[TTC Study] Chapter 80 - A Peaceful Little Country

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 80 - A Peaceful Little Country

1. 小國寡民!

2. 有什伯之器 而不用,

3. 使民重死 而不遠徙。

4. 雖有舟輿 無所乘之,

5. 雖有甲兵 無所陳之。

6. 使民復結繩而用之。

7. 甘其食,

8. 美其服,

9. 安其居,

10.樂其俗。

11.鄰國相望,

12.雞犬之聲相聞,

13.民至老死,

14.不相往來。

 

Terse English

1. A small countries with few people!

2. Though there are many utensils but not in use.

3. Let the people feel rather die than migrate.

4. Though owning boats and wagons no need to ride them,

5. Though owning weapons no need to display them.

6. Let people return to era of using knots as reminder.

7. Give them food,

8. Offer them attire,

9. Provide them shelter,

10. Amuse them with entertainment.

11. Looking over the neighboring countries,

12. Hearing the sounds of chickens and dogs of each other,

13. People grew old until death,

14. Neither socialized with one another.

Edited June 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Fair translation, I think.

 

The first time I read that chapter I thought, "That ain't never gonna' happen." And I still believe it will never happen unless there is some great catastrophe and most of the human species is wiped out.

 

But I still don't think that would be natural for humans anyway.

 

However, yes, I suppose that it is an excellent ideal.

[ChiDragon]

Fair translation, I think.

 

The first time I read that chapter I thought, "That ain't never gonna' happen." And I still believe it will never happen unless there is some great catastrophe and most of the human species is wiped out.

 

But I still don't think that would be natural for humans anyway.

 

However, yes, I suppose that it is an excellent ideal.

 

"That ain't never gonna' happen." Exactly. Throughout the Tao Te Ching, LaoTze's philosophy was based on his famous slogan "Wu Wei". He defined Wu Wei as being natural; let thing be as they are; let Nature take its course. His ideas are too idealistic and impractical to make things to happen in the real world. However, this is, only, one of the chapters which reflects LaoTze's pipe dream.

 

All the Chapters with Wu Wei in them are, almost, his principles suggesting how a ruler should handle his people.

 

PS...

Sometimes, I got carried away when things come to the TTC. Please do not hesitate to let me know if I'm out of line.

[Marblehead]

"That ain't never gonna' happen." Exactly. Throughout the Tao Te Ching, LaoTze's philosophy was based on his famous slogan "Wu Wei". He defined Wu Wei as being natural; let thing be as they are; let Nature take its course. His ideas are too idealistic and impractical to make things to happen in the real world. However, this is, only, one of the chapters which reflects LaoTze's pipe dream.

 

All the Chapters with Wu Wei in them are, almost, his principles suggesting how a ruler should handle his people.

 

PS...

Sometimes, I got carried away when things come to the TTC. Please do not hesitate to let me know if I'm out of line.

 

How could I say you are out of line when you are just expressing your understanding? Now, I might not agree with your understanding but that's different. Here I agree with you.

 

It is good to consider ideals from time to time. Who knows what changes can and cannot be inacted?

 

But I can say this: When I am at home my world is pretty close to wu wei. The external world is not allowed in very often.

[woodcarver]

In their natural state, people take care of themselves and others.

[Marblehead]

In their natural state, people take care of themselves and others.

That is an interestig comment. True, I think, when there is no competition for resources. This is why I think the chapter speaks the truth. A small family of families, each helping to care for the others. There is enough. No need to visit the adjoining villages even though we can hear them in the distance.

 

And yes, I like to think that people can be like this.

[woodcarver]

It wouldn't even cross their mind, they're already fulfilled. Isn't traveling wanting something external?

Edited August 3, 2014 by woodcarver

[nestentrie]

[never post drunk]

Edited August 4, 2014 by nestentrie

[nestentrie]

...

Edited August 4, 2014 by nestentrie

[woodcarver]

I don't think chapter 80 is talking about the common people but a vision of a place where everyone is a sage. There are many stories on "the ancient sages" like this one.

[woodcarver]

Always post drunk!

[Marblehead]

Always post drunk!

Because you make more sense when you are drunk.

[Stosh]

I both agree with Cds idea that there is idealism here, but not that the idealism doesnt work,

its just that there is imperfection in its practice.

Repeatedly in other chapters the rationale behind the ideas, and I find the reasoning to be valid.

 

This chapter gives us a view of the goal ,

and the people may be benefitted by having an idea of what the result of social harmony would look like,

even if folks do not get to live up to it entirely.

( and one can take it for analogy for the individuals internal paradigm - at least on that scale it could be possible ,, the internal world of the 'sage' )

Edited August 4, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yes, it is idealism. But it is not an impossibility.

[dawei]

I both agree with Cds idea that there is idealism here, but not that the idealism doesnt work,

its just that there is imperfection in its practice.

Repeatedly in other chapters the rationale behind the ideas, and I find the reasoning to be valid.

 

This chapter gives us a view of the goal ,

and the people may be benefitted by having an idea of what the result of social harmony would look like,

even if folks do not get to live up to it entirely.

( and one can take it for analogy for the individuals internal paradigm - at least on that scale it could be possible ,, the internal world of the 'sage' )

 

Don't we find people around the world living in this simple way... outside of the modern society and living simply and within the group?

 

It may only be idealism to those who cannot live it.

 

In another thread someone asked how to practice outside given all the distractions... In the first place, 'practice' is not natural... so that is why there is a struggle. Knowing the ten thousand doesn't require a practice.

 

If one could get beyond concepts of 'practice', 'ideal', 'social harmony' as these simply cause seeking and grasping... then one realizes that practice itself is imperfect. Practice is a vehicle some are riding to get from A to B.

[Stosh]

Don't we find people around the world living in this simple way... outside of the modern society and living simply and within the group?

Maybe ,, I dont really know , Im from the big city .