Looking for guidance in a difficult space

[wakeupneo]

I posted this on another spiritual forum, figured i'd post it again.

 

First of all, I have lurked on this site before. After reading through some of the posts I resonated with the high quality of the information on this site. Also I could feel that individuals were speaking from experience and and not just grabing from their wealth of nondual concepts.

 

I've spent years dabbling in different traditions. About 5 years ago I had the pleasure of meeting a highly awakening individual here in the Chicagoland area. Sitting with him, being in his presence something awoke within me. By his grace I had awakened to pure consciousness, my subjective nature. His instruction to me was to abide as that. After a period of time, this individual left for India and has not come back. Most likely never will.

 

I followed my teacher's instruction. Consciously and constantly abiding very diligently. My work was hyper-masculine and very disciplined. I pretty much lived of my savings, took a sabbatical off of work. At the time my meditation practice was anywhere from 4-8hrs a day. The result of this practice was absolutely jarring. The identification with the body/mind was minimal. I was existing primarily through the universal experience, gone was the individual. Gate,gate, paragate.... Truth was so obvious and apparent, cause I was living through it, I WAS it. The words of the saints and sages came alive. People would communicate and I was smile delightfully at them as all I would see is symbolic sounds coming out of their mouths, there were no more words, no more concepts. The thought processes nearly halted. And when thoughts did arise, they were so transparent, and so impersonal, just like the monitor I'm currently looking at. It was the most transcendent time. Tons of superficial energy movements. Receiving and given shaktipat to nearly anyone/everyone inadvertently. The body was radiant and there was an intense fire in the eyes. Even this was neti, netied away....

 

After about a year of seclusion, I was rather rudely forced back into the world. Finances had become an issue, had accumulated a great amount of debt, my wife was getting restless, as I would just pass her by in the house without acknowledging her, and a part of me was a bit burnt out in the effort involved in maintaining this state of constant samadhi.

 

Slowly I found employment and started to re-integrate into the world. This was incredibly challenging. I felt like the cartoon character who has built a damn and is trying to prevent the leaks. A leak would spring and he would run up and seal it with a piece of chewing gum, and then another and another... That's how I felt. It was this frantic effort to maintain this state. To keep the purity. Fighting like hell!

 

Well eventually maya got the best of me. The neurosis of the mind has come back to a considerable degree. Identification with the body mind has returned to a considerable degree, suffering, anxiety, depression, the story of john, all this fun stuff kinda creeped back in and established roots.

 

Still there is a fight, I meditate when I can, anywhere from 2-3 hours a day now. Existentially, however the experience is very painful and depressing. Delusions of running away to a far away land and thoughts of suicide come up on almost a daily basis. Not to alarm anyone, these thoughts would never be acted upon...

 

Initially I searched to neo-advaita for an answer. What a joke. Most of the neo-advaita teachers are armed to the teeth with a vast array of nondual concepts and have a great understanding of it. I'm sure they have all have experienced some non-dual awakening, but so what? Awakening and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. It was my experience that they have no presence, their state of being is completely underdeveloped.

 

here is no absorption, no samadhi to their experience. They are limited to the realm of concepts/mind. All they parrot is the intellectual understanding of enlightenment.

 

Am I desperate? More or less.

 

Looking for advice. Looking for some reassuring words. Looking for help integrating the relative and absolute. Looking to reclaim that perfect peace without exception, looking to be myself. Looking for individuals locally whom to connect with.

 

Any and all feedback would be helpful in this period of difficulty that is being experienced. Thanks to all who have taken the the time to read through.

 

Hope you all enjoyed this fictional tale of the fictional character john. Yes, he has a wonderful imagination

 

love,

j

[stan herman]

I posted this on another spiritual forum, figured i'd post it again.

 

First of all, I have lurked on this site before. After reading through some of the posts I resonated with the high quality of the information on this site. Also I could feel that individuals were speaking from experience and and not just grabing from their wealth of nondual concepts.

 

I've spent years dabbling in different traditions. About 5 years ago I had the pleasure of meeting a highly awakening individual here in the Chicagoland area. Sitting with him, being in his presence something awoke within me. By his grace I had awakened to pure consciousness, my subjective nature. His instruction to me was to abide as that. After a period of time, this individual left for India and has not come back. Most likely never will.

 

I followed my teacher's instruction. Consciously and constantly abiding very diligently. My work was hyper-masculine and very disciplined. I pretty much lived of my savings, took a sabbatical off of work. At the time my meditation practice was anywhere from 4-8hrs a day. The result of this practice was absolutely jarring. The identification with the body/mind was minimal. I was existing primarily through the universal experience, gone was the individual. Gate,gate, paragate.... Truth was so obvious and apparent, cause I was living through it, I WAS it. The words of the saints and sages came alive. People would communicate and I was smile delightfully at them as all I would see is symbolic sounds coming out of their mouths, there were no more words, no more concepts. The thought processes nearly halted. And when thoughts did arise, they were so transparent, and so impersonal, just like the monitor I'm currently looking at. It was the most transcendent time. Tons of superficial energy movements. Receiving and given shaktipat to nearly anyone/everyone inadvertently. The body was radiant and there was an intense fire in the eyes. Even this was neti, netied away....

 

After about a year of seclusion, I was rather rudely forced back into the world. Finances had become an issue, had accumulated a great amount of debt, my wife was getting restless, as I would just pass her by in the house without acknowledging her, and a part of me was a bit burnt out in the effort involved in maintaining this state of constant samadhi.

 

Slowly I found employment and started to re-integrate into the world. This was incredibly challenging. I felt like the cartoon character who has built a damn and is trying to prevent the leaks. A leak would spring and he would run up and seal it with a piece of chewing gum, and then another and another... That's how I felt. It was this frantic effort to maintain this state. To keep the purity. Fighting like hell!

 

Well eventually maya got the best of me. The neurosis of the mind has come back to a considerable degree. Identification with the body mind has returned to a considerable degree, suffering, anxiety, depression, the story of john, all this fun stuff kinda creeped back in and established roots.

 

Still there is a fight, I meditate when I can, anywhere from 2-3 hours a day now. Existentially, however the experience is very painful and depressing. Delusions of running away to a far away land and thoughts of suicide come up on almost a daily basis. Not to alarm anyone, these thoughts would never be acted upon...

 

Initially I searched to neo-advaita for an answer. What a joke. Most of the neo-advaita teachers are armed to the teeth with a vast array of nondual concepts and have a great understanding of it. I'm sure they have all have experienced some non-dual awakening, but so what? Awakening and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. It was my experience that they have no presence, their state of being is completely underdeveloped.

 

here is no absorption, no samadhi to their experience. They are limited to the realm of concepts/mind. All they parrot is the intellectual understanding of enlightenment.

 

Am I desperate? More or less.

 

Looking for advice. Looking for some reassuring words. Looking for help integrating the relative and absolute. Looking to reclaim that perfect peace without exception, looking to be myself. Looking for individuals locally whom to connect with.

 

Any and all feedback would be helpful in this period of difficulty that is being experienced. Thanks to all who have taken the the time to read through.

 

Hope you all enjoyed this fictional tale of the fictional character john. Yes, he has a wonderful imagination

 

love,

j

 

Not clear to me if this is a put-on or not?? As for the request for reassuring words, there are these: You are not unique in your travails including desperation and thoughts of suicide, Also the impression-feeling I got from reading your specifics sound quite encouraging--relevant dilemmas, doubts, healthy discarding of intellectual analysis (those who talk ABOUT it, but avoid the experience like the plague. Keep on keepin' on bro, there's a pony out there for you somewherehttp://www.thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

 

Now, as for the advice: Get into the maya. It may be illusion, but it's YOUR illusion, so don't dis it. As for the pain, yeah it always happens for the dedicated ones, not much for the ones who like to play with the ideas only. There are ways of mitigating the pain and using it. People here can probably share some of their ideas with you.

[doc benway]

Not clear to me if this is a put-on or not?? As for the request for reassuring words, there are these: You are not unique in your travails including desperation and thoughts of suicide, Also the impression-feeling I got from reading your specifics sound quite encouraging--relevant dilemmas, doubts, healthy discarding of intellectual analysis (those who talk ABOUT it, but avoid the experience like the plague. Keep on keepin' on bro, there's a pony out there for you somewherehttp://www.thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

 

Now, as for the advice: Get into the maya. It may be illusion, but it's YOUR illusion, so don't dis it. As for the pain, yeah it always happens for the dedicated ones, not much for the ones who like to play with the ideas only. There are ways of mitigating the pain and using it. People here can probably share some of their ideas with you.

I would echo stan's words and add a few. It is relatively easy to abide without the pressures of the world weighing on your shoulders. It is a true test of the method and your mettle to bring your peace and compassion to the others in your life. Be a resource for them. By that I mean a source of love and light, support and humor, I don't mean to proselytize. You have re-entered the world for a reason. You are ready to take your insights and experience to the next level. See how it can truly transform your life, not only when you are hiding in a cave, but when you are immersed in humanity. And that can only be done in the world.

Good luck!

[Aetherous]

This is where spirituality becomes a problem. You should be able to earn a living and have fun with your wife while being present. You are present all day when you are working, or whatever...so how is it any different?

 

Disidentification is escapism, not presence.

 

Sitting on a cushion for hours in order to achieve a state of bliss and transcendence is simply attachment.

 

To each their own...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

After about a year of seclusion, I was rather rudely forced back into the world. Finances had become an issue, had accumulated a great amount of debt, my wife was getting restless, as I would just pass her by in the house without acknowledging her, and a part of me was a bit burnt out in the effort involved in maintaining this state of constant samadhi.

 

edited to shorted quote [why are we so insecure about justifying our lack of auto-writing, btw?]

 

What can I say? I sympathize.

I've thought about just doing the Homeless Brother thing. It's pretty serious, and feels semi-immoral towards our loved ones who we would be truly abandoning, but is stated for obvious reasons to be the only True Way to True Realization.

 

One of the many reasons it is stated necessary is that we will learn to live with interdependence. This can be also be realized in a regular job, since we depend on numerous people in most jobs - we can destroy our super-ego and truly appreciate them for helping us.

 

That's all I got for you man. Good luck. Lol.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ejr1069]

I'm no guru. In fact, I am on the path to enlightenment but still have a ways to go in my journey. So please consider the source. But as you asked for my input, I shall share it.

 

1. Is enlightenment worth pursuing if you can't fit into society at some level? If you can't earn a living? If you must become a burden to others? If you can't act out of love, compassion and joy with your wife? That life hardly seems like a life worth living. As much as our souls want union with the divine, we also strive for communion and fellowship with others and to make a positive impact on society. These must be incorporated to a healthy life style in my opinion.

 

2. If you are depressed, go within. Ask yourself what limiting thoughts and behaviors are taking you away from your heart center where your truth is? Our true nature is that of the creator: light, love, joy, compassion. If your thoughts are taking you away from this space, let them go, dissociate from them and find other thoughts. Work on yourself. Test to see if your negative thoughts are true. Imagine how you would feel without those negative thoughts, then replace them with thoughts that add to your peace or your joy. Change your thoughts, change your world.

 

3. Set goals of the physical world and strive to achieve them. We almost always feel fulfilled when what we are doing is fully engaging us.

 

You gotta have balance. Find a nice mix of spiritual and phsyical pursuits.

[Aaron]

The Zen masters talk about how one should interact with the world once they reach enlightenment. The consensus seems to be that once you have reached "true" enlightenment, that you should chop wood, carry water, take a shit, and wash your hands. The key is being aware while you are doing these things.

 

If you are having trouble adapting to the world again, it seems to make sense, especially if you haven't done these things in a long time. From someone who has had the same experience, even down to the doubt about myself for struggling to adapt, what I can say is that when we struggle there is reason for it. You seem to know why you are struggling, so I would suggest quit struggling and just do.

 

Do what you have to, but remember that what you do is not who you are. A man may tend a garden, but that doesn't make him a gardener. A man may bake bread, but that does not make him a baker. Be what you are (and are not) and don't worry about the rest.

 

Aaron

Edited June 3, 2011 by Twinner

[alect]

Sounds intense. It is common, at least so far as I have seen, experienced and heard, for these sensations to arise from meditation. Often times, beginning practioners will arise from their states and describe feelings of dissociation; "I couldn't recognize people, and I didn't know who I was, where I was... etc."

Meditation, in my opinion, while it can be transcendental and expose truth---

is primarily a primitive function in place to rest and heal at a faster pace than when either asleep or awake in between the time of hunting and gathering. We were/are plains creatures after-all. We are not the only animals to "meditate."

Perhaps intent will indeed expose to you truths. This is something called "invocation."

You say, "I am grateful," during a meditation, and you will be grateful. You say, "show me a truth about 'bla bla bla,'" and it will be shown, (or not.)

The truth and these feelings of serenity are nice. But ultimately, as you experienced, they will always be poisoned by something my teacher calls, "the social mind." The software we are born with. The cultural boundaries that exist only within our minds that seem only possible to escape when living in absolute seclusion.

This would be difficult, because we are communal creatures. People make us happy as much as they disturb our inner peace.

Perhaps you should try doing more than just meditation. There's Qi Gong. You could learn a lot from many forms of Qi Gong if you don't practice already. Or you could invent your own, honestly, a lot of it is simply power of imagination and will.

I would strongly recommend you resist, however. You have taken a path of acceptance, but it might be useful for you to fight a little bit. Exercise or do Kung Fu, or just flex all of your muscles and scream every once and awhile.

There's no one way to reach enlightenment, because enlightenment is different than what new age culture paints it to be. There is no milestone or sure point at which you are enlightened; this too will fade. There is only clarity, happiness, love, and suffering.

 

Maybe

I mean I don't fuckin' know, I haven't meditated for 3-6 hours a day before. Just trying to help.

[fiveelementtao]

First, Let me say, I sympathize with you and congratulate your courage to share your feelings.. I went through similar experiences myself in the quest for spiritual growth...

 

Having said that, I also believe that you are not alone in your understanding of consciousness/enlightenment and whatnot...

 

By his grace I had awakened to pure consciousness

 

By HIS grace? Really? Any true teacher will never take responsibility for their student's progress nor will they allow their student to infer it upon them. If this man was allowing you to believe that he was the source of your spiritual accomplishments, I suggest that he either was ill informed of the nature of consciousness or he was outright misleading you... In any case, it was harmful to your progress to believe that anyone other than you is responsible for your spiritual growth...

 

In light of your statement that you "had awakened to pure consciousness" I would suggest that perhaps your definition of pure consciousness may be limited... dare I say, perhaps even inaccurate?

 

If your consciousness was pure meaning complete, you would also have had total awareness of your physical needs which includes money etc... If as you say, you were unaware of your physical, mundane existence, then is it really awareness/consciousness/enlightenment?

 

IME, and IMO, many young seekers are mistaking energy experiences, states of mind etc... for enlightenment... I also have observed that IMO, many who seek what they term as enlightenment is really escape from painful emotions. True enlightenment includes facing one's emotional pain, not escaping it...

 

It also underscores the Western complete misunderstanding of enlightenment as a fixed state that once it has been achieved never changes...

 

True spiritual accomplishment is accompanied by balance in one's internal AND external state.

 

Anyway... perhaps I have not helped you. But, I think maybe a rethinking of what consciousness is and enlightnment is may be helpful. But, I do encourage you to keep talking and working through your feelings...

 

For myself, I no longer believe in enlightenment as a fixed endpoint. My experience has confirmed that enlightenment is a process that does not end, not even after death. The gods themselves are still learning and growing... We are no different in that regard. At least, IMO...

 

But this is only my limited opinion based on my limited experience...others may feel differently based on their experience...

 

In any case... Good luck,

Mike

[Otis]

Hi John,

 

My path has been very different than yours, and I can't suggest what you may need. I do want to say that I've also experienced growth as a very cyclical thing. I have periods of great movement forward in certain areas of my life, and then the other areas that have not yet grown, suddenly start acting up and demanding my attention. I move forward again, only to find new things that I hadn't known to look at.

 

Also, I don't think that any one state is where it's at, honestly. I think freedom means being able to be present over the entire range of being human, through all emotions, in all forms of consciousness.

[Marblehead]

This is where spirituality becomes a problem. You should be able to earn a living and have fun with your wife while being present. You are present all day when you are working, or whatever...so how is it any different?

 

Disidentification is escapism, not presence.

 

Sitting on a cushion for hours in order to achieve a state of bliss and transcendence is simply attachment.

 

To each their own...

 

I just wanted to repeat this because I like it a lot.

 

One can practice their spirituality anywhere, anytime. It doesn't require being lazy and apathetic.

 

One can practice their spirituality while working, while playing with their children, while making love with one's wife or even someone else's wife.

[C T]

Hi John... welcome to the forum. Great place to be, well, almost always... sometimes holes do appear, and people fall in, but no matter, cos all we end up with are grazes mostly, so we climb up, brush ourselves off, and keep walking, and learning in the process. Life is also a bit like this, right? Its a direct reflection of when we were babies, learning to wobbly walk in the first few months of life. Oh the joys of tumbling, the giggles, the tears... it was all so spontaneous. Imagine if we had an adult mind back then, lol, it could well spell the end of learning to walk what with all the knocks we had gotten back then. The ability to adjust, thankfully, was in-built, but often, as we get conditioned in the process we call 'growing up' (funny isn't it? Growing up... sounds so noble) we forget this very gift that got us out of a lot of trouble back in the days...

 

What i remind myself occasionally is that the wobbliness in life never totally leaves us. We just think we are all grown up now and have to resist the different ways and degrees in which the wobbliness manifest now. This resistance takes as many different forms as the manifestations do, and for each time the wobble shows up to help us learn, we turn away in disgust, oblivious to the fact that by doing so, we strengthen the resistance by finding more complex ways to resist even more, and in the process, lose the essence of seeing the stumbles and the fumblings for what they are - vital keystrokes that help re-align our direction for growth.

 

The idea, of course, is to ask that we re-connect with that aspect of our being that allows for the unconditional acceptance that we are, or ought to be anyway, prone to vulnerability. Not that we should actively force this vulnerability to arise by seeking for it, because by so doing, it creates the opposite effect, hence, instead of using this vulnerable aspect of our being (which resides in the heart) as an ally to our growth, we are immediately presented with a twisted logic, which in due time may create neurotic tendencies resulting in neurotic thoughts, emotions and behavior.

 

In adulthood, the emphasis is on the willingness to let go of things, to develop a mental space where we become less attached to things. Its like we are on this life- train where we told to be vigilant, for bandits may appear at anytime, and in order to maintain safety, we have to be prepared to unload the cargo to allow for an incident-free journey. The moment we become caught by the allure of what we carrying, these baggages, our load in life, so to speak, be it material or spiritual attainments (enlightenment? haha), relationships, anything at all, we create the probable causes for suffering to arise. Note the keyword here is probable, meaning that they are only potential stumbling blocks, depending relatively on how much we cling to these things (if seen as useful and nice) or reject them (if seen as unpleasant or distasteful), that is the same degree of their potential to cause us to become dissatisfied and unhappy. Not that these things are good or bad in themselves, for they never last anyway - its how we relate to them, and how we play the game of 'Now i want it, now i don't' that determines if they become a hindrance or a building block towards a more relaxed being, or a more sane being. It is often said that if there are gold bars on a boat, and halfways crossing the big river this boat springs a small leak, if the need arises to throw them bars overboard in order to cross safely, one would not hesitate for a moment to do so. So the value of anything, really, is pretty relative, and changes accordingly.

 

Please do not take what's been said here as a truth - its merely a reflection based upon my own subjective observations of how my life has taken shape so far, and seeing that there is space here to share it, i have done so in the hope that it will give you some added dimension with which to see into your own situation with a little more clarity. It is only a very minor perspective, so please accept or reject it accordingly.

 

I do wish the best for you though, and will remember you in my prayers.

Edited June 3, 2011 by CowTao

[JohnC]

A quote comes to mind that... you know how enlightened you are based on how your relations with your family are.. or something like that.

 

The point being that in the world there is more work to be done, while if your away from it it is easy... because there are no triggers, no psych to dig through, no boundaries to examine within yourself.

 

I think all this stuff is just more opportunity for you to get clear and dig deeper within yourself.

 

Good luck man.

 

John

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Dan Millman: Living as a Peaceful Warrior (excerpt) - Thinking Allowed w/ Jeffrey Mishlove

 

 

 

Gives some more perspective on our situations, I believe. It's all talk (rather than application and practice), but it might be useful.

[Bluefront]

Have you ever asked yourself why you do all of this crap. Meditating. Burning incense. Studying books. Performing weird movements.

 

I think many people who "struggle with spirituality" do it because they believe it will fix their problems somehow.

 

My tip is take some time off from everything "spiritual". Live life. Laugh. Cry. Be depressed. Be happy. BE.

Go with your flow. Don't force stuff that doesn't feel right.

 

Stop looking for guidance. Stop searching. You already know everything. There is nothing to realize. Maybe you just don't see it yet. Thats fine too.

 

Take some time building trust with yourself. Live by your feelings rather than external concepts and ideas.

[thelerner]

You've been and probably are at a higher level then most of us here; certainly myself, so its hard to give advice. Still, that hasn't stopped me in the past, so why should it now?

 

Ummn, all I could say is, when you get integrated, and it will happen, even if you do nothing, its just a matter of time until you find your middle ground. When you do, you'll have the best of both worlds.

 

Michael

[Birch]

I dunno about this one. Does sound something like a state I went through for a week or so but thankfully I came back. Which I think, is the point. You come back from all of that in order to be able to do something with it. Otherwise? Pointless IME/IMO.

 

Now this is not to disparage and I hope that you have courage that integration into life is possible. But it does seem like you could benefit from taking a more active role in your experiences. of course if you don't want to, you're entirely free to do so. That's the point.

[Otis]

It is a true test of the method and your mettle to bring your peace and compassion to the others in your life. Be a resource for them. By that I mean a source of love and light, support and humor, I don't mean to proselytize.

Good distinction.

[3bob]

the dharma of a "householder" is not the dharma of a "monk" or renunciate...

 

one trying to do both spoils two.

 

come to terms with and decide your path and affairs one way or the other, although such may change again at another time, in the meantime do well with one choice.

[wearydreamer]

Hi wakeupneo,

 

This psycho somatice apparatus, especially with all the psyche/consciousness developed all over the lifetime, has in its nature to fall into maya and identification. But as your attention has been to perception of the Reality once, it should be possible to redirect it there again on regular basis. Instantly there would be just the Awareness watching the character, John doing the daily chores of life. Though even that thought will have identification coming into play and even this, recursively. Quoting TTC, "More word count less. Hold fast to the center"

Also living with dis-identification should change nature of psyche in longer run.

Edited June 4, 2011 by wearydreamer