that. But, to someone else, and even herself, she is something different. This seems very sad to me, like we might as well not know each other. Even if people aren't just one thing, can we even say anything true about them ever at all at any moment? Is there some perspective from which someone like Hitler would appear exactly as my mom appears to me?

 

I am going to see a mental health professional tomorrow morning.

Edited June 1, 2011 by noahfor

[Aaron]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm comforted by some of the ideas presented, but also by hearing the uncomfortable ones coming from a human.

 

One thing that I find very troubling is this:

 

To an ant, I am a giant. To a giant, I am an ant. To an even bigger giant, that giant is an ant.

 

There really are no giants or ants.

 

Likewise, to me, my sweet old Mom is just that, or can be that. But, to someone else, and even herself, she is something different. This seems very sad to me, like we might as well not know each other. Even if people aren't just one thing, can we even say anything true about them ever at all at any moment? Is there some perspective from which someone like Hitler would appear exactly as my mom appears to me?

 

I am going to see a mental health professional tomorrow morning.

 

Hello Noah,

 

I think talking to someone is a good idea, especially if you're depressed right now. There is no need to suffer, so do what you have to to get better.

 

As far as being ants, we really are ants, but remember ants serve a purpose, just because they are small doesn't mean they are meaningless. You have a purpose, even if there is something greater than you, that doesn't mean that your purpose has no meaning.

 

In regards to someone like Hitler appearing as your mom did, well that's how Hitler ran Germany, because people didn't see him as a threat. The problem is that we are fallible creatures. We will make mistakes in judging people's characters and even our own character, but that doesn't mean that because we make these mistakes, we are ourselves bad people.

 

The problem is that you are stuck on absolutes right now, good and evil, right and wrong, mothers and Hitler, when the reality is that you could never appreciate your mother if there were no Hitlers. Just like you could never appreciate right if there was no wrong. You need something to contrast it with to understand that it exists, otherwise it is just a null space with no point of reference.

 

Don't worry so much about these things, rather I suggest you do this, stay clear of hallucinogenics, watch a comedy tonight, go to bed, wake up tomorrow, and go see your counselor. If you need to talk to someone, then talk to them. If you really need to talk to someone, then give me a PM and I'll be happy to listen.

 

You are not alone in this world, in fact you have experienced something many others have. You will get through this, it just takes time to wrap yourself around it all. My first impulse was pretty similar to yours, but I got through it and eventually saw the beauty that exists with the ugly.

 

Aaron

Edited June 1, 2011 by Twinner

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Another thing to consider is that what is often translated as "Ego" or "Self" seems to really be referring to the Super-Ego, which is not really the Self. I've found that when sutras are referring to things like conceit and pride this is termed Egotism, but really these things belong to the Super Ego rather than the Ego. The Ego is like the integral Self, while the Super Ego is created by false beliefs made to protect the Self from low self-esteem symptoms.

 

I created a post about this not long ago which you might want to check out. Just click my profile and see Posts/A Century of mistranslating...

 

My more mild halucinogen experiences gave me the feeling that structural or paradignamic thinking, created by habit-thinking within cultural paradigms, were put on hold and so the world made more sense through a Zen and Taoist frame. Freud's definition of Ego would suggest that this was actually coming closer to the Self/Ego and clearing away some of the false beliefs created by the Super Ego. This was with magic mushrooms, however, which have more recently shown strong evidence of powerful therapeutic and curing abilities, especially for addiction and habitual criminal behavior. LSD is actually a mold that grows on rye, so it's also natural, but I know that it is too intense for me to mess with anymore, especially in any kind of recreational context.

 

You'll come down eventually. Drink some herbal tea and ride it out. I find sage tea to be quite grounding (the green cooking sage, not smudging sage as that is poisonous to ingest, and not in the good way ).

[deci belle]

[noahfor]

We're not all somehow having the exact same experience though are we? On some level there are different unique individuals?

[Mandrake]

We're not all somehow having the exact same experience though are we? On some level there are different unique individuals?

 

Exactly! The stringed together experiences are unique. The ongoing linking of the experiences that you have, will never be the same as mine; the potential and the path are different.

 

One of the things Daoism says, is that everything in this world is undergoing change and transformation; Buddhism says that phenomena can't stay static and permanent, but flow in a process. So these traditions don't say that everything is an illusion (an illusion needs a real counterpart).

 

So instead of this notion of small, permanent and nuclear self/soul/"I" that many people walk around with, you have something much more expanded, something that allows for change, is connected but simultanously unique and highly personal. We have a historical legacy, especially in the west, and thus a new concept of the self is usually a bit shocking to our habits.

 

In some sense, it's all about willingness/resistance to change, but at different levels - from changing work to changing what you want to be your "identity" of the moment - and when change is mastered, you flow and play along with the fluid existence, influencing it your way.

 

 

Mandrake

[Golden Path]

Stop taking acid and drugs! Only this can help you.

 

All your bad mood-because of the drugs. Our world is real and not an illusion.

 

To find what is the point of the existence, using this way and also thinking about "abstract" will lead absolutely to anything other than madness and crazy.

 

Best Regards

Edited June 1, 2011 by Golden Path

[Aaron]

We're not all somehow having the exact same experience though are we? On some level there are different unique individuals?

 

 

Remember when you were talking about ants? Well think of it like this, yes we are humans and there are billions of us, and if you look at us from afar we look quite similar, it is only when you look at us up closely that you can begin to see the differences.

 

In the same way, we can't experience things the same way, because we are not residing within the same space. Simply because I am viewing something from one corner of the room and you another, means that our experiences regarding that something are different. Yes we may have seen the same thing, but perhaps your view point had more light or less, so you saw it differently than I did.

 

The fact that we do experience things differently means that we are unique individuals. Yes there are universal experiences, but these universal experiences aren't really so universal, but rather quite common, so they are used to help us identify our own experiences with other people's experiences. The use of these universal experiences is itself an example of our uniqueness. If we were not unique we wouldn't need them to help relate our experience to other people's.

 

So again, you are unique. Your mother is unique. I am unique, even though I have a twin who is genetically the same as I am, simply because we have all experienced things differently.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Aaron

[gendao]

I don't see the problem?

 

When you wake up from a dream and suddenly realize it was all just a dream, do you get horribly depressed?

 

What would be horribly depressing to me is if samsaric life is simply as we know it with no deeper subreality free of human preferences and judgments. That one simply lives, works & dies. Why even bother, then?

 

Think about how you love your girlfriend.. Well, what is that based on, really? And why do you not love everyone equally? And what about those who don't get loved much in this world? Conditional love as you know it is great, but only because it is but a smithering taste of the totally unconditional cosmic love that the fabric of our submatrix is made of!

 

And even if you personally have a great life - what about others with horrible ones? How messed up would that be if that is simply how it is...with no deeper method behind the madness??

 

I personally like the idea of an underlying unity because it means that no matter what happens to us as individuals here, ultimately everything is "ok."

Edited June 1, 2011 by vortex

[StoneHead]

Hi,

 

I am extremely depressed and terrified since having a bad acid trip over two months ago and coming to believe in Buddhism/Taoism without having any real idea what they are about, except what I experienced in my trip. I know that sounds really stupid, and you can probably just laugh it off as something some stupid kid is thinking, but I am in pain. It is very real to me and very terrible. Can anyone clear some stuff up for me maybe, or explain why it's not as bad as it sounds?

 

There is no self. Therefore, there are no other selves. Therefore, everyone I've ever known is an illusion, so everything good and meaningful I've ever know, such as a parents love or just knowing my parents, is an illusion, and attachment, an image, and not real. There are no unique individuals. There is no real love because love is between people not just between random thoughts that come out of nowhere. It's all just a bunch of mind stuff coming to be out of nothing.

 

It's all just so horrible and lonely sounding. I mean I love my girlfriend. But, really I don't and it's just an illusion. She's just an illusion.

 

If we're all one, what is the point of my existence? If I die there's no change to either me, since I don't exist, or to the world.

 

It's just so bleak.

 

Is everything I hold sacred, such as a parents love, and love between two people really just an illusion? It's just selfishness somehow, or an attachment? I don't want more. I don't want to feel it again. I just want to know it was real and exactly as I experienced it. Is it just God loving himself playing some game?

 

How is this not horrible?

 

"We are all one" is probably the loneliest hell I can imagine. Pure hell. I can't imagine anything worse. Some lonely god playing hide and seek with himself to keep himself from knowing the terror of lonely eternity.

 

Now, there is probably something I'm not getting, or I'm not getting everything. I realize this. But, I can't stop feeling this way.

 

Here are some ideas that I have found somewhat comforting. Do they make any sense?

 

The self is like the way a person looks. There is no one thing that I person looks like. You can't point at anything and say "that's what they look like." You'll only ever get one image of one instant from one angle. But, you can always recognize someone you know.

 

Notes coming to be and passing away isn't silence, but a song. If you look for the song in the notes themselves you'll never find it.

 

I think what you experienced was the collapse (death) of mental concepts (beliefs) you had about you. Why is that so terrifying? Because you believe that this mental concepts (beliefs) about you are you.

[thelerner]

I'd also add, beware of taking little pieces of a religion to heart without a wider understanding of it. If we take things hodge podge we often miss the subtleties, conditions and nuances that come with them. Buddhism has many life affirming qualities and philosophies within it, that can lead to happiness and fulfillment. If told a Buddhist leader about it you're concerns you'd probably get a more balanced view then the heavy dogma that hit you.

 

The same goes for any religion, focus on only one point and you overlook 95% of the main teachings.

 

Professor Erasmus who teaches Buddhism talks about this split between nihilism and happiness in his book "The Gods Drink Whiskey". A great read, travel adventure and philosophy.

 

One thing I like about it is he never has 'Buddha says ..' without giving the sutra it comes from.

[C T]

 

Professor Erasmus who teaches Buddhism talks about this split between nihilism and happiness in his book "The Gods Drink Whiskey". A great read, travel adventure and philosophy.

 

One thing I like about it is he never has 'Buddha says ..' without giving the sutra it comes from.

I think i will buy this book. Thanks for the recommendation, Michael.

 

It was given the thumbs up by another professor in one of her blogs on her travels in SE Asia.

http://mmtriplog.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/book-review-the-gods-drink-whiskey/

[Non]

Hi,

 

I am extremely depressed and terrified since having a bad acid trip over two months ago and coming to believe in Buddhism/Taoism without having any real idea what they are about, except what I experienced in my trip. I know that sounds really stupid, and you can probably just laugh it off as something some stupid kid is thinking, but I am in pain. It is very real to me and very terrible. Can anyone clear some stuff up for me maybe, or explain why it's not as bad as it sounds?

 

There is no self. Therefore, there are no other selves. Therefore, everyone I've ever known is an illusion, so everything good and meaningful I've ever know, such as a parents love or just knowing my parents, is an illusion, and attachment, an image, and not real. There are no unique individuals. There is no real love because love is between people not just between random thoughts that come out of nowhere. It's all just a bunch of mind stuff coming to be out of nothing.

 

It's all just so horrible and lonely sounding. I mean I love my girlfriend. But, really I don't and it's just an illusion. She's just an illusion.

 

If we're all one, what is the point of my existence? If I die there's no change to either me, since I don't exist, or to the world.

 

It's just so bleak.

 

Is everything I hold sacred, such as a parents love, and love between two people really just an illusion? It's just selfishness somehow, or an attachment? I don't want more. I don't want to feel it again. I just want to know it was real and exactly as I experienced it. Is it just God loving himself playing some game?

 

How is this not horrible?

 

"We are all one" is probably the loneliest hell I can imagine. Pure hell. I can't imagine anything worse. Some lonely god playing hide and seek with himself to keep himself from knowing the terror of lonely eternity.

 

Now, there is probably something I'm not getting, or I'm not getting everything. I realize this. But, I can't stop feeling this way.

 

Here are some ideas that I have found somewhat comforting. Do they make any sense?

 

The self is like the way a person looks. There is no one thing that I person looks like. You can't point at anything and say "that's what they look like." You'll only ever get one image of one instant from one angle. But, you can always recognize someone you know.

 

Notes coming to be and passing away isn't silence, but a song. If you look for the song in the notes themselves you'll never find it.

 

 

story of my life. only .. you have a girlfriend, you have had success. the insanity and suffering of life for you is conceptual.. mine is reality it seems.

[noahfor]

I don't see the problem?

 

When you wake up from a dream and suddenly realize it was all just a dream, do you get horribly depressed?

 

What would be horribly depressing to me is if samsaric life is simply as we know it with no deeper subreality free of human preferences and judgments. That one simply lives, works & dies. Why even bother, then?

 

Think about how you love your girlfriend.. Well, what is that based on, really? And why do you not love everyone equally? And what about those who don't get loved much in this world? Conditional love as you know it is great, but only because it is but a smithering taste of the totally unconditional cosmic love that the fabric of our submatrix is made of!

 

And even if you personally have a great life - what about others with horrible ones? How messed up would that be if that is simply how it is...with no deeper method behind the madness??

 

I personally like the idea of an underlying unity because it means that no matter what happens to us as individuals here, ultimately everything is "ok."

 

I don't get horribly depressed waking up from a dream because usually I realize I'm waking up into a world where unique individuals, whom I know and have a real history with, actually exist, from one in which people don't actually have their own unique personalities, histories, feelings, or experiences.

 

I'm fine with loving everyone equally, but hopefully each love would have its own unique character and understanding, so that I'm loving the way people actually think and feel on the basis of who I am, and not just loving generically or anonymously a bunch of clones who happen to all be me.

Edited June 1, 2011 by noahfor