[TTC Study] Chapter 41 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[stan herman]

An other version

 

 

41. Some people perceive the way at once and join it. Some others glimpse its direction and discuss it in admiring words. But, like they would a dazzling panther, keep their distance from it. And some people ridicule the way with great enthusiasm. If the way were not embraced by some avoided by some and laughed at by some it would not be itself.

 

Those who laugh at the way can list its faults: Pointless, of no practical use, not for these times or cultures. For those who laugh, What is important is what can be counted. The core of life is of no concern. Acquisition is the focus of existence. Complexity is a fascination. And man's doings are all that can be discerned.

 

But eternity is for claim by the one who opens to know the whole. Strength and endurance are his who can feel the core of life. Skill is his who can go straight to the simple center. And laughter is his who can hear the greatest joke.

[Marblehead]

Thanks Stan. Yes, that discusses the concepts well, I think.

[manitou]

Wu-wei is the magic of not doing. Have you ever tried to discuss this little concept with someone who has never studied the Dao? It brings peals of uncontained laughter. My brother, a very smart attorney, looks at me with somewhat disdainful eyes because I have tried to explain this to him.

 

The idea that we 'let' things happen as opposed to 'make' things happen is totally foreign to people. To advance in the Dao is to trust the Universe more and more. I like to think that as bad as things appear to be, there really is a Dao force that knows what it's doing. The funny thing is that there are people like us Dao types, and others, who really are sorcerers of a sort, because we understand the magic of not doing. But nobody else in the world can see it, it seems.

 

My only conjecture on this is that we are intended to be a type of leavening on the bread to make it rise. We are cast about willy nilly all over the earth for a reason, methinks.

[anatman]

When the strong learn Tao, they practice it diligently;

When the average learn Tao, they practice it sometimes;

When the weak learn Tao, they laugh out loud;

Those who do not laugh do not learn at all.

Therefore it is said:

Who understands Tao seems foolish;

Who progresses in Tao seems to fail;

Who follows Tao seems to wander.

So the greatest force appears vulnerable;

The brightest truth appears coloured;

The richest character appears incomplete;

The strongest heart appears meek;

The most beautiful nature appears fickle;

So the square, perfected, has no corner;

Art, perfected, has no meaning;

Sex, perfected, has no climax;

Form, perfected, has no shape.

So Tao can not be sensed or known:

It transmits sensation and transcends knowledge.

 

 

i almost included the dudes paraphrase(can't think of a better term)but even for here,i couldn't print it.however,it does make sense.

may take on wu wei is from bruce lees masters thesis.basically,"be like water,it can take the form of whatever it is in,...in nature,there is no greater force".

[stan herman]

Wu-wei is the magic of not doing. Have you ever tried to discuss this little concept with someone who has never studied the Dao? It brings peals of uncontained laughter. My brother, a very smart attorney, looks at me with somewhat disdainful eyes because I have tried to explain this to him.

 

The idea that we 'let' things happen as opposed to 'make' things happen is totally foreign to people. To advance in the Dao is to trust the Universe more and more. I like to think that as bad as things appear to be, there really is a Dao force that knows what it's doing. The funny thing is that there are people like us Dao types, and others, who really are sorcerers of a sort, because we understand the magic of not doing. But nobody else in the world can see it, it seems.

 

My only conjecture on this is that we are intended to be a type of leavening on the bread to make it rise. We are cast about willy nilly all over the earth for a reason, methinks.

 

Coincidentally, I just posted a somewhat different point of view in "Tao Now". To me what Wu-wei is saying is not 'do nothing'--leave it all to the Tao. Rather each of us and our Tao are in partnership in the march of events. Just as we are not an element separated from God (or 'the Big System', if you prefer), but an integrated force in the matrix of existence.

Edited June 7, 2011 by stan herman

[Mr. T]

howdy!

 

well, the ancient sages had one thing for sure...people will laugh and criticize that which they don't understand. probably one of the biggest hurdles i personally have had in my path of studying tao is trying to explain it to people and have them take it seriously. and then that line echoes in my head and i remember that it is ok for them to laugh, otherwise it wouldn't be the path, right?!

 

but man, it really is tough when people openly demean that which you take so seriously yourself. even my parents will do that sometimes, but i know for them (and most people) it is a coping mechanism when they encounter something unfamiliar. for instance, even though my folks are well aware that i am studying taoism, they always say "did you have you buddhism class today?" in a half-joking manner like one day i would wake up and see the joke was on me. and then i would calmly explain again that it is not buddhism, and that i am not a buddhist. i got over that, and now i just reply in the affirmative...it's so much easier that way, and i know that they know the difference already cause i have told them many times before. anyways...if people didn't laugh it wouldn't be the way...or so they say. later!

Edited June 8, 2011 by Mr. T

[ChiDragon]

Wu Wei is not "do nothing" rather "do nothing to cause harm"

 

When a wise scholar hears the Tao,

He practices it diligently.

When a mediocre scholar hears the Tao,

He wavers between belief and unbelief.

When a worthless scholar hears the Tao,

He laughs boisterously at it.

 

Question: Is there such thing as a worthless scholar. If a scholar is worthless, is he a scholar...???

Edited June 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Eric23]

"do no thing" is very different than "do nothing"

[ChiDragon]

"do no thing" is very different than "do nothing"

How about "do no thing to cause harm" as oppose to "do nothing to cause harm" ...???

[Eric23]

Living is a continual series of choices. I believe what Lao Zu is teaching is that in some circumstances our best action is to do no thing. That does not mean that in some other situation definitive action shouldn't be taken. Presumably, the sage takes the correct action in every situation.

[ChiDragon]

Living is a continual series of choices. I believe what Lao Zu is teaching is that in some circumstances our best action is to do no thing. That does not mean that in some other situation definitive action shouldn't be taken. Presumably, the sage takes the correct action in every situation.

 

"Living is a continual series of choices." It was from your point of view to interpret LaoTze's philosophy. That was a common thing to do for most people. My approach was to look at LaoTze's principles first, then I followed.

 

His whole idea about Wu Wei was to let Nature take its course, being natural, leave them alone. A sage takes the correct action was by not to take action to harm Nature in anyway. For example, a sage would not build a dam on a river to interrupt the water flow and the ecology of the river.

[Taoist Texts]

So, about that laugh. Is it a laugh of derision at Dao or a laugh of joy with Dao?

[dust]

Good question. I hadn't thought of that.

 

Well, waddya know... this just happens to be next on my list of GD verses to translate. Perhaps it'll tell us something.

[ChiDragon]

So, about that laugh. Is it a laugh of derision at Dao or a laugh of joy with Dao?

All depends who is doing the laugh.....!?

[Taoist Texts]

All depends who is doing the laugh.....!?

Dusty says its a student being facetious. a C minus student obviously.

[dust]

Mr Feng said that

 

But I kind of agree.

 

士 denotes a person of some regard, doesn't it?

[Michael Sternbach]

“Tao lies directly beneath the soles of your feet.” It's Tao's simplicity which makes somebody believing in complexity laugh.

[Taoist Texts]

Mr Feng said that

 

But I kind of agree.

 

士 denotes a person of some regard, doesn't it?

i donno. but i was in many a class where a tier of students could not cope with the subject. Like crystallography оr tax accounting. Some guys would go blank in the eyes, some would curse and hiss, some would denigrate the usefullness of the subject. Never ever would anybody laugh. So i donno what so funny here.

[dust]

They might be laughing at it, but they might be laughing with it.

 

 

上士昏道堇能行於丌中 When a scholar of high learning hears of the Way, he finds difficulty walking in it,

中士昏道若昏若亡 When a scholar of middle learning hears of the Way, he is unsure,

下士昏道大笑之 When a scholar of low learning hears of the Way, he laughs aloud;

弗大笑不足以爲道矣 Without laughter there is not enough to follow the Way

 

 

There's then a long list of contradictory phrases, e.g. the bright way seems hidden, great purity seems dirty

 

What he's saying, I think, is that those of low learning find it easier to comprehend the Way..because their minds are not full of nonsense and fluffy ideas; good understanding of Dao seems like low learning

 

 

 

Point of interest to anyone interested:

 

The last slip of the chapter is missing at the bottom. There should be enough room for 8 characters, judging by the other slips, before it cuts off.

Certainly there is not enough room for 11 more; but in the MWD and received, there are between 11 and 12 characters left in the chapter. So...which ones were originally on the GD slip? Did it cut the last 3-4 characters off? Did it use different characters? Or did they squeeze them all in (which would not be characteristic)?

Edited December 12, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

EVERY PREVIOUS TRANSLATION WAS WRONG. Sorry guys. Nailed it.

[ChiDragon]

EVERY PREVIOUS TRANSLATION WAS WRONG. Sorry guys. Nailed it.

 

What made you so sure.....???

 

How about this possible translation?

弗大笑不足以爲道矣

If there was no big laughter, then, Tao would not be good enough to be Tao.

Edited December 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Could be, could be.

 

My main issue is with the traditional interpretation that 上 means "wise" or "better" and 下 means "low" or "stupid"

 

1. This doesn't fit with the rest of the chapter -- the next lines are about bright being dim etc, so it's logical that the "low" scholar is in fact the more adept at Tao

 

2. It also doesn't fit with the rest of the TTC -- a number of chapters talk of being low, dim, and humble. Not high and mighty.

[ChiDragon]

Laozi uses 上(upper level), 中(mediocre), 下(lower level) to classify the scholars in their levels of understanding about Tao.

What Lao Zi means:
上: upper; high; top; superior
中: middle; medium; center; mediocre
下: low, down; beneath; under; inferior

Well, the interpretation for classics will apply all the possible definitions. It doesn't just lock into one definition but all of the above.

In each chapter, one need to read into its contextual meaning to determine the final conclusion.


PS....
dusty....
May I ask are you studying Chinese in China....???

Edited December 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

I did, for a while. I'm in the UK now.

 

 

In each chapter, one need to read into its contextual meaning to determine the final conclusion.

 

Yes.... but in any text, one also needs to look at each chapter in the context of the entire text in order to determine any conclusions. The TTC only makes sense as a whole if the themes are consistent from chapter to chapter.

 

In the context of the text -- regarding Tao, and everything that LZ says -- we can conclude that:

 

- the low surpasses the high (ch.66)

- the weak and flexible surpasses the strong and rigid (ch.40,76,78)

- full is not 'better' than empty (ch.11,45)