Tao God

[giggos]

[giggos]

In spiritual world, there are two things to satisfy people's spiritual need, religion and family. China is the civilization based on family in spiritual field instead of religion, china can also keep stable society without prominant religions in its history.

There is a proverb:Man's heart is incomprehensible. That's because when you tried to judge others' mind, this behavior would cause the change of their minds. Trust is originated from family relations, such as: consanguinity(blood relationship), sharing the same ambitions or purposes, share the same hatred for a common enemy.

[3deedit]

to see the concept of 11&77

[deci belle]

[giggos]

Confucian can't count as a religion. It is actually a hierarchy system of ceremony, the core of confucian is family-society. Confucian regards emperor as son of heaven who plays the role of god. The command of emperor is the intent of god. The confucian system perfectly matchs closed-farming society, but it limits the development of human beings and society. That is why science didn't emerge in ancient china. Dongzhongshu(BC179-BC104) , a confucian in han dynasty, suggest to implement exclusive dedication to Confucianism. Since then, china started 2000 years rules of Confucianism. But before dongzhongshu, emperors wen and jing ever tried taoism to govern the country.

In fact, confucian is a kind of ceremony philosophy, people always try to seek logical basis from complicated ceremonies.

The explanation of taoism traditionally is literal, very limited and biased. The tai-chi diagram was created by a taoist in song dynasty, called chentuan. But this diagram effectively explained the meaning of tao: the world is constructed by yin and yang, both of them interpenertrated each other, yin has part of yang, and yang has part of yin.

Modern scientific method is based on logical reasoning and experimental evidence. But the string theory cann't be strictly deducted and consided unproven.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Hi Giggos,

 

I'm just wondering why you feel the need to equate Tao with "God".

 

Your above explanation suggests that the 'big bang' was Tao's first action of this present universe. I accept this.

 

It is stated by Lao Tzu that Tao follows Tzujan. Tzujan being the natural processes of Tao. Tzujan is a verb, not a noun. This negates the possibility of designating Tzujan as 'God'.

 

If Tao is 'all things and all non-thing' then it is not reasonable to say that Tao is "any particulat thing" - God.

 

In my opinion there isn't any need whatever to have any god if the concept of Tzujan is accepted to be valid. And I suggest that simply by observing we can see that there are natural processes in the universe that are consistently true (when we fully understand what we are observing).

[giggos]

God I mentioned, is not a human-like figure, but a invisible,unperceived, and unsurpassed matrix system.

[Marblehead]

God I mentioned, is not a human-like figure, but a invisible,unperceived, and unsurpassed matrix system.

 

Hehehe. So why even imagine such an existance?

[giggos]

Without an unsurpassed God, equality of human beings is hollow words. People struggling for power and wealth had better notice there are supreme power over their heads. But from the perspective of "wu wei", if those people are born to fight for victory, then this behavior is also wu wei. The final result is decided by Tao.

[Vajrahridaya]

Without an unsurpassed God, equality of human beings is hollow words. People struggling for power and wealth had better notice there are supreme power over their heads. But from the perspective of "wu wei", if those people are born to fight for victory, then this behavior is also wu wei. The final result is decided by Tao.

 

Belief in a single god has not done the monotheists so well.

 

I like Buddhism better, no supreme godhead, just a creative matrix, no supreme will... just us, co-creating.

 

I like Taoism as well without Theism, much like Marblehead, except I do believe in the mystical side of life, that is not generally detected by the 5 senses.

 

I think most Taoists do fine without putting a supreme identity over this creative matrix.

[giggos]

Buddhism instructs people should cultivate the moral character and nourish the nature, do good deeds. But the most important part of buddhism theroy is "Everything visible is empty." Following is the story about shenxiu master and Huineng in Tang Dynasties.

Shenxiu and huineng are required to write a zen buddhism poem to get the position of abbot.

 

shenxiu writes:

 

Body is a bodhi tree,

the heart like a mirror sets;

always wipe off ground,

without rendering the dust alight.

 

huineng writes:

There is no Bodhi tree,

nor stand mirror;

had no one,

where can the dust alight?

 

 

[Marblehead]

Without an unsurpassed God, equality of human beings is hollow words. People struggling for power and wealth had better notice there are supreme power over their heads. But from the perspective of "wu wei", if those people are born to fight for victory, then this behavior is also wu wei. The final result is decided by Tao.

 

But is there even a decision made? I think not. Everything will be a result of 'cause and effect', Tzujan, the natural processes.

 

To the rest of your post, I agree. Life itself can be very hollow if we allow it to be. But we can dance if we want.

[Marblehead]

Belief in a single god has not done the monotheists so well.

 

I like Buddhism better, no supreme godhead, just a creative matrix, no supreme will... just us, co-creating.

 

I like Taoism as well without Theism, much like Marblehead, except I do believe in the mystical side of life, that is not generally detected by the 5 senses.

 

I think most Taoists do fine without putting a supreme identity over this creative matrix.

 

Nicely said, especially considering it came from my Buddhist friend.

[ChiDragon]

Without an unsurpassed God, equality of human beings is hollow words. People struggling for power and wealth had better notice there are supreme power over their heads. But from the perspective of "wu wei", if those people are born to fight for victory, then this behavior is also wu wei. The final result is decided by Tao.

 

By LaoTze's definition of Wu Wei is not to start a war rather settle matters in a peaceful manner. Starting a war is not natural to LaoTze. What make you think that winning a war was natural decided by Tao....???

 

 

Edited to add:

In this thread, are we within the scope of the Tao Te Ching or Buddhism....???

Edited June 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[giggos]

Chapter2

When people see things as beautiful,ugliness is created.

When people see things as good,evil is created.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

how to define beauty and uliness? confucian through ceremony, modern socity through votes, some kinds of religions through religion doctrine. In tao perspective, they are like peace and war, are Internal Unity of Material and Spirit.

 

 

chapter22

If you want to become whole,

first let yourself become broken.

If you want to become straight,

first let yourself become twisted.

If you want to become full,

first let yourself become empty.

If you want to become new,

first let yourself become old.

Those whose desires are few gets them,

those whose desires are great go astray.

For this reason the Master embraces the Tao,

as an example for the world to follow.

------------------------------------------

Whole and broken, straight and twisted didn't refer to a specific individual. They are parts of a bigger scope. For example, someone or something at sometime being twisted would cause a bigger part being straight.

 

 

cahpter30

Those who lead people by following the Tao

don't use weapons to enforce their will.

Using force always leads to unseen troubles.

In the places where armies march,

thorns and briars bloom and grow.

After armies take to war,

bad years must always follow.

The skillful commander

strikes a decisive blow then stops.

When victory is won over the enemy through war

it is not a thing of great pride.

When the battle is over,

arrogance is the new enemy.

War can result when no other alternative is given,

so the one who overcomes an enemy should not dominate them.

The strong always weakened with time.

This is not the way of the Tao.

That which is not of the Tao will soon end.

----------------------------------------------

The final result of war is not only depended on intent of associated power, but more of a natural process. A war might be a factor of peace on a wider scope. Just like butterfly effect, some kinds of good or bad behaviors would cause unpredictable domino effect.

 

 

38

The highest good is not to seek to do good,

but to allow yourself to become it.

The ordinary person seeks to do good things,

and finds that they can not do them continually.

---------------------------------------------------

people catering for tao have virtue.

people not catering for tao, but tring to prove they had virtue, have no virtue.

 

 

When the Tao is forgotten, there is righteousness.

When righteousness is forgotten, there is morality.

When morality is forgotten, there is the law.

The law is the husk of faith,

and trust is the beginning of chaos.

----------------------------------------------------

Ignore tao, then establish morality.

Ignore morality, then establish kindness.

Ignore kindness, then establish loyalty.

Ignore loyalty, then establish ceremony(to express morality,kindness or loyalty intent).

Now ceremony is the thinning out of loyalty and honesty.

And the beginning of chaos.

 

 

49

She understands the mind of the people.

To those who are good she treats as good.

To those who aren't good she also treats as good.

This is how she attains true goodness.

She trusts people who are trustworthy.

She also trusts people who aren't trustworthy.

This is how she gains true trust.

------------------------------------

Good guys and bad guys are all parts of the cosmos. Good guys might be bad guys in the eyes of bad guys. Bad guys might be good guys in the eyes of bad guys. It's because of the difference on evaluation basis.

[Marblehead]

I like that translation of Chapter 22. I think I will repeat it.

 

chapter22

If you want to become whole,

first let yourself become broken.

If you want to become straight,

first let yourself become twisted.

If you want to become full,

first let yourself become empty.

If you want to become new,

first let yourself become old.

Those whose desires are few gets them,

those whose desires are great go astray.

For this reason the Master embraces the Tao,

as an example for the world to follow.

 

In most translations this chapter speaks to concepts in general terms. In this translation we are speaking directly to the idea of a person (any individual) building character and thereby cultivating 'virtue'.

 

In the cultivation of 'virtue' we must first become all these thing: Broken, Twisted, Empty, Old (wise), and remain on the Main Path (the path of Tao). Then we will become a model to be followed.

 

War and peace are rooted in man's desires - the desire for more. To know when we have enough is true contentment and the road to peace.

[giggos]

 

In the cultivation of 'virtue' we must first become all these thing: Broken, Twisted, Empty, Old (wise), and remain on the Main Path (the path of Tao). Then we will become a model to be followed.

 

War and peace are rooted in man's desires - the desire for more. To know when we have enough is true contentment and the road to peace.

 

agree

[3deedit]

one leads to chapter 63& two leads to chapter 44: why seeMy linkclick on tao to see the reading sequence, read the Ebook 3D tarot to see Fibonacci nrs that relate to the sequence

44 Contentment 25

 

8

 

 

BIO

 

 

new awareness, change, birth

 

 

Fame or integrity: which is more important?

Money or happiness: which is more valuable?

Success of failure: which is more destructive?

 

If you look to others for fulfillment,

you will never truly be fulfilled.

If your happiness depends on money,

you will never be happy with yourself.

 

Be content with what you have;

rejoice in the way things are.

When you realize there is nothing lacking,

the whole world belongs to you.

[3deedit]

God I mentioned, is not a human-like figure, but a invisible,unperceived, and unsurpassed matrix system.

My link

[manitou]

 

no supreme godhead, just a creative matrix, no supreme will... just us, co-creating.

 

 

 

 

This.

[Protector]

ah the classic mistake of confusing Tao with God, carry on

[doc benway]

Tzujan is a verb, not a noun. This negates the possibility of designating Tzujan as 'God'.

 

If Tao is 'all things and all non-thing' then it is not reasonable to say that Tao is "any particulat thing" - God.

 

Why can't God be a verb? After all, we are doings... not things.

 

Why does God have to be "any particular thing?" In fact, I would postulate that God can never be defined or pinned down to "any particular thing" or things. God is analogous to Dao insofar as it cannot be defined, categorized, classified, or replaced with words or images. All of it falls way short, every tradition and explanation. Empty words and ideas trying to capture that which will forever elude our grasp.

 

 

Here's an interesting translation of Chapter I of Dao De Jing:

 

God (the great everlasting infinite First Cause from whom all things in heaven and earth proceed) can neither be defined nor named.

 

For the God which can be defined or named is but the Creator, the Great Mother of all those things of which our senses have cognisance.

 

Now he who would gain a knowledge of the nature and attributes of the nameless and undefinable God, must first set himself free from all earthly desires, for unless he can do this, he will be unable to penetrate the material veil which interposes between him and those spiritual conditions into which he would obtain an insight.

 

Yet the spiritual and the material, though known to us under different names, are similar in origin, and issue from the same source, and the same obscurity belongs to both, for deep indeed is the darkness which enshrouds the portals through which we have to pass, in order to gain a knowledge of these mysteries.

 

Translated by G.G. Alexander (1895)

 

 

And don't misunderstand me - I'm not advocating belief in God, use of the word God, or equating God with Dao.

It's all just words and concepts and thoughts...

 

What is, is.

We can't know it, our brains are too limited.

We can't define it, words and ideas will never be sufficient.

But that's OK because we ARE it and that's more than enough!