Why the authoritarian and secret clubs will fail

[goldisheavy]

Here's why authoritarians fail every time:

 

Authoritarians view their subjects as fundamentally less capable and the subjects themselves buy into this view as well. At the same time, authoritarians provide people with erroneous teachings left and right simply thanks to the reliably fallible nature of human beings.

 

When a non-authoritarian provides faulty teachings, it's easy to make corrections. Not so when faulty teachings are provided in an authoritarian social context.

 

This is the mode of failure with regard to authoritarian tendencies.

 

The reason authoritarians fail is because ultimately all people are equally capable and all people are also equally fallible. So authoritarianism is always built on top of a lie and a delusion.

 

Now let's tackle the secret clubs.

 

When people come together and start openly sharing information, opinion and experiences, the people who belong to the secret clubs feel left out. Why? Because it's often the case that to preserve the secrecy of the club, such people are required to take a vow of silence regarding things like teachings and personal experiences.

 

So just imagine what happens. A bunch of people get together and start to have an engaging and animating discussion involving open sharing. The secret club participant wants to join in, but can't. So what will such person do?

 

Well, first there is going to be jealousy and envy. The person will be jealous for attention because all the participants in the free exchange receive a share of attention. The secret club member doesn't receive this attention and thus becomes jealous. There is also envy, because the person from the secret club will be envious of the freedom displayed by the free and uninhibited people.

 

So what does the person from the secret club do?

 

Well there are two approaches, often undertaken sequentially:

 

1. Try to disempower and delegitimize the free and open discussion. This is done by attempting to delegitimize individual posts, or the people who post them. At the same time a stream of disempowering messages comes out. These disempowering messages have one purpose: make people doubt their own abilities.

 

2. "Invite" people into your secret club. This way you hope to privatize the free and open exchange of information by channeling and constraining the discussion to occur solely within the secret club's conversational space. These "invitations" may sound sincere, especially if the person goes easy on using tactic #1, or they may sound hollow, if the person first attempts to delegitimize your writing, attempts to disempower you, and then "kindly" follows up with a suggestion to join the secret club as a remedy. This is very similar to how mafia goes around offering protection. Protection from what? Well, mostly protection from themselves, as it turns out.

 

"We'll empower you and legitimize you but only if you join our secret club and throw your power behind our Guru/Dear Leader." Yes, that's the spiritual equivalent of mafia racket. Make no mistake.

 

Now that you know how this works and why it works this way, please be careful people and don't be a victim!

 

Make no mistake: secret clubs are not sustainable over the long term. They'll be more and more marginalized as people become more and more aware and enthusiastic about true wisdom.

 

Be strong in freedom.

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[C T]

Now that you have so succinctly 'sold' the context of your proposal, it would be great to follow up with a substantial body of information on how you plan to empower people to become more free. I mean this sincerely.

 

Is there a structure to this? The peripheral concept sounds absolutely fine, so a process that leads on from here to the core principles of your proposal would be greatly appreciated. If you may, a structure perhaps?

 

Or are people expect to work this out themselves? I may be wrong, but i have formed the opinion, perhaps erroneously, that you are not too keen on any form of structure since structure is just another word for ritual.

 

I think its a wonderful ideal that is being offered here, and it would be even more helpful if you present not only the essence but the actual pragmatic approaches that we, whom you deem are being misled and disempowered by authoritarian propaganda, can have something to chew on.

 

More power to freedom from authority! Be gone, ye ghouls of secrecy!

 

Now teach us...empower the weak.

[goldisheavy]

Now that you have so succinctly 'sold' the context of your proposal, it would be great to follow up with a substantial body of information on how you plan to empower people to become more free. I mean this sincerely.

 

Yes. First of all, people already have real power. The reason people get disempowered is because they are swimming in countless disempowering suggestions. So the way to counteract this is to provide many empowering suggestions. Remember, we don't have to actually give or transfer the power to the people. They already have it. It's just a battle of suggestions.

 

Is there a structure to this?

 

No, because all structures have exploitable weaknesses.

 

The peripheral concept sounds absolutely fine, so a process that leads on from here to the core principles of your proposal would be greatly appreciated. If you may, a structure perhaps?

 

There is no structure, but it works this way: one person at a time, two people at a time, peer to peer. Think of it like a virus. The virus is powered by ignorance. As long as the ignorance exists, the virus of wisdom is going to spread. Once ignorance is exhausted, the virus of wisdom is going to die with it.

 

Or are people expect to work this out themselves?

 

Well, in some ways yes, obviously! But people don't have to work it out completely by themselves. People can have friends. Some friends can be wiser than others. Everyone doesn't have to be completely equal, but there should be no dominance and no submission. So for example, let's say I just started lifting weights and someone is able to lift 600 lbs in a deadlift. I don't prostrate and I don't start worshiping the ground this person walks on. Instead, I learn from this 600 lbs deadlift person in a positive way, in an atmosphere of friendship and mutual support.

 

I may be wrong, but i have formed the opinion, perhaps erroneously, that you are not too keen on any form of structure since structure is just another word for ritual.

 

Well, I don't have the same animosity toward rituals as I do toward dogma. I think some rituals may be OK if they are offered as options or alternatives and not as "Do this, cause I said so." kind of thing.

 

I think its a wonderful ideal that is being offered here, and it would be even more helpful if you present not only the essence but the actual pragmatic approaches that we, whom you deem are being misled and disempowered by authoritarian propaganda, can have something to chew on.

 

Well, yes, but remember the other half of my message is that you are not as powerless or as helpless as the propaganda makes it sound!

 

More power to freedom from authority! Be gone, ye ghouls of secrecy!

 

Now teach us...empower the weak.

 

Let's start by having occasional doubts in our own weakness.

 

The propagandists want us to have doubts in our own strength and capability. Let's simply turn this process on its head. Have doubts in your weakness and doubts in your incapacity.

 

And remember to have some fun with it too. This space is your space. You can build here as much as I can. Welcome! I will be glad to become the space where you can build things. Make all of us wise and strong CowTao and I will willingly become the substance from which you can make things!

 

After all, this is simply the spirit of Mahayana.

[C T]

Yes. First of all, people already have real power. The reason people get disempowered is because they are swimming in countless disempowering suggestions. So the way to counteract this is to provide many empowering suggestions. Remember, we don't have to actually give or transfer the power to the people. They already have it. It's just a battle of suggestions.

 

 

 

No, because all structures have exploitable weaknesses.

 

 

 

There is no structure, but it works this way: one person at a time, two people at a time, peer to peer. Think of it like a virus. The virus is powered by ignorance. As long as the ignorance exists, the virus of wisdom is going to spread. Once ignorance is exhausted, the virus of wisdom is going to die with it.

 

 

 

Well, in some ways yes, obviously! But people don't have to work it out completely by themselves. People can have friends. Some friends can be wiser than others. Everyone doesn't have to be completely equal, but there should be no dominance and no submission. So for example, let's say I just started lifting weights and someone is able to lift 600 lbs in a deadlift. I don't prostrate and I don't start worshiping the ground this person walks on. Instead, I learn from this 600 lbs deadlift person in a positive way, in an atmosphere of friendship and mutual support.

 

 

 

Well, I don't have the same animosity toward rituals as I do toward dogma. I think some rituals may be OK if they are offered as options or alternatives and not as "Do this, cause I said so." kind of thing.

 

 

 

Well, yes, but remember the other half of my message is that you are not as powerless or as helpless as the propaganda makes it sound!

 

 

 

Let's start by having occasional doubts in our own weakness.

 

The propagandists want us to have doubts in our own strength and capability. Let's simply turn this process on its head. Have doubts in your weakness and doubts in your incapacity.

 

And remember to have some fun with it too. This space is your space. You can build here as much as I can. Welcome! I will be glad to become the space where you can build things. Make all of us wise and strong CowTao and I will willingly become the substance from which you can make things!

 

After all, this is simply the spirit of Mahayana.

 

I like where this is going.

 

I am all for the 'the power is already within each being' ideal, GiH. There is no arguing this. People disempower themselves by setting up all kinds of self-imposed limitations which is exactly fodder to further the exploitative pursuits of disingenuous gurus and self-help teachers, numbers of which are growing in direct relation and equation to demands. The world is lost, and out of this immense feeling of mass dissatisfaction and emptiness comes the gravy train chock-full of those who say 'you can do it - but not without me...' experts.

 

But the truth, i believe, is that the world is not lost. Just that more individuals are now becoming aware that there is a limit to what satisfies on the material plane. Because people do not see this realistically, the intrinsic need for drama forces these individuals to covet attention to their new-found awareness gnawing at their insides, and so the boom goes BOOM - a whole new spiritual industry is created to cater for this demand. This is the big picture, even bigger than what you think is a fundamental problem, that of authoritarian and secretive sects. Why do i say the bigger picture? Because, as i have mentioned in the other thread, everything is a symbiotic process, and spiritual work is no exception. The exploitative tendencies become fed both ways, and the blame goes both ways. People need to see this, and address the issue by first accepting that they are empowered. But this empowerment, like someone says, "Oh! Dont worry... you are all buddhas, all awakened already...", only works when people do not form the assumption, or cling to one, that practice can be put aside, and nothing needs to be done. This is quite common among western dippytoe practitioners, and this is why the gravy train keeps chugging along.... people cannot find the time nor the dedication to self-inquire, like the level that you have, and so they shop and shop and shop, for the next guru, the next great revelation, the next retreat, the next tao master and so on and so forth. You get the drift.

 

I too was part of this exodus of people who became enamored with guru-seeking and worship. Many years i have spent, not to mention money and other sacrifices along the way. So i have observed and partook of this phenomena first hand. Its all down to gullibility, and the obsessive need to feel belonged. This is a very basic behavior that takes a lot of honest appraisal in order for the neurosis to be addressed. Its not as simple as telling people that they have the power already. If the switch cannot be found, all the power is useless. Well, not exactly useless, but lacks the potential for fulfillment, would be a better way to say it.

 

And as an entree, to doubt one's own weakness is a good way to go, as you have suggested. Investigation is paramount. But we cannot deny people the right to choose how they want to initiate this process of investigation. Some like to do it within a laissez-faire environment, which is fine, but there are those who prefer to avail of structured environments where they, due to their own mature outlook and stable assessment, have found that they provide a nurturing space in which to learn and to grow. This is not so bad. If such a space happens to have a leader, and this person turns out to be a well-intentioned, non-exploitative individual, then it becomes a fertile ground for initial trust and subsequent devotion to manifest and to grow.

 

It is not very responsible, in my opinion, to simply open an umbrella and say that the whole system, be it from any tradition, is faulty because as individuals we too have a responsibility towards the direction in which the system take. I would think we are not apart from the whole - even by rejection, either thru rational analysis, or thru more radical actions, contributions take place, either by the way we think, our attitudes, which can only take us that far, or by the decisions we make based on these thoughts, which then expands the responsibility even more. It all comes down to how accountable we want to be, and learn in the process how not to project a lack of this same accountability outwards to a third party, to hold them responsible for our failings.

 

 

Sorry for the long reply. Just needed to air some thoughts.

[Marblehead]

This is a timely topic for me because just last night I watched the movie "The Majestic" with Jim Carrey.

 

The movie was about the attempt by the US Government to purge America of Communists. What an ugly arrair that was. The leaders trying to force the American people to believe only what it wanted the people to believe.

 

I totally agree. We people of the world have the mental capacity (in the most part) to think for ourselves. We don't need leaders telling us what we are supposed to thing.

 

I relate this to the concept of free will. We have the choice as to whether we want to be told what to believe or if we prefer to think for ourselves.

[goldisheavy]

I like where this is going.

 

I read your whole post, and I heard your roar, thunder and earthquakes! This is great!

 

I am all for the 'the power is already within each being' ideal, GiH. There is no arguing this. People disempower themselves by setting up all kinds of self-imposed limitations which is exactly fodder to further the exploitative pursuits of disingenuous gurus and self-help teachers, numbers of which are growing in direct relation and equation to demands. The world is lost, and out of this immense feeling of mass dissatisfaction and emptiness comes the gravy train chock-full of those who say 'you can do it - but not without me...' experts.

 

It should be obvious by now that I see it the same way you describe here.

 

But the truth, i believe, is that the world is not lost. Just that more individuals are now becoming aware that there is a limit to what satisfies on the material plane. Because people do not see this realistically, the intrinsic need for drama forces these individuals to covet attention to their new-found awareness gnawing at their insides, and so the boom goes BOOM - a whole new spiritual industry is created to cater for this demand. This is the big picture, even bigger than what you think is a fundamental problem, that of authoritarian and secretive sects. Why do i say the bigger picture? Because, as i have mentioned in the other thread, everything is a symbiotic process, and spiritual work is no exception. The exploitative tendencies become fed both ways, and the blame goes both ways. People need to see this, and address the issue by first accepting that they are empowered. But this empowerment, like someone says, "Oh! Dont worry... you are all buddhas, all awakened already...", only works when people do not form the assumption, or cling to one, that practice can be put aside, and nothing needs to be done. This is quite common among western dippytoe practitioners, and this is why the gravy train keeps chugging along.... people cannot find the time nor the dedication to self-inquire, like the level that you have, and so they shop and shop and shop, for the next guru, the next great revelation, the next retreat, the next tao master and so on and so forth. You get the drift.

 

I agree with you 100%. So what are some of the solutions to this? Let's think this over.

 

First, let's say this should be a voluntary process. This means I assume people actually want to get wiser, more effective and more fulfilled, which I believe leads to kindness. So, to the extent some people are genuinely happy with status quo, we will not bash them on the head.

 

This still leaves us with a lot of people who do want to grow spiritually but who are afraid and stuck. These people will naturally seek out some help. Some of that help will be in the form of books and general information gathering. Some of it will be in the form of Gurus. And some of it will also be in the form of peer groups. All these people will engage in some level of personal practice. Let's keep in mind that even just reading a book, even hearing a few stanzas of a text like Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra has immeasurable benefits. That's not to say this text is special in some absolutely exclusive way, but I am saying that the hearing phase of the practice is crucial.

 

So right away, a lot of the people will be redeemed by this. We will no longer see them as useless hobbyists, but as worthy aspirants.

 

So let's decide not to denigrate people who engage in the hearing phase. We will not say things like "Oh, you're all talk and no action... you don't have real experience, meh." Let's not talk like that. Even if the person shows interest and reads anything that inclines toward wisdom, let's consider that serious practice, and let's start respecting this.

 

Therefore let us cease constantly bombarding people with disempowering messages like "You're just at the intellectual level... it's all worthless unless you do what I do, because I have real experience, I am not just intellectualizing about it, etc."

 

I believe this is a reasonable approach. If you agree with me, then let us vow something like this: "I will not denigrate the hearing phase of the path." This is not a secret vow. We are OK to share this with others and without bashing anyone over the head, we can invite whoever thinks it's reasonable, to also vow this as a training vow. If a number of people vow this, the atmosphere will become friendlier.

 

Second issue. Second issue is that there is a fear or concern that many people will proclaim themselves to be enlightened. Personally I think this is wonderful! Why? Because regardless of whether or not people are actually enlightened, if many people claim to be enlightened, then it will drain all specialness from the title itself. We don't want people to think that status is something they need to acquire. We want people to know the difference between status, which is useless, and true joy.

 

I believe the depth of wisdom is a reward in and of itself, and if we try to force or push people toward it, we will only cheapen it. So when people take the dippytoe approach, we are not to denigrate or look down on those people, because if we do, it means we have doubts that where we are at is worthwhile. (We want those people to dip deeper than toes with us, because without them we feel alone and scared and perhaps stupid... and if they would only dip together with us, we would be validated and supported).

 

So we have nothing to fear from false titles or the dippytoe people. In fact, those people are friends. Those people will eventually be the ones who will overturn the vertical hierarchies. Even in their unwitting phase they are helpful to our cause.

 

We will know who is worth what not by titles or claims, but by engaging in debates, and if it gets to that level, then also in tests of siddhis.

 

I too was part of this exodus of people who became enamored with guru-seeking and worship. Many years i have spent, not to mention money and other sacrifices along the way. So i have observed and partook of this phenomena first hand. Its all down to gullibility, and the obsessive need to feel belonged. This is a very basic behavior that takes a lot of honest appraisal in order for the neurosis to be addressed. Its not as simple as telling people that they have the power already. If the switch cannot be found, all the power is useless. Well, not exactly useless, but lacks the potential for fulfillment, would be a better way to say it.

 

I agree. Our job is not to force our way on everyone.

 

Our job is to create a community of like-minded individuals and to psychicly protect that community from the overbearing Gurus and dom/sub addicts.

 

We will not abolish all the old methods and Gurus overnight. Instead we will slowly become more numerous and our communal way more popular. We will be in ascendancy over a period of time and Guruism will be in descendancy.

 

Our job is not so much to attack Gurus per se, but to protect our community of peers, which at first may be a bit fragile. So we can engage in debate and purposefully disempower and magically subjugate all the maras who try to attack our community, but beyond that, we can just be content. In other words, I am not going to leave my house and start hunting the Gurus. Instead when someone attacks our way of life, our community, and so forth, we will immediately neuter all such attacks by questioning them, challenging them and finally disempowering them. Eventually all the Gurus and those sick with Guru-itis will realize it's better to just go somewhere where people are less healthy, where they have fresh meat to prey on.

 

Think of it this way. It's exactly how Linux is gaining strength. Linux gains strength from within. It doesn't do so by bashing Microsoft. At the same time, if someone showed up on a Linux forum and started bashing Linux and saying "until you start using Microsoft you are worthless," such talk would face fierce opprobrium from the Linux community. We should behave likewise.

 

So our main goal really is to be the enablers of the peer-to-peer method of spiritual growth. We should only disempower and magically subjugate all the maras to the extent they get in our way, but we should not seek them out. Ultimately if people are not attracted to us voluntarily thanks to some measure of our communal wisdom, we have nothing, and there is no point to the whole exercise. So we should keep that in mind when we control the mara infestations and so we shouldn't become obsessed with controlling the maras. We should be obsessed with constantly empowering each other and helping each other grow.

 

And as an entree, to doubt one's own weakness is a good way to go, as you have suggested. Investigation is paramount. But we cannot deny people the right to choose how they want to initiate this process of investigation.

 

I agree.

 

Some like to do it within a laissez-faire environment, which is fine, but there are those who prefer to avail of structured environments where they, due to their own mature outlook and stable assessment, have found that they provide a nurturing space in which to learn and to grow. This is not so bad.

 

I agree again.

 

If such a space happens to have a leader, and this person turns out to be a well-intentioned, non-exploitative individual, then it becomes a fertile ground for initial trust and subsequent devotion to manifest and to grow.

 

It is not very responsible, in my opinion, to simply open an umbrella and say that the whole system, be it from any tradition, is faulty because as individuals we too have a responsibility towards the direction in which the system take. I would think we are not apart from the whole - even by rejection, either thru rational analysis, or thru more radical actions, contributions take place, either by the way we think, our attitudes, which can only take us that far, or by the decisions we make based on these thoughts, which then expands the responsibility even more. It all comes down to how accountable we want to be, and learn in the process how not to project a lack of this same accountability outwards to a third party, to hold them responsible for our failings.

 

Well said. I don't anticipate perfection among us. I just think we can do it. We can help each other out.

 

Sorry for the long reply. Just needed to air some thoughts.

 

Oh, no, it was great! Thank you for your long reply.

Edited June 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[三江源]

Hi,just want to respond to this point made by GIH

 

 

When people come together and start openly sharing information, opinion and experiences, the people who belong to the secret clubs feel left out. .............So just imagine what happens. A bunch of people get together and start to have an engaging and animating discussion involving open sharing. The secret club participant wants to join in, but can't. So what will such person do?

 

The assumption here to me is erroneous. A secret club participant is just as likely to have no interest in discussions that are not of the same calibre and content as what is secret, and may just as well have no desire to 'join in'.

 

For example,there are so many people on this board who speak privately, if not 'secretly' because they do not wish to share outside their inner circle. This is very, very common.

 

"secret" gives benefit of 'discreet' and creates boundaried community ie an alchemical vessel.

 

Well, first there is going to be jealousy and envy. The person will be jealous for attention because all the participants in the free exchange receive a share of attention. The secret club member doesn't receive this attention and thus becomes jealous. There is also envy, because the person from the secret club will be envious of the freedom displayed by the free and uninhibited people.

 

The assumptions in this theory seem to me to include (i) that the theoretical secret club member wants (needs?) attention (ii) that s/he wants it from outside his club, ie is needy in that way and isnt getting his/her recognition needs met within their own club. Not everyone is needy for attention in this way, or needy for attention from those outside their chosen circle.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Admittedly, there are times and places where secrecy was necessary such as the inquisition etc... In this day and age however, secrecy does little more than empower the ego and perpetuate systems that are no longer relevant. I love Dr, Jerry Alan Johnson's anecdote about the taichi instructor asking him to teach the Yang family taichi warmup. Dr. Johnson said he could not, because the instructor was not from his lineage. The instructor turned his back on Dr. Johnson and walked away saying why must all the great things be for the chosen few. Ask yourself what the point of that secrecy was. Would anything but good have come from a free exchange of that knowledge?

[goldisheavy]

Hi,just want to respond to this point made by GIH

 

 

 

The assumption here to me is erroneous. A secret club participant is just as likely to have no interest in discussions that are not of the same calibre and content as what is secret, and may just as well have no desire to 'join in'.

 

For example,there are so many people on this board who speak privately, if not 'secretly' because they do not wish to share outside their inner circle. This is very, very common.

 

"secret" gives benefit of 'discreet' and creates boundaried community ie an alchemical vessel.

 

 

 

The assumptions in this theory seem to me to include (i) that the theoretical secret club member wants (needs?) attention (ii) that s/he wants it from outside his club, ie is needy in that way and isnt getting his/her recognition needs met within their own club. Not everyone is needy for attention in this way, or needy for attention from those outside their chosen circle.

 

Cat, people like those you describe don't create problems on public forums. They are basically invisible and I am happy as long as they continue to be invisible.

 

Enjoy your "high caliber stuff"

[goldisheavy]

Admittedly, there are times and places where secrecy was necessary such as the inquisition etc...

 

Precisely! Secrecy used to have an honest function in the past. And in some places around the globe keeping some things secret or low-key may still be a necessity.

 

In this day and age however, secrecy does little more than empower the ego and perpetuate systems that are no longer relevant. I love Dr, Jerry Alan Johnson's anecdote about the taichi instructor asking him to teach the Yang family taichi warmup. Dr. Johnson said he could not, because the instructor was not from his lineage. The instructor turned his back on Dr. Johnson and walked away saying why must all the great things be for the chosen few. Ask yourself what the point of that secrecy was.

 

I've been asking myself this for a long time now.

 

Would anything but good have come from a free exchange of that knowledge?

 

It will be very good indeed. I am certain of it.

[ralis]

Thanks for starting this very important topic. Later today I will join in.

[三江源]

Cat, people like those you describe don't create problems on public forums. They are basically invisible and I am happy as long as they continue to be invisible.

 

Enjoy your "high caliber stuff"

 

Oh, your generalisations are about secret club members on internet public forums, specifically those who cause problems, only. Okey doke.