Taoism doesn't teach one to transcend death and suffering

[tulku]

Does Taoism teach us to transcend death and suffering? Teach me please. I find Buddhism teaches us to let go of attachments and sufferings and even death but Taoism teaches us to accept and embrace death and suffering as part of life.

[Vajrahridaya]

Does Taoism teach us to transcend death and suffering? Teach me please. I find Buddhism teaches us to let go of attachments and sufferings and even death but Taoism teaches us to accept and embrace death and suffering as part of life.

 

I wouldn't say it's so black and white. Buddhism teaches both, the insight that liberates from the fear of death and suffering and acceptance but not as an excuse to just suffer, but to see through it even while it happens. Buddhism is not a stick your head in the dirt kind of path in it's overall mentality when it comes to pain and suffering.

 

I don't think Taoism is either and I think the goals of Taoism and Buddhism might be quite similar dependent upon who you talk to as true Taoist practitioners also increase joy, decrease psychological suffering and gain insight that helps them through the death process and I've heard even transcend it all together through various rare attainments exemplified by rarified masters of the deeper alchemical systems of Taoism.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Thunder_Gooch]

Does Taoism teach us to transcend death and suffering? Teach me please. I find Buddhism teaches us to let go of attachments and sufferings and even death but Taoism teaches us to accept and embrace death and suffering as part of life.

 

 

The thing about Taoism is that there are so many different schools, philosophies, folk religious tales, magick, that there is no one Taoism or one Taoist line of thought.

 

One Taoist's version of Taoism might be completely alien and unknown to another.

 

A lot of people get hung up on the folk religion aspect, or the philosophical aspect, or the magical aspect, or the mythos or the culture.

 

As for me I am interested in taoist neigong training methods, which actually produce real results that you can observe.

 

Taoist neigong for me deals with my main concern of transcending death and rebirth and suffering. That is the primary goal by ascending from a physical being made of meat that will die, to a physical being made of energy that does not reincarnate.

 

Or at least that's the end goal and hope of my search and practice.

 

So the aspect of Taoism I am interested in addresses my goals more appropriately than Buddhism.

[ChiDragon]

When you combine Taoist with Buddhism, then you are talking about the Taoist religion. In the religion aspect, a Taoist do teaches us to accept death as a natural phenomenon but does not teach suffering as part of life like a Buddhist. A Taoist want to preserve and prolong the life of the body and to live naturally without suffering in life. That is why a Taoist practice Chi Kung and develop medicine to cure the illness for others. I said for others is because a Taoist knows how to preserve his body and hardly get sick. However, they know people do get sick, thus they like to help to cure the people that are sick.

Edited June 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Taoist neigong for me deals with my main concern of transcending death and rebirth and suffering. That is the primary goal by ascending from a physical being made of meat that will die, to a physical being made of energy that does not reincarnate.

 

 

This sounds exactly like the goal of Dzogchen Buddhism.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Like more pie says, your answers will vary from school to school.

 

Bruce Frantzis in "Relaxing into your Being" and "The Great Stillness" talks a bit about the perspectives from his tradition.

 

From my understanding, a good way to summarize his tradition's view would be, yes, ultimately enlightenment, freedom, discarding the chains, blah blah blah, but not at the extent of alienating and wrecking your life, because you ARE a human. You ARE eventually going to die. You DO need to eat. You DO need to sleep. You ARE going to want to have sex at some point.

 

Like all the best like coaches and business people will tell you- have short term, medium, and long term goals. Ultimate goal is enlightenment? Okay, well rent's due tomorrow and you haven't eaten since breakfast. Unless you are going to be enlightened sometime between now and tomorrow, you should have a way of taking care of that.

[alect]

I honestly think that it is incredibly difficult to practice Tao and Buddhism at the same time though I'm sure it's been done.

In the old days, Taoists and Buddhists actually had a little bit of beef.

There's some pokes and Buddhism in some translations of the Tao Te Ching.

[Marblehead]

Buddhism and Taoism were developed for people of different cultures.

 

It should be obvious that Buddhism worked better for the peoples of India and Taoism worked better for the peoples of China (within limits).

 

However, the teachings of both Buddha and Lao Tzu have been modified through the years by various people with the desire to better help the individual.

 

The end goal of both, I think, is to allow the people to live in peace and contentment. Different processes but the same goal.

 

Both point to the acceptance of the eventual death of our physical body. I think both Buddhism and Taoism deal with this very well regardless of the variations of the original philosophies are followed.

 

Of course, I prefer Taoism but that is just me.

[C T]

Does Taoism teach us to transcend death and suffering? Teach me please. I find Buddhism teaches us to let go of attachments and sufferings and even death but Taoism teaches us to accept and embrace death and suffering as part of life.

"The still revolutionary insight of Buddhism is that life and death are in the mind, and nowhere else. Mind is revealed as the universal basis of experience - the creator of happiness and the creator of suffering, the creator of what we call life and what we call death." -- Sogyal Rinpoche

 

Within the flame of one candle lies the potential of birthing an infinite number of other candle flames. Even when the first candle burns out, its essence does not. Never the same flame gets transferred, yet it cannot be said to be a different one.

 

Most of us focus on the flame, which represents an individual life - to make it the brightest flame, the most beautiful, the most cherished, the most healthy, the most happy, the most energetic, etc..... not realizing that the actual ability to transcend both life and death lies in contemplating the phase of transference, and not in the preservation of this flame. This phase is happening right now, in each intermediate bardo of the moment. This is called 'becoming'.

 

In the mere act of contemplation, there is no clinging or rejecting the present moment, just the illuminated, cognizant ebb and flow of all things is seen, transitorily, as empty of permanence.

[doc benway]

In my own experience with Buddhist and Daoists concepts and practices, they are addressing the same issues but from different perspectives. The type of practice you choose will depend on what suits your particular needs and personality. And you may try one for a while and then switch. Many folks do... In fact, that gives me an idea for a thread.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Does Taoism teach us to transcend death and suffering? Teach me please. I find Buddhism teaches us to let go of attachments and sufferings and even death but Taoism teaches us to accept and embrace death and suffering as part of life.

 

Even Buddhism teaches to, in a way, embrace suffering in order to transcend it, and sometimes as a way to erase karmic debt, and to develop compassion for all sentient beings. Renunciation seems to have more importance in Buddhism than in Taoism, and the attitude towards sex is also, perhaps, irreconcilable.

 

The goal of transcending reincarnation in the two may be a bit different. From what I have read, thus far, it seems that the Buddhist goal is to disappear after death. Hopefully someone else can shed some insight on this, but there may also be a view that Buddhas can intervene after death. I'm not totally sure on that one. The Taoist goal seems to be a bit more of taking one's existing spirit and consciousness into the The Great Tao where they may stay at will.

 

Am I way off there?

 

Either way, for myself, I don't see that I will attain either without Renunciation, and so try to apply their teachings to develop wisdom, compassion, serenity, and health in this life, and hopefully to help others do the same whenever appropriate or possible (without assuming that I've attained something I have not, or trying to lead other to believe such things). Maybe next time, or the time after that, or after, after, after, after, after, after, after that

[C T]

Even Buddhism teaches to, in a way, embrace suffering in order to transcend it, and sometimes as a way to erase karmic debt, and to develop compassion for all sentient beings. Renunciation seems to have more importance in Buddhism than in Taoism, and the attitude towards sex is also, perhaps, irreconcilable.

 

The goal of transcending reincarnation in the two may be a bit different. From what I have read, thus far, it seems that the Buddhist goal is to disappear after death. Hopefully someone else can shed some insight on this, but there may also be a view that Buddhas can intervene after death. I'm not totally sure on that one. The Taoist goal seems to be a bit more of taking one's existing spirit and consciousness into the The Great Tao where they may stay at will.

 

Am I way off there?

 

Either way, for myself, I don't see that I will attain either without Renunciation, and so try to apply their teachings to develop wisdom, compassion, serenity, and health in this life, and hopefully to help others do the same whenever appropriate or possible (without assuming that I've attained something I have not, or trying to lead other to believe such things). Maybe next time, or the time after that, or after, after, after, after, after, after, after that

In your personal opinion or experience, how do you see renunciation in relation to what has been said here in your post? I find that there are many different ideas floating around in regards to this concept, and since its not something that is mentioned often, it would be great to hear what your take is, now that you have mentioned it here.

 

I like this quote by S. Suzuki.... "Renunciation is not giving up the things of the world, rather, its accepting that they go away."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

In your personal opinion or experience, how do you see renunciation in relation to what has been said here in your post? I find that there are many different ideas floating around in regards to this concept, and since its not something that is mentioned often, it would be great to hear what your take is, now that you have mentioned it here.

 

I like this quote by S. Suzuki.... "Renunciation is not giving up the things of the world, rather, its accepting that they go away."

 

It states quite unequivocally in Buddhist sutras that one must give up all comforts to reach Nirvana. To live with nothing of your own and give back your example of Attainment in return for your food. Including participation in the economy, worldly social ties, and family. Nobody has to agree with this or believe it or understand it. That's just what it says, and what I have come to believe to be true for myself.

[Vajrahridaya]

It states quite unequivocally in Buddhist sutras that one must give up all comforts to reach Nirvana. To live with nothing of your own and give back your example of Attainment in return for your food. Including participation in the economy, worldly social ties, and family. Nobody has to agree with this or believe it or understand it. That's just what it says, and what I have come to believe to be true for myself.

 

That's not true in some Tantric sutras though. As one has gone through the process of renunciation on an external level and now it's working on an energetic level where one is doing the process of renouncing ignorance and attachment even while engaged with the world.

 

As they say, "Enlightenment in the cave but not in the market, is not true enlightenment."

 

But yes, what you mention is a process that generally every seeker goes through during their lifetime. When a person gets disillusioned by the world of material gain and starts to look for a deeper meaning behind the appearance of things.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[C T]

It states quite unequivocally in Buddhist sutras that one must give up all comforts to reach Nirvana. To live with nothing of your own and give back your example of Attainment in return for your food. Including participation in the economy, worldly social ties, and family. Nobody has to agree with this or believe it or understand it. That's just what it says, and what I have come to believe to be true for myself.

Ah, i see. Many thanks for the reply.

 

There do seem to be quite a variety of views in this regard.

Edited June 6, 2011 by CowTao

[stan herman]

Ah, i see. Many thanks for the reply.

 

There do seem to be quite a variety of views in this regard.

 

Yes indeed--many, many views not only between the traditions, but even within each tradition. If you study them all closely and then try to come to a conclusion through reasoning, the confusion will be frustrating. That's why many people believe they need a guru/teacher to tell them what to believe. But then, eventually you will be pushed down an inappropriate path, or you will discover your teacher's feet of clay. What to do? What to do?

 

Don't worry about it

Edited June 6, 2011 by stan herman

[C T]

Yes indeed--many, many views not only between the traditions, but even within each tradition. If you study them all closely and then try to come to a conclusion through reasoning, the confusion will be frustrating. That's why many people believe they need a guru/teacher to tell them what to believe. But then, eventually you will be pushed down an inappropriate path, or you will discover your teacher's feet of clay. What to do? What to do?

 

Don't worry about it

Absolutely! You are correct.

 

This is why one has to be ready to renounce all conclusions (perhaps?) i would think...

 

If one chooses to remain in contemplation over the import of conclusions, then confusion and the resulting frustrations have less of a chance to arise. What do you think?

[zerostao]

"worldly men cannot transcend the mundane limit in which they have confined themselves;

nor can spiritual devotees, having once renounced the world, deign to come down and

mix themselves in its turmoil. yet men who are wholly engrossed in earthly concerns

stand in definite need of help and guidance from those holy beings who bring light.

so a place there must be where union of these 2 sets is possible"

[C T]

"worldly men cannot transcend the mundane limit in which they have confined themselves;

nor can spiritual devotees, having once renounced the world, deign to come down and

mix themselves in its turmoil. yet men who are wholly engrossed in earthly concerns

stand in definite need of help and guidance from those holy beings who bring light.

so a place there must be where union of these 2 sets is possible"

nice...

 

your own?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

That's not true in some Tantric sutras though. As one has gone through the process of renunciation on an external level and now it's working on an energetic level where one is doing the process of renouncing ignorance and attachment even while engaged with the world.

 

As they say, "Enlightenment in the cave but not in the market, is not true enlightenment."

 

But yes, what you mention is a process that generally every seeker goes through during their lifetime. When a person gets disillusioned by the world of material gain and starts to look for a deeper meaning behind the appearance of things.

 

Walking through the market is different from selling, negotiating, and competing in the market. The responsibilities of this are highly un-conducive to achieving Nirvana. We can still do innumerable wonderful things without Renunciation, but, regardless of how it may make us feel about ourselves, we won't make it to the other shore without the correct vehicle. That's the doctrine that I have chosen to accept.

 

I agree that it is possible for laymen to be able to see through ignorance and live without attachment, but, uncomfortable as it might make people, The Teachings go further than that and are more difficult to adhere to throughout the day, every day, every feeling, every thought, when we have (noble as they may be) "worldly" responsibilities. That doesn't make everyone a bad person, it just means that they are not Buddhas. Just like, I can probably tell you various natural treatments for numerous ailments, that might make me extremely helpful in certain instances, but it doesn't make me a naturopathic doctor.

[zerostao]

nice...

 

your own?

not mine and it is not an exact quote , coz i dont have my little book close by

it is from The Holy Science by Sri Yukteswar Giri

but i think i got it close enough

[stan herman]

Absolutely! You are correct.

 

This is why one has to be ready to renounce all conclusions (perhaps?) i would think...

 

If one chooses to remain in contemplation over the import of conclusions, then confusion and the resulting frustrations have less of a chance to arise. What do you think?

 

 

Right. Here's a thing to consider; one can choose to become immersed in the questions of whether or not to BELIEVE a particular theory or idea (good for some purposes) Or one may suspend (put aside) both belief and disbelief and allow experience to bring its own answer (better for other purposes).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Right. Here's a thing to consider; one can choose to become immersed in the questions of whether or not to BELIEVE a particular theory or idea (good for some purposes) Or one may suspend (put aside) both belief and disbelief and allow experience to bring its own answer (better for other purposes).

 

Agreed. I would add to that, too, that our experience can be made immensely richer through an experienced guide, leading us to the experience or knowledge that we need to experience for ourselves in order to truly understand it.

[Vajrahridaya]

Agreed. I would add to that, too, that our experience can be made immensely richer through an experienced guide, leading us to the experience or knowledge that we need to experience for ourselves in order to truly understand it.

 

Yes, I'm all for being inspired by enlightened predecessors.

[Aaron]

I am of the mind that it comes down to the idea of detachment. Where as Buddhist believe that attachment to things is the root of suffering, Taoists believe that attachment to things eases suffering. A Taoists strives to work in harmony with the world around them and believes that by doing so they ease suffering, for themselves and others. A Buddhist believes that one must detach from the world in order to be free of suffering (but only for themselves).

 

I think that the similarities between the two are striking, but I think much of that has to do with their relationships to Hinduism, rather than the spontaneous understanding of two wise men thousands of miles apart. The early Taoists and Buddhists both were familiar with the various schools of Hinduism, in particular Vedanta and seeing the inherent wisdom within it, accepted what they could and came up with conclusions regarding the rest.

 

In a way, if it wasn't for Hinduism, which many consider the oldest religion in the world, I don't think we would have either Taoism, Buddhism, or many other religions. Honestly, it is a wellspring of wisdom commonly overlooked. I would encourage anyone who follows either to at least take a cursory look, and I'm sure once they do, they will have no problems seeing the similarities.

 

I think it's also important to remember that Buddha and Lao Tzu were just men. I don't think either of them walked on water or performed any kind of miracles, but rather they were ordinary people with extraordinary insight and understanding. The mythos that came after was tied to this idea that man cannot be extraordinary or have any kind of insight that transcends human-being, so they essentially created a mythology that allowed them to accept their teachings as being divine, rather than accept them as being philosophically sound.

 

 

Aaron

Edited June 6, 2011 by Twinner