[TTC Study] Chapter 41 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Taoist Texts]

oor a its a funny misunderstanding and those were not scholars at all

 

Samurai (侍^?), usually referred to in Japanese as bushi (武士^?, [bu͍ꜜ.ɕi̥]) or buke (武家^?), were the military nobility of medieval and early-modern Japan. According to translator William Scott Wilson: "In Chinese, the character 侍 was originally a verb meaning to wait upon or accompany persons in the upper ranks of society, and this is also true of the original term in Japanese, saburau. In both countries the terms were nominalized to mean "those who serve in close attendance to the nobility", the pronunciation in Japanese changing to saburai. According to Wilson, an early reference to the word "samurai" appears in the Kokin Wakashū (905–914), the first imperial anthology of poems, completed in the first part of the 10th century.^[1]

By the end of the 12th century, samurai became almost entirely synonymous with bushi, and the word was closely associated with the middle and upper echelons of the warrior class.

[Taoist Texts]

OK good.. but doesn't this mean that the laugh in that text is specified at respectful/awed, whereas the laugh in this chapter isn't specified as anything but 大 ?

 

 

Its because a great laugh is a meaningful formula in itself. As Dawei said its akin to Zen laugh. If Dao doesnt snap into elation the lowest rungs of society its useless, its impotent. Who needs such a feeble dao?

 

 

all in all i feel good about this chapter. Great work everyone!

[dust]

I always found it peculiar that many translations explicitly mention scholars or even sages of lower degree. Lower degree or not, why do they deserve such a title in Lao Tzu's view even though they are totally ignorant of Dao?

 

From a linguistic perspective, 士 doesn't mean sage. If Laozi uses a different word, we should translate it as a different word, right? The question is, did he mean scholar, student, nobleman, warrior...?

 

I think he simply meant someone who is trying to learn. Not a student of a specific subject, or a great scholar, but simply someone who, like us, is trying to figure the world out.

 

could it be that many a scholar/academic was particularly inclined to ridicule Dao because of their own intricacy and over-intellectualizing (much like in our time)?

 

Exactly my thinking. We see this all the time, don't we?

Edited December 14, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

oor a its a funny misunderstanding and those were not scholars at all

 

See my previous post.. but yes I don't think the word 'scholar' is the best, at least not in the way we use the term these days

 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=scholar&searchmode=none

 

Greek scholastes meant "one who lives at ease."

 

In times past, a scholar was someone who learnt about things that they wanted to learn about. No more.

 

Not the kind of 'scholar' we have now, where someone diligently practices studying difficult things in order to be well-known for studying difficult things.

 

 

 

Samurai (侍^?), usually referred to in Japanese as bushi (武士^?, [bu͍ꜜ.ɕi̥]) or buke (武家^?), were the military nobility of medieval and early-modern Japan. According to translator William Scott Wilson: "In Chinese, the character 侍 was originally a verb meaning to wait upon or accompany persons in the upper ranks of society, and this is also true of the original term in Japanese, saburau. In both countries the terms were nominalized to mean "those who serve in close attendance to the nobility", the pronunciation in Japanese changing to saburai. According to Wilson, an early reference to the word "samurai" appears in the Kokin Wakashū (905–914), the first imperial anthology of poems, completed in the first part of the 10th century.^[1]

By the end of the 12th century, samurai became almost entirely synonymous with bushi, and the word was closely associated with the middle and upper echelons of the warrior class.

 

OK, but 士 and 侍 are 2 different characters, right?

 

Originally, 士 = 手持大斧作战的武夫 -- it's still basically the original ideogram of a warrior holding an axe

 

人 + 寺 = 侍 -- person + temple/worship = 'butler'

 

I don't want to start getting into Japanese history..but Laozi predates samurai by a long way..

[ChiDragon]

1. 勤 as "diligent" means that he works hard.... is that because he finds it difficult?

 

2. I don't think anyone disagrees greatly on this line. The middle one is in the middle.

 

3. But what's the reason for the laugh? Not because Tao seems easy to him?

 

1. An upper level scholar hears the principles of Tao, he would cultivate(修行) them diligently.

The reason one cultivates the the principles of Tao is to become a Taoist. Yes, during the course of cultivation, it is very difficult to be a Taoist.

 

3. A lower level scholar hears the principles of Tao will give them a big laugh.

The reason he laughed is because he didn't understand the principles of Tao, at all, and due to his ignorance.

 

 

Edited to add:

Upper level scholar may be interpreted as Teacher.

Lower level may be just a student.

Edited December 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

This is an interesting discussion. So far I always took it for granted that Lao Tzu is talking about the non-Daoists making fun of the Daoist's way. But some posts on this thread offer a different view.

 

I always found it peculiar that many translations explicitly mention scholars or even sages of lower degree. Lower degree or not, why do they deserve such a title in Lao Tzu's view even though they are totally ignorant of Dao?

 

A couple of possibilities... Is it because only scholars were able to read Daoist literature in the first place? Or could it be that many a scholar/academic was particularly inclined to ridicule Dao because of their own intricacy and over-intellectualizing (much like in our time)?

 

Yes, different words used in the translation may twist the original intended meaning. It can be revised for everyone's satisfaction. Instead of using scholar or sage in the translation, we can use a general term as Lao Zi did.

 

《道德經》: 41

上士聞道，勤能行於其中；

Those who have an upper level of understanding the principles of Tao, they would cultivate(修行) diligently.

 

中士聞道，若存若亡；

Those who have a middle level of understanding the principles of Tao, it seems to be obscure to them.

 

下士聞道，大笑之。

Those who seem to have a lower level of understanding the principles of Tao will give a big laugh.

 

不笑不足以為道。

If Tao wasn't being laughed at, then, Tao wouldn't be good enough to be Tao.

 

Annotation:

After a second thought and investigation, in this chapter, "士" actually means one, someone, somebody rather than scholar or sage. I believe it would be more appropriate to use "those who.....".

 

Lao Zi using the terms upper, middle and lower was not to be discriminate against any class of people. Rather,it was to distinguish the different level of understand of the principles of Tao.

Edited December 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

上士昏道堇能行於丌中 When a scholar of high learning hears of the Way, he finds difficulty walking in it,

 

"堇能行於丌中(he finds difficulty walking in it)"

It seems to me there is a flaw in this translation for the following reasons.

1. It seems that the phrase does not contain a character for "difficulty(難)"

2. In this case, 行 doesn't means walk. Actually, it means 修行(cultivate).

 

I would rephrase it to read:

May(能) be cultivated(行於) within(丌中) diligently(堇).