Christianity and Gnosticism

[Pero]

Posted this on HT forum also.

I have to do a paper which is part of passing my final sociology exam on this title. So I`d like to ask if anyone knows any good books or internet sites on this topic. Now, the problem is, it has to be related to sociology.

 

Something like beginnings of christianity and gnosticism, expansion of christianity and fall of gnosticism (reasons, circumstances, like one thing I found is that the belief that with birth you bring a new soul into this material world, caused a lot of abortions between gnostics, which was part of their "extinction"), where both of them are today.... How both religions influenced each other, how they coexisted...

 

Christianity isn`t such a problem, but gnosticism is. I found one book, that was talking about gnosticism and it`s social and economic state of its followers. However the book was rare, it wasn`t on amazon, and it cost 300 $ (!) I believe.

 

Any advice would be very appreciated.

[GrandTrinity]

check out the book Physician Heal Thyself...more Essene stlye, but same idea...I been planning to read this, as Im sure it has amazingly good insights...

 

Another thing is maybe check out Samuel Aun Weir or the Gnostic school Sean is into on Astral travel...? good info at that website.

 

Finally, at the forum for the following website, the authors of Astrotheology and Shamanism are very knowledgeable and open to questions...

www.gnosticmedia.com

 

keep us updated

[tumoessence]

Posted this on HT forum also.

I have to do a paper which is part of passing my final sociology exam on this title. So I`d like to ask if anyone knows any good books or internet sites on this topic. Now, the problem is, it has to be related to sociology.

 

Something like beginnings of christianity and gnosticism, expansion of christianity and fall of gnosticism (reasons, circumstances, like one thing I found is that the belief that with birth you bring a new soul into this material world, caused a lot of abortions between gnostics, which was part of their "extinction"), where both of them are today.... How both religions influenced each other, how they coexisted...

 

Christianity isn`t such a problem, but gnosticism is. I found one book, that was talking about gnosticism and it`s social and economic state of its followers. However the book was rare, it wasn`t on amazon, and it cost 300 $ (!) I believe.

 

Any advice would be very appreciated.

 

Check out Gnosticism by Kurt Rudolf. I looked at a copy today and thought of your post. It looks like it covers history as well as social aspects.

[Pero]

I bought "Gnosis: The Nature and History of Gnosticism" and "Backgrounds of Early Christianity" on Amazon, with two other books. It was hard to decide, and I would buy more, but I don`t want to spend so much money on something I probably wont have much use in the future. I just hope I`ll get the books on time.

[Pero]

Well I got 18 out of 25 possible points for my paper. I expected it to be around 20... But it`s ok, considering that I got the books I wanted one day before deadline, when my paper was basically finished (it was still being corrected by my cousin). So I did the paper with the stuff I had before, didn`t use these two books.

 

I`m thinking of returning them to Amazon, as I have no use of them anymore. I`m just not sure if it pays of or not, it seems like half (or more maybe) of the money I`ll get back, will be spent on shipping anyway.

 

Oh well, now I have to get myself to study sociology for the written exam. Have time `till Wednesday...

[cloud recluse]

I dont know if this is of interest to anyone,but Ive just got 2 thirds of the way through WHAT IS GNOSTICISM? by Karen L.King. A VERY interesting one this,it challenges the historical validity of the very categories of "Gnostic" & "Christian',& gives you a good overview of scholastic research thus far,pointing out that categories like "Gnostic" were often derogatory labels invented by one group to attack another.

Also alludes to the total lack of doctrinal uniformity in collections like the Nag Hammadi library,& the difficulty in trying to find any one quality that is universally 'Gnostic".

 

There just seems to be a big question mark hanging over the period of Christian/Gnostic origins from the 1st Century or so onwards.

 

Now ,this is a work of academia,shes not claiming to be channeling Simon Magus or anything like that,so its not full of enticing esoterica.But it does seem like a good antidote to the deeply flawed historical presuppositions thus far.

 

Just my two cents there

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Pero]

I find it hard to believe that "gnostic" is deragotory term, but I guess it`s possible, since at first the differences between gnostics and christians weren`t so big.

Since you mentioned Simon Magus, I read two stories about him, quite interesting. One made me think that maybe Simon realized emptiness. Maybe I will post them later.

 

 

I have the final exam for sociology (for graduation) in less than 8 hours and I know shit....

The only thing that I`ll study for sure now, is the one thing that is known that will be on the exam. As for the rest, I`m hoping for luck.

I would be soooo happy if one topic (out of the 3 I don`t know) would be religion, the only thing I know that I almost don`t have to study for. Unfortunately I had lots of luck already during this kind of exams (this year and last year), so I`m afraid it`ll run out...

If I fail my family`s going to kill me. Well not really, it`ll be worse, I`ll probably have to listen to some lectures...

[cloud recluse]

 

Since you mentioned Simon Magus, I read two stories about him, quite interesting. One made me think that maybe Simon realized emptiness..

 

OOOHHHHHH,Now youve REALLY got my attention Gimme,Gimme,Gimme!

 

Anyhow,good luck with the academia

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Pero]

I think it went well, better than I feared definately. I don`t think it was just luck though...

I pretty certain I will pass. I won`t get results `till the 22nd of September unfortunately.

 

Will post the two stories in a few moments.

[Pero]

This is from a book called "The psyche in antiquity" by Edward F. Edinger.

 

The stories come from "Recognitions of Clement".

 

Clement says, "By nation he is Samaritan, from a village of the Gettones; by profession a magician, yet excedinly well trained in the Greeek literature; desirous of glory, and boasting above all human race, so that he wishes himself to be believed to be an exalted power, which is above God the Creator, and to be thought to be the Christ, and to be called the Standing One." {cool term huh?}

 

Here is another synonym for "Messiah" - the Simonian-Gnostic term, the "Standing One". It refers to the one who can remain upright after the blast of the numinosum has flattened everyone else. The pseudo-Clementine text continues with a description of how Simon began as a disciple of a certain Dositheus, who had thirty discples, one of whom was called Luna. (Helen and Luna are cognate names)

 

Simon asked to be admitted as a disciple and he soon became of the thirty. Then he started challenging Dositheus. There are legends indicating that Dositheus in his wrath tried to beat Simon, but the stick went right through Simon`s body "as if it were smoke". Finally, according to the legend, Dositheus acknowledged that Simon indeed was the "Standing One" rather than himself, so Simon took Dositheus`s place. A few minutes later, Dositheus died. The legend goes on to describe how Simon then took Luna, Dositheus` consort, for his own."

 

Now fast forward into the future :

 

"The legend of Simon Magus ends with a particurlar and unusual event. Peter and Simon were antagonists. A great deal of the pseudo-Clementine literature is a dispute between Simon and Peter that continues for scores of pages. According to the simple original legend, the conflict between Simon and Peter was finally concluded in Rome by a contest of magic. Each one would perform a feat of magic, and then the other one woul try to perform something more impressive.

 

According to the legend, the end finally came when Simon announced that on the following day he was going to fly. It is not quite clear whether he meant to say that he was going to leave the earth and fly up into heaven, back where he came from, or just that he would fly.

The day came and Simon started to fly. Peter, however, prayed that he should fall. Peter`s prayer was more powerful that Simon`s magic, so Simon fell to his death."

 

 

Now I need some rest.

[...]

the 'orthodox' christians persecuted all other christian sects.. most notably the gnostics. it has been suggest that th eburning of the library of alexandria was purposed for the destruction of records documenting such persecution.

 

I think it was the 5th or 6th crusade.. in which an entire state of 'neo-christians' were killed.. absolutely wiped out... in what is nowadays romania I believe.. I read it in the book, 'holy blood, holy grail'... apparantly the church was threatened by the relatively advanced spiritual doctrine of these 'christians', so he ordered a sort of religious genocide.. killed every man woman and child in every town the conquering forces travelled to... he had alot of help from bourguoise (spelling?) provinces.. who were just happy to plunder the (relatively) rich victim states.

 

modern christianity is built on a foundation of horrible crimes against humanity.. countless and monstrous.. the wiser part of me thinks that we should pack all the christian fundamentalists into the vatican and blow them all to hell... taking their fucking religion with them.. jesus might have been a great guy, but a real fucking dumbass, too. too bad he wasnt such a master to see what his martydom would accomplish.

 

HEY OMG... MAYBE THE TRUE STORY: HE WAS PISSED OFF WITH MANKIND, SO HE KNOWINGLY PUNISHED US WITH CHRISTIANITY?! ooooooooooOOoooooOhhh.....

 

I fucking hate monotheistic fundamentalist trash... I would have little qualms putting a bullet in the head of alot of these people. I think I would enjoy it. splattering their brains (and "idea's") into a bloody mess on the pavement of a street. they are the bane of this world, and the truest manifestation of evil.

[cloud recluse]

 

 

I fucking hate monotheistic fundamentalist trash... I would have little qualms putting a bullet in the head of alot of these people. I think I would enjoy it. splattering their brains (and "idea's") into a bloody mess on the pavement of a street. they are the bane of this world, and the truest manifestation of evil.

 

Ahhh,subtle & understated.A man after my own heart

 

Seriously though.while I applaud your fanaticism in this particular instance,I dont think you should look to Holy Blood Holy Grail for accurate history.It sounds like you were referring to the massacre of the Cathars.This was a fairly straightforward case of the Cathars being too vocal about their beliefs,that the material world was evil & thus the biblical creator evil also ( not a very advanced idea at all),& the Church crushing them for that.There was also a lot of social rivalry involved,two different regions of France being long term political enemies,& one of them seizing on the Heretic excuse to wipe out the other ( backed by Church militia).

 

Its not that the Cathars were advanced spiritually,they were just too loud & came from the wrong side of the tracks.Like the Church,they were life-haters,just of a renegade variety.They wernt killed for any "Secret Doctrine",but rather for the fairly crude ones that they trumpeted so loudly.

 

Still,keep a close eye on those fundamentalist bastards.I dont trust em for a second.Theyd kill us all to get to Heaven

 

Yours self-righteously,Cloud

[...]

yeah, that's it. =p

[...]

hey what do you think about hat book, holy blood, holy grail? I got a quarter of the way through it.. and lost it =( I am sure it is around somewhere... I took it to a land-navigation course LOL...

 

I really did appreciate the extremely interesting tid-bits of information amidst all the really boring shit.. definately worth reading for... does it get better? towards the end..? (does it tell you how to join the ranks of the modern manifestation of the templar order??? lol)

[cloud recluse]

hey what do you think about hat book, holy blood, holy grail? I got a quarter of the way through it.. and lost it =( I am sure it is around somewhere... I took it to a land-navigation course LOL...

 

I really did appreciate the extremely interesting tid-bits of information amidst all the really boring shit.. definately worth reading for... does it get better? towards the end..? (does it tell you how to join the ranks of the modern manifestation of the templar order??? lol)

 

Alas,one sometimes has to be cruel to be kind.

 

Dump it,its worthless,its just part of Frances "Templar/Cathar" tourist industry.

 

However,the truth behind the whole "Priory of Sion" scam is kind of interesting.But ,alas ,there is no great mystery of Rennes le Chateu,no Sacred bloodline,no actual Priory of Sion etc.Just 3 guys a few decades ago pulling a pseudo-Masonic prank.

 

Do you really want the details on this ? Your call.

 

Regards,Cloud.

[...]

ah, man, you're kidding? =\ one thing about me.. is I am very, very open-minded to everything... but this means I am incredibly gullible, as well.

the trade-off is good though... I just get fucked by alot of people... not just in my readings and stuff... everyday people take advantage of me every now and then. (probably why I am so averse to liars...)

lol, you know I was absolutely CONVINCED of the whole chem-trails thing... OMG LOL.... I saw it happen!

 

...yes! if you have details I would like to hear them!

[Pero]

the 'orthodox' christians persecuted all other christian sects.. most notably the gnostics.

 

Yes, but it was not so from the begining. Christianity (orthodox or otherwise) was in a minority at first, and all Christians were persecuted by Rome. In the 4th century however, the majority of Romans were Christians, that`s when I think catholic christian persecution of other forms began for real.

 

 

jesus might have been a great guy, but a real fucking dumbass, too. too bad he wasnt such a master to see what his martydom would accomplish.

 

See, you˙re missing something. The way I understand what you`re saying is that it˙s Jesus` fault for what Christianity did. It isn`t. Through time his teachings were in my opinion corrupted and lost. The Christians in charge, were IMO not Christians at all. They were deluded, power hungry, selfish idiots...

 

HEY OMG... MAYBE THE TRUE STORY: HE WAS PISSED OFF WITH MANKIND, SO HE KNOWINGLY PUNISHED US WITH CHRISTIANITY?! ooooooooooOOoooooOhhh.....

 

Lol, possible. Perhaps Jesus knew what his "martydom" would accomplish, or will still accomplish something that we can`t foresee. It`s said: "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

 

 

modern christianity is built on a foundation of horrible crimes against humanity.. countless and monstrous.. the wiser part of me thinks that we should pack all the christian fundamentalists into the vatican and blow them all to hell... taking their fucking religion with them..

 

Lol, I`m not sure I get your point. The whole modern world is built on horrible crimes, not just Christianity... For example, replace Christianity with U.S., and what do you get? The same thing...

 

 

the wiser part of me thinks...

 

Somehow I doubt it`s the wiser part that thinks that...

 

 

It sounds like you were referring to the massacre of the Cathars.

 

Weren`t Cathars in France, not Romania?

 

 

Still,keep a close eye on those fundamentalist bastards.I dont trust em for a second.Theyd kill us all to get to Heaven

 

Hehe, that is true for many, not just fundamentalists. Just replace the words a bit.

 

 

lol, you know I was absolutely CONVINCED of the whole chem-trails thing... OMG LOL.... I saw it happen!

 

What are chem-trails? I saw it before on some other topics, but not sure what it means.

[cloud recluse]

... The way I understand what you`re saying is that it˙s Jesus` fault for what Christianity did. It isn`t. Through time his teachings were in my opinion corrupted and lost. The Christians in charge, were IMO not Christians at all. They were deluded, power hungry, selfish idiots...

Lol, possible. Perhaps Jesus knew what his "martydom" would accomplish, or will still accomplish something that we can`t foresee. It`s said: "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

 

 

The way I understand it,Jesus was another in a long line of Jewish nationalists who hoped to butcher the Roman occupation with assistance from Yahweh. It didnt work,& he got the standard punishment for a rebel.His brother James continues the fight until the Romans finally slaughter every Jew in Jerusalem & kick the remainder out.

 

Unfortunately,this leaves a folk -hero myth for the remaining Jewish nationalists.

 

Fortunetly for the Romans,the collapse of the original Jesus movement with the destruction of Jerusalem allows imitators to emerge in its place.Loyal Roman citizens like Paul,who never actually met Jesus,cobble together a Rome-freindly anti-semitic pacifist tradition by combining graeco-roman philosophies with distorted versions of the original events. Jesus the violent revolutionary is replaced by the Gospels.The threat of a folk-hero myth is averted,de-fused.And an easy access pseudo-Mystery cult is started.

 

The original Jesus discovered the sad fact that God is "on the side" of whoever has the biggest armies & the best tacticians.No freedom for the Jews,& his own mission twisted into a sickly cult of puritans.

 

No great wisdom there,just failed politics.

 

Regards,Cloud.

[...]

omg... I KNEW it...!

 

btw, the chem-trails are a conspiracy... in which planes are spraying somesort of chemical into the air. for what purpose? everyone has their suspicions. who exactly is doing it? prrroooobably the government. Have people been killed to cover up the truth? are there victims?? is our very future jeopardized by the terrorthat are the chem-trails? YES.

SOMETHING is happening and if there is an uprising to COUNTER this threat we are all in DEEP TROUBLE.

 

if you goole-chem trails, you will find all the proof you need in pictures. there are documentaries... canadian radio broadcasts warning us of the danger... It's all on the internet, man.

 

chem-trails are MURDER.

 

Edited September 1, 2006 by ...

[DustWalker]

I actually think the easiest answer in this case is the most believeable. Whats wrong with plain normal environmental-damage?

 

The Chemtrails idea to me is yet another unhealthy "meme" that poisons peoples minds and helps to create a world a lot worse than the one we all live in.

 

So my take is: Just don't believe it!

Edited September 2, 2006 by DustWalker

[...]

ya, ok man. dig your head in the sand and believe it's not there.

 

when the revolution comes, you'll remember.

 

[thelerner]

Not sure where chemtrails belong in the Gnosticism debate, but I'll bet the Christians would be against them and the Gnostics would be live and let live .

 

 

I agree with Dust Walker. They're a dark Urban Myth, a good example of how paranoia snowballs, and peoples need for a boogie man. I wallowed through the various sites. Mostly very scared people. Occassionally there would be a pilot or chemist or EPA person who would say, relax..this is fantasy.

 

Nothing will convince the true believer otherwise. The revolution already came, we won.

 

 

Michael

[Pero]

The way I understand it,Jesus was another in a long line of Jewish nationalists who hoped to butcher the Roman occupation with assistance from Yahweh. It didnt work,& he got the standard punishment for a rebel.His brother James continues the fight until the Romans finally slaughter every Jew in Jerusalem & kick the remainder out.

 

Unfortunately,this leaves a folk -hero myth for the remaining Jewish nationalists.

 

Fortunetly for the Romans,the collapse of the original Jesus movement with the destruction of Jerusalem allows imitators to emerge in its place.Loyal Roman citizens like Paul,who never actually met Jesus,cobble together a Rome-freindly anti-semitic pacifist tradition by combining graeco-roman philosophies with distorted versions of the original events. Jesus the violent revolutionary is replaced by the Gospels.The threat of a folk-hero myth is averted,de-fused.And an easy access pseudo-Mystery cult is started.

 

The original Jesus discovered the sad fact that God is "on the side" of whoever has the biggest armies & the best tacticians.No freedom for the Jews,& his own mission twisted into a sickly cult of puritans.

 

No great wisdom there,just failed politics.

 

Regards,Cloud.

 

Well, I think what you`re saying is quite possible. But, I don`t think it was like that. If it were so, then all gospels, not just the current ones that are in the Bible, would be flat out fabrications about Jesus... And you can say what you want (and I don`t really mean you specifically), but the Bible does contain some very good teachings...

 

Though Paul indeed was the most responsible for the creation of the Church. So, maybe you`re right, it was 2000 years ago, so it`s hard to know the truth, especially beneath the shroud of the Church. Still, I just can`t see it like that. Maybe my Christian conditioning is effecting me, or maybe not...

Hmmm, but also, how do you explain that Paul worked with other apostoles, and if I remember right, was killed himself beacuse he was a christian?

[cloud recluse]

Well, I think what you`re saying is quite possible. But, I don`t think it was like that. If it were so, then all gospels, not just the current ones that are in the Bible, would be flat out fabrications about Jesus... And you can say what you want (and I don`t really mean you specifically), but the Bible does contain some very good teachings...

 

Though Paul indeed was the most responsible for the creation of the Church. So, maybe you`re right, it was 2000 years ago, so it`s hard to know the truth, especially beneath the shroud of the Church. Still, I just can`t see it like that. Maybe my Christian conditioning is effecting me, or maybe not...

Hmmm, but also, how do you explain that Paul worked with other apostoles, and if I remember right, was killed himself beacuse he was a christian?

 

Not flat out fabrications.To get a response from the target audience they must be derived in some manner from already current notions,but yes,by & large,as histories of Christ they are pretty dubious (I include in this the "Gnostic" gospels as well).

Certainly there is good stuff scattered throughout the Old & New Testaments,as well as the Apocrypha.Any belief system has to cater succesfully to at least a few human needs.But most of that is the product of numerous rewrites & transpositions ( the Sermon on the Mount being a classic example).Theres also far too much crap in there too,& Id rather go for less polluted sources.

 

Paul DID NOT work well with the other Apostles & was in continual conflict with the original Jerusalem Church prior to its destruction!This does occur in the New Testament itself.Hes vision of Christ as universal Saviour was in direct conflict withn the Apostles Christ -as-exclusively- Jewish-Political-Messiah.

 

Pauls death at that point in time is still prior to the romans realisation of Pauline Christianities political usefulness.That was still a little while off,and the cult had not yet been formalised.

[cloud recluse]

Pero'

I just reread my post & it occurs to me that my language is somewhat blunt.Please forgive me if Im sounding dogmatic on this of all subjects,but it is a topic I have strong (albeit tentative) feelings on.In banging on about my opinion,I havent stopped to really ask about yours.This,quite simply,isjust plain rude

 

What is your personal feeling on the whole Christ thing.it sounds like it means something to you personally in some sense.I mean,I think your interest in the Gnostics is more than just academic? Yes ? No? What motivates you in this discussion (if you dont mind me asking)?

 

Regards,Cloud