Opening the Kundalini: How?

[mantis]

Thread title.

 

What's the most efficient way of achieving a Kundalini awakening?

[Vajrahridaya]

Thread title.

 

What's the most efficient way of achieving a Kundalini awakening?

 

In my experience, Shaktipat. A living catalyst. It's freakin' powerful. Then again, I don't recommend it.

 

Here...

 

http://easternhealingarts.com/Articles/KundaliniTibet.html

[Vajrahridaya]

In Dzogchen, the Buddhist tradition from Vajrayana Buddhism, most closely associated with Tibetan Buddhism, you get transmission of Rigpa, which is primordial awareness which is more of a top down approach than the bottom up approach of Hindu Shaktipat traditions. I recommend this better as you will not go through the harsh physical crap from the bottom up approach that happens to people who aren't physically purified in order to get the kundalini awakening. Having had both, I think the Buddhist tradition of awakening the energy and getting it into the central channel is safer, personally.

[Creation]

In Dzogchen, the Buddhist tradition from Vajrayana Buddhism, most closely associated with Tibetan Buddhism, you get transmission of Rigpa, which is primordial awareness which is more of a top down approach than the bottom up approach of Hindu Shaktipat traditions. I recommend this better as you will not go through the harsh physical crap from the bottom up approach that happens to people who aren't physically purified in order to get the kundalini awakening. Having had both, I think the Buddhist tradition of awakening the energy and getting it into the central channel is safer, personally.

When you received Shatktipat from those in Nityananda's lineage, what it always this "bottom up, make you go boom" apprach? Because in my (admittedly very limited) experience of getting shaktipat from Mark Griffin, it was very much a "top down" approach. In fact, he spoke a lot about that, working with the crown and the planes above the crown, bringing all of that down through sushumna, especially crown to heart connection. He did study with Kalu Rinpoche and Chogyam Trungpa after Muktananda passed on, though.

 

 

mantis,

 

I can't personally speak about the most efficient way, but you might find this interesting:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18071-cobra-breath-kundalini-practices/

Edited June 5, 2011 by Creation

[Vajrahridaya]

When you received Shatktipat from those in Nityananda's lineage, what it always this "bottom up, make you go boom" apprach? Because in my (admittedly very limited) experience of getting shaktipat from Mark Griffin, it was very much a "top down" approach. In fact, he spoke a lot about that, working with the crown and the planes above the crown, bringing all of that down through sushumna, especially crown to heart connection. He did study with Kalu Rinpoche and Chogyam Trungpa after Muktananda passed on, though.

 

 

mantis,

 

I can't personally speak about the most efficient way, but you might find this interesting:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18071-cobra-breath-kundalini-practices/

 

Hi Mantis,

 

Actually you are right... and that's a no. My Shaktipat was top down at 13 or 14? Maybe 16? Which Swami Muktananda said can happen for certain people. I went straight into formless samadhi of absolutely no ground, no eye lids, etc, no time, but purely conscious without an object, beyond perception and non-perception. Then had the various visions manifest until I was in body consciousness again, including the red light suffusing the physical body that Muktananda talks about in Play of Consciousness, which I didn't read until years later by the way. But yes, if Mark trained with the Vajrayana lineage, which Muktananda actually said to some students to go do that. He wasn't all into ownership like some people make him out to be, he did send some people to Vajrayana Masters. Muktananda even did an intensive with the previous Karmapa before he passed on, I think in Colorado? Anyway... yes, Muktananda gave genuine Shaktipat, so does Gurumayi and mine was top down from Gurumayi. I didn't have any physical kriyas, my process was quite smooth. A little bit of shocks, energy spikes, during some stages of meditation over the years but that's about it.

[Vajrahridaya]

Interesting, I swear I've seen Mark before. He met Muktananda at the same place and time my Mom did. 1976 in San Francisco. That's interesting.

[fiveelementtao]

The most efficient way? Live life responsibly and learn life lessons. Grow in maturity. Seek to resolve your karmic issues. Kundalini is not an energy to be manipulated like Chi just for physical experiences. If you practice any energy work or meditation AND you simultaneously seek to be an emotionally mature person, your kundalini will "open" and rise through the chakras. It is only those who try to "open" Her without the requisite emotional maturity that end up with "kundalini syndrome." If She arises naturally then you may not even feel her, because it is a natural process.

Forget about trying to "open" kundalini. It is a complete misunderstanding of the process...

[fiveelementtao]

For those serious about learning Who Kundalini is and how to awaken Her, I recommend a book called "Kundalini" by Robert E Svoboda. He shares the traditional tantric understanding of Who Kundalini is, Her purpose and what to do to awaken Her.

 

I will say that the vast majority of what you read on this forum about Kundalini is really just overstimulation of the nervous system, not actual Kundalini.

[phore]

I think that shaktipats from whatever tradition you encounter combined with qigong is a very effective means to prepare for the kundalini.

As 5elementtao mentioned you have to develop emotional maturity. I personally had to shake up my routine by going on some adventures. Climb a mountain, go on a roadtrip, fall in love, make some new friends, go to a music festival, help people in need ect.

Ive noticed that many people seem to fear mind expansion as much if not more than death. Center in love and light and allow your actions to flow naturally from this state.

 

Try eating naturally this tends to smooth the process considerably. I like raw honey, yerba mate, reishi mushroom, greens, berries, maca, and some other herbs and plants.

 

Pray. It doesnt have to be any particular tradition. Communicate with the divine and tune into the divine message.

 

And of course theres nothing to fear but fear itself.

Nothing to fear

Edited June 5, 2011 by phore

[ShaktiMama]

In my experience, Shaktipat. A living catalyst. It's freakin' powerful. Then again, I don't recommend it.

 

Here...

 

http://easternhealingarts.com/Articles/KundaliniTibet.html

 

 

yes, it is. especially from a shaktipat guru. I can't recommend anything. I think it's more relevant to know why first. Why you want to does have a direct correlation to how it unfolds for you. The most efficient is for the patient. Three years with either yoga or qigong practice. That way the practice clears the "pipes" or energy channels so the opening is smooth.

 

It is a life time committment so choose wisely.

 

Fast awakening can be done. It was used in ancient times to awaken the energy up to the 1st and 2nd dantien in the military. If your enemy is coming across the country to invade your country one only has a certain period of time to develop almost a supernatural strength and skill for an advantage. Cultivate the first dantien for the cannon fodder, er I mean foot soldiers. 2nd dantien was for officers and third dantien was for the military and religious elite. Also royalty.

 

Or at least Dr. Glenn Morris used to teach that.

Edited June 5, 2011 by ShaktiMama

[everseeking]

:-) This is me loving the KAP 1 class I'm in- that I finally got around to taking, and my sweet RN job. Thanks for all the free global Shaktipat sessions Suzanne!!! (And Santi!!)

[Vajrahridaya]

yes, it is. especially from a shaktipat guru. I can't recommend anything. I think it's more relevant to know why first. Why you want to does have a direct correlation to how it unfolds for you. The most efficient is for the patient. Three years with either yoga or qigong practice. That way the practice clears the "pipes" or energy channels so the opening is smooth.

 

It is a life time committment so choose wisely.

 

 

Exactly.

[Mandrake]

Fast awakening can be done. It was used in ancient times to awaken the energy up to the 1st and 2nd dantien in the military. If your enemy is coming across the country to invade your country one only has a certain period of time to develop almost a supernatural strength and skill for an advantage. Cultivate the first dantien for the cannon fodder, er I mean foot soldiers. 2nd dantien was for officers and third dantien was for the military and religious elite. Also royalty.

 

Or at least Dr. Glenn Morris used to teach that.

 

ShaktiMama,

This is interesting, but do you happen to have any sources on this? Alternatively, where did Glenn Morris get this from?

 

Mandrake

[ShaktiMama]

ShaktiMama,

This is interesting, but do you happen to have any sources on this? Alternatively, where did Glenn Morris get this from?

 

Mandrake

 

 

He used to say this all the time in KAP class. He spent a lot of time in Japan studying. He also met quite a few masters in his lifetime. He was a prodigious reader (his library was legendary) but I dont remember where it came from. It may have also been mentioned in one of his books. He has extensive biblios in them. I know he was considered an expert on war and strategy.

 

Santi (vajrasattva) or one of the other of his deshis might now. I will ask around.

 

Another thing I remember him saying was fear was a great awakener of kundalini. It was the adrenaline response that would accelerate the opening. Fortunately, that doesnt seem to be used anymore.

 

But, severe emotional trauma has been known to start the k moving spontaneously.

[fiveelementtao]

Kundalini is the "Ahamkara" according to Tantric hindu yogis. Ahamkara means the " 'I am' Maker". This means that Kundalini is the creator of the divine "self" within the individual. (Remember that Kundalini is a sanskrit word originated by hindu yogis. IMO, if one truly wants to know what kundalini is then it has merit to at least study the original tradition that word originated from.) The original intent of the practice of Kundalini yoga in East Indian mysticism was to expand the "self" through identification with a deity. Then the Kundalini or "self maker" has a vessel through which to expand the personality and consciousness of the individual.

 

Traditionally the arising of Kundalini was intended to be done through worship of a deity. Tantra consists of Meditation, Pranayama (qigong), Yantra (using mandalas/ sacred symbols) and Mantra. Mantras create the deity within the body. Yantras align the brainwaves to vibrate in accordance with a deity that creates a replica of the deity in the sadakh's body, allowing the kundalini or "divine self" of the individual to conform to the deity in question.

 

When Kundalini is awoken by trauma, fear accident or by energy techniques WITHOUT using a diety or proper tantra (technique) to contain the power, then you run the risk of blowing out emotional and nervous system circuits. You also run the risk of creating a monster within yourself because the personality created by the kundalini has no boundaries. Kundalini is shakti and needs a shiva to identify with. Shiva is the definition created by the deity in question. Shakti is the power of the Divine self. If the shakti has no shiva, then it is pure chaos. If the Shiva has no shakti, then it is only a shava (corpse). The deity becomes the vessel to contain the kundalini and then the kundalini takes on the personality of the deity. Can you imagine having a deity at your command. That is what proper kundalini yoga can do.

 

Kundalini syndrome as many may know can be blissful or can be chaotic and frightening. Why? because the kundalini in these cases has no boundaries and the personality of the individual in question has not aligned their human personality with the kundalini. So, the divine self within does not know who or what it is and has no vessel to contain the power. So the energy runs rampant and can cause all kinds of problems. Even if the person experiences bliss, it is still chaotic and can destroy their lives. Kundalini is no joke and should not be messed with without guidance and proper technique.

 

The tantric yogis knew what they were doing when they devised their tantras (techniques).

 

IMO, better to leave kundalini alone than to awaken Her without knowledge. Many who have done so without knowledge wish they had not...

 

For those already with kundalini syndrome, seek out a deity and ask the deity to control the shakti for you...

 

(edit) BTW, when kundalini is awakened in a controlled manner through proper tantra, then there is no crazy side effects. There is often no physical sensations at all, because kundalini is aroused into the deity formed within the individual. It is just an orderly expansion of the divine self. any mind expansion is able to be understood by the individual. Instead of craziness, you have simply an orderly expansion of knowledge and consciousness...

Edited June 6, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Vajrahridaya]

 

(edit) BTW, when kundalini is awakened in a controlled manner through proper tantra, then there is no crazy side effects. There is often no physical sensations at all, because kundalini is aroused into the deity formed within the individual. It is just an orderly expansion of the divine self. any mind expansion is able to be understood by the individual. Instead of craziness, you have simply an orderly expansion of knowledge and consciousness...

 

Yes, but there is still a process of purification. That expansion does still burn through the dross, so there is an expulsion process, but that's what the practices are for, and that's why it's smooth, through the practices and regular eating habits, yogic postures, devotional chanting... these energies are transformed and the individual personality is purified.

[markern]

Kundalini is the "Ahamkara" according to Tantric hindu yogis. Ahamkara means the " 'I am' Maker". This means that Kundalini is the creator of the divine "self" within the individual. (Remember that Kundalini is a sanskrit word originated by hindu yogis. IMO, if one truly wants to know what kundalini is then it has merit to at least study the original tradition that word originated from.) The original intent of the practice of Kundalini yoga in East Indian mysticism was to expand the "self" through identification with a deity. Then the Kundalini or "self maker" has a vessel through which to expand the personality and consciousness of the individual.

 

Traditionally the arising of Kundalini was intended to be done through worship of a deity. Tantra consists of Meditation, Pranayama (qigong), Yantra (using mandalas/ sacred symbols) and Mantra. Mantras create the deity within the body. Yantras align the brainwaves to vibrate in accordance with a deity that creates a replica of the deity in the sadakh's body, allowing the kundalini or "divine self" of the individual to conform to the deity in question.

 

When Kundalini is awoken by trauma, fear accident or by energy techniques WITHOUT using a diety or proper tantra (technique) to contain the power, then you run the risk of blowing out emotional and nervous system circuits. You also run the risk of creating a monster within yourself because the personality created by the kundalini has no boundaries. Kundalini is shakti and needs a shiva to identify with. Shiva is the definition created by the deity in question. Shakti is the power of the Divine self. If the shakti has no shiva, then it is pure chaos. If the Shiva has no shakti, then it is only a shava (corpse). The deity becomes the vessel to contain the kundalini and then the kundalini takes on the personality of the deity. Can you imagine having a deity at your command. That is what proper kundalini yoga can do.

 

Kundalini syndrome as many may know can be blissful or can be chaotic and frightening. Why? because the kundalini in these cases has no boundaries and the personality of the individual in question has not aligned their human personality with the kundalini. So, the divine self within does not know who or what it is and has no vessel to contain the power. So the energy runs rampant and can cause all kinds of problems. Even if the person experiences bliss, it is still chaotic and can destroy their lives. Kundalini is no joke and should not be messed with without guidance and proper technique.

 

The tantric yogis knew what they were doing when they devised their tantras (techniques).

 

IMO, better to leave kundalini alone than to awaken Her without knowledge. Many who have done so without knowledge wish they had not...

 

For those already with kundalini syndrome, seek out a deity and ask the deity to control the shakti for you...

 

(edit) BTW, when kundalini is awakened in a controlled manner through proper tantra, then there is no crazy side effects. There is often no physical sensations at all, because kundalini is aroused into the deity formed within the individual. It is just an orderly expansion of the divine self. any mind expansion is able to be understood by the individual. Instead of craziness, you have simply an orderly expansion of knowledge and consciousness...

 

Very interesting. However, if you do something like Vipassana or Zen it also awakens, and in Tibetan Buddhims which often use deity yoga you don`t have to use deity yoga, it is just a frequently used option. So even though the name kundalini comes from a tantric tradition which uses these techniques there are other traditions, buddhist, Sufi, Bushmen etc., that have their own names for it and use other techniques for it so I don`t see any reason why one would have to use these particular tantric techniques to work with it if it arises altough I am sure it is one very good option.

[Vajrahridaya]

Very interesting. However, if you do something like Vipassana or Zen it also awakens, and in Tibetan Buddhims which often use deity yoga you don`t have to use deity yoga, it is just a frequently used option. So even though the name kundalini comes from a tantric tradition which uses these techniques there are other traditions, buddhist, Sufi, Bushmen etc., that have their own names for it and use other techniques for it so I don`t see any reason why one would have to use these particular tantric techniques to work with it if it arises altough I am sure it is one very good option.

 

Are Bushmen techniques codified and available to the general public? I know they call it Na-kh-ung (the kh being the snapping sound) and they use a dancing fire ceremony in order to raise the energy and commune with the "gods" and "nature" spirits. I don't think they have the phenomena down to such a science that can be utilized for full and total liberation and omniscience? Then again, maybe they do in secret. But maybe they don't have as much clarity about the phenomena as some other more Eastern traditions?

[fiveelementtao]

in Tibetan Buddhims which often use deity yoga you don`t have to use deity yoga, it is just a frequently used option. So even though the name kundalini comes from a tantric tradition which uses these techniques there are other traditions, buddhist, Sufi, Bushmen etc., that have their own names for it and use other techniques for it so I don`t see any reason why one would have to use these particular tantric techniques to work with it if it arises altough I am sure it is one very good option.

I am not trying to say this is the only way kundalini is raised. My point is (and your examples point this out) that kundalini needs a framework from within which to work. Otherwise it is chaotic.

 

Zen is not primarily concerned with kundalini. She is raised very often as a side effect of zen practices. But it is not the sole focus. Also the Chan school of buddhism from which Zen came from had to seek out Taoist practices to help with unintended kundalini sickness. This is how the Shao Lin arts were born. They like to ascribe it to Da Mo, but Shao Lin qigong was taken from Taoist qigong to alleviate accidental kundalini syndrome. Shao lin qigong has no similarity to anything buddhist. It is Taoist. Buddhism itself especially Tibetan buddhism has its roots in Tantric hinduism. Most of the tibetan "buddhas" are actually hindu deities and still have the original hindu names. Tara is one example. She is a tantric hindu deity... Buddhism itself was originally a sect of hinduism. So to say that buddhists also raise kundalini is correct... because they are still operating from withing a generally hindu view of the Universe... in the case of the Chan school. They had to use Taoist methods to control the kundalini.

 

In terms of Bushmen... I do not know their practices, so I am not convinced that their energy is kundalini. This is another danger of ascribing the word "Kundalini" to any energy practice or side effect. Kundalini is a very specific word with a specific meaning. In order to understand what the word means, it needs to be studied in its' original context. Then one can knowledgably apply that word to another practice. But many are throwing this word around and applying it to any energy practice or experience without complete knowledge. And this is why even on this board there are people who call Kundalini and Chi the same thing. Or call kundalini a "certain type of Chi. This is inaccurate in the context of the original meaning of the word.

 

 

In the case of Buddhism, the Buddhists are using the idea of the Buddha as the diety. It serves the same function as tantric hinduism. So, the Buddha is the vessel through which the kundalini arises.

 

(they) have their own names for it

 

This is the problem... One can ascribe any meaning they want to any word. But at that point are we still talking about the same thing? And if we are ascribing meaning to an experience that also does not teach us necessarily what the experience means or what the purpose of it is...

 

I am concerned that when a question about how to raise kundalini is asked, one of the answers given is that it is raised through fear or traumatic accident... That concerns me greatly... That is not how the question would be answered by those who invented the word... They would answer these questions with methods that raise the kundalini safely.

Edited June 6, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Vajrahridaya]

Most of the tibetan "buddhas" are actually hindu deities and still have the original hindu names. Tara is one example. She is a tantric hindu deity... Buddhism itself was originally a sect of hinduism.

 

This is not completely true. Taras do have slight mention in Vedic hymns. But, the oldest Tantric texts are actually Buddhist as far as what we have available to this date.

 

This propaganda of Tantra having a Hindu origin only came about after Hinduism took over India again 1,000 years ago. When Tantra first evolved, it was during a time when Buddhism was the main religion all over India, during the time of the school of Nalanda 400's C.E until 1197 C.E. considered one of the first great universities and it specialized in Buddhism but taught everything. Even the first codified Yogic postures are from Buddhist origin even before the Hathayogapradipika of Hindu origin the first Buddhist Yantra Yoga (physical movements not in reference to looking at geometrical shapes) texts had been codified and written down. The deities go back and forth, both Shaiva and Vajra Tantra use Bhairava, but many of the deities are Buddhist in origin, while others are Hindu in origin. These deities are really just Sanskrit words personified, like the word for "auspicious" is "shiva" and the word for "awake" is "buddha" and the word for "stoppage" is "samvara" and "wheel" is "chakra" and thus we have the Buddhist Tantric deity, "chakrasamvara" which is just a personification of "stopping the wheel" in reference to Samsara. So this happened all through every sect, Jain, Shaivite, Vaishnavite, Buddhist, etc.

 

It is most likely that all Tantric traditions, including Shaivia, Shakta, Vaishnava, Jain, and Buddhist Tantra evolved simultaneously, though it is more likely that Buddhist Tantra is earlier simply due to the vast proliferation of Buddhism throughout India as well as it's vastly larger source of scripture and codified practices still available to this day preserved in Nepal, Ladakh, Bhutan and Tibet, China, Taiwan, Japan and I've heard some in South India as well? We don't really have any way of anthropologically testing this theory to absolute certainty. Even though, as far as texts go and temples with Tantric deities, Buddhist is earlier in India than Hindu. Shaivism, being the earliest form of Hindu Tantric sects has a text called the Shvetashvatara Upanishad from around the 400's to 200's B.C. which is also quoted by other sects of Hinduism including Vaishnavism. But, it's still considered a systemized Shaivite text that pre-dates the Shaiva Agamas because it calls Brahman by names like Shiva and Rudra. But, this is ALL post Buddha, even Samkhya with the Samkhya Karika as well as the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali is obviously Buddhist influenced even though the Buddha did practice Shramana forrest traditions pryer to his final illumination, nothing was codified and written, so we just don't know.

 

So, like I said before, it is more than likely that both Hindu Tantra and Buddhist Tantra evolved simultaneously, both influencing each other in friendly and dialectic manors as was Vaishnava, Jain, Sufi which has tantric forms in India, Sikh, Shakta (goddess cults), etc. They all grew up during a time of incredible spiritual churning in India. But, Buddhism was the most prominent by a huge amount in India during this time, and we have Tantric texts of Indian Buddhist origin translated and preserved in China and Japan in their local languages.

 

Also, because all the names of deities are just personifications of Sanskrit words... I think everyone just got into the mix of making Tantric deities out of important words and key concepts in order to create practice techniques to manifest these concepts in a persons life. By Worshiping Shiva you are worshiping the word "Auspicious" and making a person out of it, a personable impression in the mind of being "auspicious." It's the same with "Buddha" which means, "Awake." But, he was an actual person that lived and breathed on this Earth. Who knows, maybe plenty of the old Hindu deities were as well, long before they were mentioned in Vedic Hymns? We just don't know, unless you've learned to master time travel?

Edited June 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Birch]

Kundalini is the "Ahamkara" according to Tantric hindu yogis. Ahamkara means the " 'I am' Maker". This means that Kundalini is the creator of the divine "self" within the individual. (Remember that Kundalini is a sanskrit word originated by hindu yogis. IMO, if one truly wants to know what kundalini is then it has merit to at least study the original tradition that word originated from.) The original intent of the practice of Kundalini yoga in East Indian mysticism was to expand the "self" through identification with a deity. Then the Kundalini or "self maker" has a vessel through which to expand the personality and consciousness of the individual.

 

Traditionally the arising of Kundalini was intended to be done through worship of a deity. Tantra consists of Meditation, Pranayama (qigong), Yantra (using mandalas/ sacred symbols) and Mantra. Mantras create the deity within the body. Yantras align the brainwaves to vibrate in accordance with a deity that creates a replica of the deity in the sadakh's body, allowing the kundalini or "divine self" of the individual to conform to the deity in question.

 

When Kundalini is awoken by trauma, fear accident or by energy techniques WITHOUT using a diety or proper tantra (technique) to contain the power, then you run the risk of blowing out emotional and nervous system circuits. You also run the risk of creating a monster within yourself because the personality created by the kundalini has no boundaries. Kundalini is shakti and needs a shiva to identify with. Shiva is the definition created by the deity in question. Shakti is the power of the Divine self. If the shakti has no shiva, then it is pure chaos. If the Shiva has no shakti, then it is only a shava (corpse). The deity becomes the vessel to contain the kundalini and then the kundalini takes on the personality of the deity. Can you imagine having a deity at your command. That is what proper kundalini yoga can do.

 

Kundalini syndrome as many may know can be blissful or can be chaotic and frightening. Why? because the kundalini in these cases has no boundaries and the personality of the individual in question has not aligned their human personality with the kundalini. So, the divine self within does not know who or what it is and has no vessel to contain the power. So the energy runs rampant and can cause all kinds of problems. Even if the person experiences bliss, it is still chaotic and can destroy their lives. Kundalini is no joke and should not be messed with without guidance and proper technique.

 

The tantric yogis knew what they were doing when they devised their tantras (techniques).

 

IMO, better to leave kundalini alone than to awaken Her without knowledge. Many who have done so without knowledge wish they had not...

 

For those already with kundalini syndrome, seek out a deity and ask the deity to control the shakti for you...

 

(edit) BTW, when kundalini is awakened in a controlled manner through proper tantra, then there is no crazy side effects. There is often no physical sensations at all, because kundalini is aroused into the deity formed within the individual. It is just an orderly expansion of the divine self. any mind expansion is able to be understood by the individual. Instead of craziness, you have simply an orderly expansion of knowledge and consciousness...

 

Thanks for this 5ET. It was very interesting.

 

Here's my take. What if you don't want to be a vessel for a deity? I guess it's just a different kind of conditioning? And I won't get into prayer to disembodied distant gods...Sure, look at some qualities you desire for yourself - or that circumstances in the world (your life) point out to you that it might be a good idea to think/do something about, and then do the remodelling work but why buy into a prefab?? And I don't believe for a second you'd have a deity "at your disposal". If that's the case, then you already have yourself at your disposal.

 

What if you just want to draw out new territory? In fact as far as I can tell, K is as much about what you do with it as what you don't. Like life. In addition to that, IMO (and I'd say I'd figured this one out through something like experience, but I could be wrong) shiva and shakti are expressions of the same 'thing'. Not two. Embodiment does that for you. It's also a reason why practices that include and do not deny the body are IMO/IME essential. I'd go and use my condensed-milk analogy again but it's not complicated enough to sell on TTB's

Edited June 6, 2011 by -K-

[Vajrahridaya]

Here's my take. What if you don't want to be a vessel for a deity?

 

That's not the point of Tantra.

 

The point is to be an open vessel for ones own enlightened nature. The deities are just personifications of ones own potential that one uses as a focus or meditation technique. You're not actually going to be channeling a living being into your body other than yourself, unless that's your particular practice, but that has to do more with Divination than Tantra.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Birch]

That's not the point of Tantra.

 

The point is to be an open vessel for ones own enlightened nature. The deities are just personifications of ones own potential that one uses as a focus or meditation technique. You're not actually going to be channeling a living being into your body other than yourself, unless that's your particular practice, but that has to do more with Divination than Tantra.

 

Ok. Thanks!

[fiveelementtao]

Well, vaj, I didn't read your whole post because I really don't want to get into a huge debate... This is my understanding based on my studies. Your sources may differ but, IME, the buddhists, IME tend to be historical revisionists because there is also a spiritual agenda on the part of the buddhists to "buddhicize" everything and be superior to hindus... So, I tend to take buddhist sources with a grain of salt...

 

K- I'm simply sharing the tantric viewpoint as I understand it.

Edited June 6, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Vajrahridaya]

Well, vaj, I didn't read your whole post because I really don't want to get into a huge debate... This is my understanding based on my studies. Your sources may differ but, IME, the buddhists, IME tend to be historical revisionists because there is also a spiritual agenda on the part of the buddhists to "buddhicize" everything and be superior to hindus... So, I tend to take buddhist sources with a grain of salt...

 

K- I'm simply sharing the tantric viewpoint as I understand it.

 

That's silly, you should have read the whole post. What you say about Buddhists, is actually the Hindu agenda, as Hinduism only took over India once again about 1,000 years ago after Islam sacked the university of Nalanda, pryer to that, India was a Buddhist country for well over 1,300 years.

 

So, I think you have your assumption backwards based upon erroneous scholarship. It's not a debate I was inciting, but an actual contemplation of facts. I used to believe as you did, then I got a deeper education on the history of India. It's the Hindus with their Subjective Monistic Idealism that like to Hinduize everything, turning the Buddha into an emanation of Vishnu and such things as that. Saying that Tantra is an emanation of the Shaivite tradition which had no real tradition until after Buddhism.

 

Really... you should read my post, it's not really an argument, it's a statement of verifiable facts. Also, the point of my post is not really to state which sect first introduced Tantricism to any of the Indian traditions, but that they most likely all grew up through cross influence without any verifiable origin, I just state that it was all simultaneous. But, the Buddhists codified it as the vehicle of Vajrayana first, that is a verifiable fact.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Vajrahridaya