Christianity and Gnosticism

[Pero]

Pero'

I just reread my post & it occurs to me that my language is somewhat blunt.Please forgive me if Im sounding dogmatic on this of all subjects,but it is a topic I have strong (albeit tentative) feelings on.In banging on about my opinion,I havent stopped to really ask about yours.This,quite simply,isjust plain rude sad.gif

 

No worries, I didn`t percieve it as rudeness or anything.

 

 

What is your personal feeling on the whole Christ thing.it sounds like it means something to you personally in some sense.I mean,I think your interest in the Gnostics is more than just academic? Yes ? No? What motivates you in this discussion (if you dont mind me asking)?

 

I don`t mind you asking, I`m just not sure if I`m able to answer.

Hmmm, I wonder how this will come out. I never really thought about it much untill now.

 

It would appear that I am sort of defending Christianity here, which is kind of ironic to me, since I have distanced myself from it.

 

So far I have seen mostly two views on it from other people, some are completely against it and others are completely for it. Both blind IMO. So I usually take the opposite position of the person I`m talking or listening to. So if someone is completely against Christianity, I will be talking about the good things I can find. And if someone is for Christianity and trying to convince me into someting maybe, I`ll go against it in which ever way I can think of.

 

Not sure why I do that. I think it`s maybe because I think that neither side is right. And that no one is speaking out of understanding or any true knowledge or realizations or whatever it might be called. They are just imprisoned into their beliefs, beliefs which were formed and imprinted on them by others, which I think is usually related to their family, but also can be propaganda of some sorts.

 

 

My interest in Gnostics, hmmm. Well, I can`t say it`s just academic, I usually don`t have just academic interests (if I`m understanding this right), there`s always something more to it. That is, something to learn and put into practice. I came into contact with Gnosticism when I read a book from Z.M. Slavinski, "Practical class of gnostic occultism" (not quite right translation probably). Direct experience sounded far more right to me than blind faith. I think there is something in gnosticism that is worth looking into.

 

But at that time I didn`t really have an academic interest in it, and now I still don`t really have it. It was more "bad luck" than anything that got me into this. You see, we had to choose a title for our papers for sociology, and had a deadline for it.

I forgot, so I just wrote four titles that I could think of at class, and I would later choose one. The titles have to get verified before you can write the paper. And, what happened? This was the only title that was verified... Don`t know why. So I was basically stuck with this one. So from that came my "academic" interest.

 

 

What motivates me in this discussion? Not sure, I guess whatever motivates me in other discussions.

Hmmm, but really, I don`t know. Maybe the first part of my reply is the answer...

What motivates you?

 

 

Hmmm, now that I think about it, your questions were more like one maybe? And I separated them?

Anyway, I hope this answers them in some way.

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to say what is my feeling on the Christ thing. I personally really do think he was a teacher. Now, I also think it˙s possible that he did teach the thing`s he`s supposedly taught and be the way you are telling it. Maybe he was like Osho.

Half kidding, but I do think he might have had two roles, that of the savior in the christian sense, and that of the savior in the jewish sense. Hmmm, that`s all I have to say for now, as I got a mental block (or maybe just don`t have anything else to say lol).

Edited September 4, 2006 by Pero

[cloud recluse]

 

What motivates me in this discussion? Not sure, I guess whatever motivates me in other discussions.

Hmmm, but really, I don`t know. Maybe the first part of my reply is the answer...

What motivates you?

 

 

Pero,I just seem to be on a self-apointed crusade

 

I just want to clarify the destructive egoic stratgies that masquerade as spirituality,be they Eastern or Western (or Antarctic or whatever).I think we in our culture have a remarkable & important opportunity to sort the gold from the dross.& historical research is an important part of that.

 

I particularly have my eye on the Christ myth,as that creeps back in ("Resurrecting" itself you might say ) in so many ways.

 

But Ill happily take an axe to any gurus head,while at the same time staying sufficiently low-profile enough to avoid that same critical attention being directed at me

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Pero]

 

I think we in our culture have a remarkable & important opportunity to sort the gold from the dross.& historical research is an important part of that.

 

I agree, although I don`t know what dross is (I get the meaning though).

However be careful, if the teachers or the history is corrupt or something, that doesn`t mean that the teachings are corrupt or useless as well.

 

Like the Christ "myth" as you call it.

Even if it is a myth, you can learn many things from the teachings that attribute their origin to Christ. To me they hold no less value if Christ was indeed an agressive politcal figure.

[cloud recluse]

I agree, although I don`t know what dross is (I get the meaning though).

However be careful, if the teachers or the history is corrupt or something, that doesn`t mean that the teachings are corrupt or useless as well.

 

Like the Christ "myth" as you call it.

Even if it is a myth, you can learn many things from the teachings that attribute their origin to Christ. To me they hold no less value if Christ was indeed an agressive politcal figure.

 

True enough

 

Pero,I think,in the context of Christianity,Im particularly concerned with the fundamentalist variety.PARTICULARLY the nutbags that look for political applications for the book of Revelation.Their applying of this to the current Middle East crisis scares the fuck out of me.

 

This is where history is particularly useful,in that SOME people (though certainly not all) might actually pause a bit when they find out their scripture is not the divinely xeroxed document they think it is,but rather a very human & flawed compilation.

 

Regards,Cloud

[Pero]

I agree with that.

 

Except:

 

bit when they find out their scripture is not the divinely xeroxed document they think it is,but rather a very human & flawed compilation.

 

The scripture doesn`t matter as much as its interpretation. It can be "perfect", the interpretation of it can be flawed IMO. If it is even possible though, that something can be flawed....

[thaddeus]

I agree with that.

 

Except:

The scripture doesn`t matter as much as its interpretation. It can be "perfect", the interpretation of it can be flawed IMO. If it is even possible though, that something can be flawed....

I'd like to discuss this stuff with you guys, just can't right now got some work dumped on me..but don't forget me..

T

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[cloud recluse]

I agree with that.

 

Except:

The scripture doesn`t matter as much as its interpretation. It can be "perfect", the interpretation of it can be flawed IMO. If it is even possible though, that something can be flawed....

Yes,definetly,a question of subtle distinctions.

 

But having said that,the material in the orthodox gospels still revolves around a particular historical scenario that is required to be accepted AS FACT to make the material 'work"-ie:the literal death & resurrection of Christ as universal Saviour.The Gnostic material,while having some pretty funky cosmologies in there too,is perhaps less bound by that?

 

 

I'd like to discuss this stuff with you guys, just can't right now got some work dumped on me..but don't forget me..

T

 

Anytime,Im usually up for it

 

Pretty amazing that this collection of words has inspired more cruelty, death and destruction than any weapon ever made.

Exactly! Now the question is "Why"?

[Pero]

But having said that,the material in the orthodox gospels still revolves around a particular historical scenario that is required to be accepted AS FACT to make the material 'work"-ie:the literal death & resurrection of Christ as universal Saviour.The Gnostic material,while having some pretty funky cosmologies in there too,is perhaps less bound by that?

 

A very good point. I`m not sure how it effects the Gnostic material since I don`t know how exactly they view his resurrection. However it would obviously weaken the foundations of Christianity, even crush it maybe. But it wouldn`t bother me either way.

 

 

Pretty amazing that this collection of words has inspired more cruelty, death and destruction than any weapon ever made.

 

Well, yeah, since when did weapons inspire anything at all?

[lezlie]

Not sure where chemtrails belong in the Gnosticism debate, but I'll bet the Christians would be against them and the Gnostics would be live and let live

 

LOL!

[cloud recluse]

To rewind the thread a little,I find the really interesting question to be whether or not there really was any definable group of people that could have been called 'The Gnostics' ? I get the impression that neither the "Christians ' nor the 'Gnostics' represented the original Jesus,both are equally heretical in that sense.But whereas its comparatively easy to define the post-Pauline Christians,exactly what does or doesnt constitute a 'Gnostic' seems to be a bit more elusive.

 

So,what do people here think of when they hear the term 'Gnostic',what does it connotate nowadays ?

[Wayfarer64]

I've said a fair bit about the lack of faith I put in the church vs the amount of faith I do put in the Buddhist-based teachings of Christ. But the Bible as instructional book is just out-dated in some ways this is my favorite riff on that...

 

Laura Schlessinger recently, said that for an observant Orthodox Jew,

homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be

condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura

penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet

 

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have

learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as

many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for

example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an

abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding

some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.

1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.

Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as

sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a

fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman

while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The

problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female,

provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims

that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I

own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath.

Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to

kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish

is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I

don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not

approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I

wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle

room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the

hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.

19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the

skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear

gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two

different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of

two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse

and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of

getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just

burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep

with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan...

 

This is off of the Gnostic thread which I may come back to as this seems a very popular thread and there is a very interesting story to the Gnostic sect's history...

[cloud recluse]

Now THATS special

[Wayfarer64]

Hi again Cloud,

Glad ya liked that riff on Biblical fundamentalism's flaws...

My possitive tilt toward Gnostic truth has become more a feeling than a memory of facts so I decided to go back and see what I could dig up- I remembered that I have a wonderful book called The Gnostics by Jacques Lacarriere, so I began to look through it and I realized/remember why I admire the Gnostics! ("Those who know")

Basically they held truth and knowledge as the basis for adherence to doctrine rather than belief or faith -(which is part of my favorite Taoist quote!)

Their most profound idea (to me) is that the whole of the universe is a big mistake and the ONLY truth we can trust is that spark of spirit and Godliness that we each hold deep within ourselves!

They tended to scandalize their contemporaries with unorthodox paths in order to cast off the shackles of the world that held man's spirit captive in the mainstream of the big cosmic mistake...

There was a belief that the sky held the answer and that the serpent/draco constellation that curled/s around the pole star held the secrets of inner growth. They strove to be lean and wary of the world's wicked ways. To find a truth beyond the material, as all of the visible universe was part of the mistake and disgrace! But matter held both repulsion and fascination. Cold and immobility were very dangerous to the earliest adherents. Time itself a condition of damnation pertaining to matter...We are living in an inherently evil sphere of the cosmos and we must do everything we can to counteract it's ways! Sexuality was a complete abomination as propagation of life just added to the problematic sphere of evil...The alienation of man is global etc...Basically we live as part of a huge error in judgement and must be reactive against it's matterial structure. Some pretty difficult concepts.

For them their "native land" was not terrestial but in the heavens from which they came...From a world beyond Sirius (the star)...

The True God having taken pity on mankind - allows the spark within to be recognized and nurtured...So suicide which may have seemed a likely reaction, was also rejected. It is the struggle against the wicked ways of our world that leads to redemption and back to the grace found (beyond Serius!)...

And once again something I relate to- that the eye holds a window into this place where the spark resides. The pupil of the eye- something I hold to be pretty accurate.

The basic truth found in Gnostic teachings is that there is truth to be found in all philosophies but each is mostly flawed and discardible...The great aim of Gnostics is to reject and expose dogma and doctrain as stupid and useless. The only tie to Christianity seems to be that early Gnostics took the Old Testament and other Hebrew writtings to be the foundation of recieved knowledge, and then rejected it!

Historicly there seems to be little in early Gnosticism, but some few adherent's borrowing from the gospels, and it's timing as a system coming out of the same general area as early Christianity. to link it with Christianity. Somewhat a nominal sect of historicly Judaic foundations as was Christianity...

Simon Magus is thought to be the first great teacher of the Gnostics. He traveled with a woman named Helen (about 17 years after the death of Christ) on the paths and roads, one of many among so many other messiahs and mystics, Christian Apostles, et al...

Simon Magus had read the "old testiment" and found the God of the Jews to be such a hard-ass -always making life a trial for men - that "Jehovah" could NOT be the true God of creation since he seemed to thwart mankind whenever he could! But dispite Jehovah's tampering man had the spark left from the True God to look to for guidence...

So, the imprint of the "real world" is within us. Man's spirit is not born immortal but can be "taught" to become so if the spark within is tended to...

Magus also taught that to make love was to confound the confusion of the world. Desire's fulfillment was a basic practice and some early followers of Simon and Helen were believed to practice "free love" among themselves... Even then a not so Christian idea...In the promiscuity of men and women lies the true communion...In order to reassemble the scattered sparks within us.

Which here confuses me if sexuality is a promotion of the evil?!

So already there are sects within the sect.

But I need to get back to work - I'll keep this in mind though and come back to it later on...

[Pero]

Which here confuses me if sexuality is a promotion of the evil?!

 

In my understanding it`s not that sexuality is the promotion of evil, but reproduction. By creating children you bring more souls into this "evil" material world and hence it is not wanted.

[Wayfarer64]

I believe yr right in that, sex/reproduction differentiation... but sex as one instance of the world's ways had to be part of what the early Gnostic's saw as the "problem"... 'cause even if they had some means of preventing pregnancy, it was "worldly".... I have no idea how seriously this worldlyness thing was taken, as everything one can physically do may be construed of as worldly...

So it may be that the concept of "uniting sparks" got around that way of thinking with later Gnostics... As the lure of free-wheeling and open sexuality took wings in the Simon Magnus group...

Those folks seem to be the proto-hippies of history! Refuting social convention and living in an open communal way... Even if back then it seems most social organization was pretty-much what we would think of as "communal".

In any case the Gnostic's credo demanded proof of any sollution or proscription, to offer some way of "knowing" not just believing, so the reasoning that went into the various ideas that they held must have been pretty interesting... Getting around the many parodoxes they entertained could not have been easy.

[cloud recluse]

Ever checked these guys out:

 

My Webpage

[cloud recluse]

 

 

...yes! if you have details I would like to hear them!

 

Actually,I just noticed today a copy of the latest FORTEAN TIMES at the newsagency which seems to have new info on the whole purpose of the Priory of Sion hoax.It details,apparently, another nongnostic,neo-fascist agenda behind the whole thing!

 

Regrettably,I cant afford to buy it