What seems to be the truth...?

[Riyue]

1. The truth is to be found out what it was.

2. How do we know when does the truth reveal itself...???

3. How can one conclude that was the truth...???

3. How can anyone convince that was the truth to others...???

 

Does anyone know what the truth is...???

 

氣龍

 

Laozi ddj71

 

知上不知

 

Guiding knowledge-

that is knowledge about interaction of heaven and earth influencing everything at earth.

that is knowledge about endless change... about Bu..

sun and moon show it.

--

一陰 一 陽 之謂 道

Once yin (matter... Pol 1 ) once yang (spirit and energy... Pol 2) -

that way world expresses itself

endlessly...

---

意到氣亦到 -和- 一陰一陽之謂道

The place - one is focusing attention - there qi will gathering...

for harmonizing ... cultivation of swinging between yin and yang- is a guiding way

This is the fundamental essence of qigong, taijiquan,

sitting in stillness natural breathing comprehending (氣功 太極拳 靜坐).

-

[manitou]

Ironically, waking up to this and working on my relationship with my kids has not translated too well to my parents.

I don't feel nearly the drive to improve the relationship with my folks that I do with my kids (it's not that bad but could be a lot better).

Similarly, if I didn't take the initiative with my kids, I don't know that they would make the effort...

 

 

Hi Steve - this may not pertain to you, but I need to throw something in. There is liberation in improving the situation with your folks. Real liberation, although you seem to have plenty of it. My example is this: I was brought up really heavy handed by a 6'4" cop with a belt. Almost daily my mother would say 'just you wait until your father gets home', because maybe I talked back to her or something. And very often I would have to pull down my pants, bare my butt, and dad would wail on me with the strap. This started at age 6. THEN he would make me put my arms around him and tell him that I loved him, right after the whipping. I grew up hating this son of a bitch.

 

When I got to the amends part of the 12 steps of recovery, I realized that my biggest liberation was making amends for all the times I flipped him off, I ran away from home, I called him names....Even Though He Started It. This was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do - to make amends to him. But I did it because I wanted to stay sober. (Interestingly enough, he capitulated on this amend and made a huge one to me too, which was a tearful and hugging experience for both of us, shortly before he died of a stroke). I am so eternally grateful that I had the opportunity to have that moment with him, because there is no longer that particular baggage to deal with.

 

This may not apply to you at all, cuz maybe you don't have issues with your folks. But I grew up a total rebel, as did many others on this board. I've come to realize that if one is in a state of continual rebellion (as I was all up through my police career too; I was just continuing the tradition, apparently) that we can only exercise one half of our options. We must act out in a rebellious fashion. We're unable to make the choice that Love would have us do because we must act to the opposite. This is the liberation I found - the ability to respond with 100% choice, not 50%.

 

I love the line in Hope Floats with Sandra Bullock......."Childhood is the thing we try to get over for the rest of our lives...."

[Birch]

Ironically, waking up to this and working on my relationship with my kids has not translated too well to my parents.

I don't feel nearly the drive to improve the relationship with my folks that I do with my kids (it's not that bad but could be a lot better).

Similarly, if I didn't take the initiative with my kids, I don't know that they would make the effort...

 

I've found out that I just don't want to improve my relationship with my parents. I've heard lots of arguments about 'Well, they're your parents so you should want to.' Why 'should' I want to do? I don't think I could bear to 'make amends' to them. It feels like an injustice.

 

Manitou, how did you do it? And can you guarantee that following that amend you will be free? If so, free of what?

[doc benway]

Hi Steve - this may not pertain to you, but I need to throw something in. There is liberation in improving the situation with your folks. Real liberation, although you seem to have plenty of it. My example is this: I was brought up really heavy handed by a 6'4" cop with a belt. Almost daily my mother would say 'just you wait until your father gets home', because maybe I talked back to her or something. And very often I would have to pull down my pants, bare my butt, and dad would wail on me with the strap. This started at age 6. THEN he would make me put my arms around him and tell him that I loved him, right after the whipping. I grew up hating this son of a bitch.

 

When I got to the amends part of the 12 steps of recovery, I realized that my biggest liberation was making amends for all the times I flipped him off, I ran away from home, I called him names....Even Though He Started It. This was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do - to make amends to him. But I did it because I wanted to stay sober. (Interestingly enough, he capitulated on this amend and made a huge one to me too, which was a tearful and hugging experience for both of us, shortly before he died of a stroke). I am so eternally grateful that I had the opportunity to have that moment with him, because there is no longer that particular baggage to deal with.

 

This may not apply to you at all, cuz maybe you don't have issues with your folks. But I grew up a total rebel, as did many others on this board. I've come to realize that if one is in a state of continual rebellion (as I was all up through my police career too; I was just continuing the tradition, apparently) that we can only exercise one half of our options. We must act out in a rebellious fashion. We're unable to make the choice that Love would have us do because we must act to the opposite. This is the liberation I found - the ability to respond with 100% choice, not 50%.

 

I love the line in Hope Floats with Sandra Bullock......."Childhood is the thing we try to get over for the rest of our lives...."

I appreciate that. I think you are correct and I think it would be valuable for me.

I am going to give more serious consideration to addressing this with them while they are still relatively young and healthy.

Did you approach your folks separately or together?

[doc benway]

I've found out that I just don't want to improve my relationship with my parents. I've heard lots of arguments about 'Well, they're your parents so you should want to.' Why 'should' I want to do? I don't think I could bear to 'make amends' to them. It feels like an injustice.

 

Manitou, how did you do it? And can you guarantee that following that amend you will be free? If so, free of what?

I think that the only reason to do it would be for YOU, not for them, and not for the relationship.

Perhaps, there is some residual pain, or conflict, or blockage in you that could be released as a result.

Maybe not.

But I think it is about you, not them.

[C T]

I've found out that I just don't want to improve my relationship with my parents. I've heard lots of arguments about 'Well, they're your parents so you should want to.' Why 'should' I want to do? I don't think I could bear to 'make amends' to them. It feels like an injustice.

 

Manitou, how did you do it? And can you guarantee that following that amend you will be free? If so, free of what?

 

If forgiveness allows you to live more fully, and function more sanely, then by all means forgive.

 

If it does not make a difference, then do not waste your energy by fretting about the past.

 

Maybe someday it will... maybe it wont.

 

Until then, give your heart into each present moment, as much as you can.

 

If you cannot live in joy today, now, and do not know why or where you are lacking, then a little investigation might be a good way to go. Self investigation does not necessarily mean making amends... sometimes all it means is to find acceptance of human failings.

 

Naturally, if you are able to live in joy, then what does any of this matter?

 

 

 

It hurts me when it hurts you.

Edited June 9, 2011 by CowTao

[manitou]

Self investigation does not necessarily mean making amends... sometimes all it means is to find acceptance of human failings.

 

 

This is probably true of most. But there are exceptions - specifically those who have to go the whole 12 step route to save our own lives. The personal inventory (the acceptance of our human failings) is only the first part. Then we have to tell those human failings to another (a nice ego smasher); and those who actually go further than this get to the amends step. Which is a mo-fo, if you'll pardon my French. Many who just make it to step 4 or 5 can't get beyond that; it is so very painful to make the kind of amends that I did to my dad. But that was the one that went the deepest and was contorting me the most over the years. I was brought up to be the first son, and I was a little girl.

 

The trick is to do it not expecting anything but abuse in return. But having the courage to do it anyway, because the harder it is to do, the more value it has to you, not them. In the case of the amends to my dad, as someone mentioned, it may have done nothing at all for him. (actually, though, I'm pretty sure it did). But it did everything for me. It took an act of courage at some psychic level. In fact, it was probably the biggest clarity distorter of all; the pushed-down, tightly wound rage I think I felt for him just under the skin all my life. And it certainly reflected in the men I chose in my life; they all had a quality that left me feeling like the other shoe was about to drop and I was about to get crunched. That was the comfort level that I had established for myself.

 

So, considering something like an amend, as painful as it will be, may be just the thing that we need. If we feel any residual anger or loathing for those in our past, it does nothing but warp our current clarity. The psychic lens is not a clean one.

 

As to the question about my mom, Steve - I never made one to her because she was such a non-factor in my life. Other than shuffling me over to dad. But what I do now is call her daily (she's in a retirement home) and make sure she laughs at least once a day. I don't particularly like the woman - if she wasn't my mother I wouldnt' have a thing to do with her - but I guess the daily call is a bit of an 'amend' there as well. Sometimes an amend can just be changed behavior.

 

I just think the amend process is pretty powerful stuff.

[C T]

This is probably true of most. But there are exceptions - specifically those who have to go the whole 12 step route to save our own lives. The personal inventory (the acceptance of our human failings) is only the first part. Then we have to tell those human failings to another (a nice ego smasher); and those who actually go further than this get to the amends step. Which is a mo-fo, if you'll pardon my French. Many who just make it to step 4 or 5 can't get beyond that; it is so very painful to make the kind of amends that I did to my dad. But that was the one that went the deepest and was contorting me the most over the years. I was brought up to be the first son, and I was a little girl.

 

The trick is to do it not expecting anything but abuse in return. But having the courage to do it anyway, because the harder it is to do, the more value it has to you, not them. In the case of the amends to my dad, as someone mentioned, it may have done nothing at all for him. (actually, though, I'm pretty sure it did). But it did everything for me. It took an act of courage at some psychic level. In fact, it was probably the biggest clarity distorter of all; the pushed-down, tightly wound rage I think I felt for him just under the skin all my life. And it certainly reflected in the men I chose in my life; they all had a quality that left me feeling like the other shoe was about to drop and I was about to get crunched. That was the comfort level that I had established for myself.

 

So, considering something like an amend, as painful as it will be, may be just the thing that we need. If we feel any residual anger or loathing for those in our past, it does nothing but warp our current clarity. The psychic lens is not a clean one.

 

As to the question about my mom, Steve - I never made one to her because she was such a non-factor in my life. Other than shuffling me over to dad. But what I do now is call her daily (she's in a retirement home) and make sure she laughs at least once a day. I don't particularly like the woman - if she wasn't my mother I wouldnt' have a thing to do with her - but I guess the daily call is a bit of an 'amend' there as well. Sometimes an amend can just be changed behavior.

 

I just think the amend process is pretty powerful stuff.

Thank you, Manitou. I appreciate your stark revelations very much. It takes a person of great courage to express things the way that you frequently do.

 

Life throws things at us whether we like it or not. If we take ourselves too seriously, then we pay a serious price. Alternatively, if we disregard it totally, this too incurs a heavy penalty. Making amends could be a way to find the will and the strength to not fall over either edges.

[Otis]

So, considering something like an amend, as painful as it will be, may be just the thing that we need. If we feel any residual anger or loathing for those in our past, it does nothing but warp our current clarity. The psychic lens is not a clean one.

This is really great, Manitou. Making amends sounds like a really powerful practice.

 

 

 

I think Outi (the girl I named myself after) was the one person I've been most faithful to, in making amends. Because she would not use my amends against me, but would appreciate my apologies, I've felt it very easy to come clean and say sorry.

 

And I'm spoiled by that now. I don't want to have a relationship, in which I'm trying to hold on to power, or to deceive my partner. I've done that in the past, because it was all I knew. But now I've experienced that the relationship that grows from honesty and sincere apology, is so much more enjoyable. And being trusted is worth the discomfort of sharing uncomfortable truths.

[manitou]

 

 

I think Outi (the girl I named myself after) was the one person I've been most faithful to, in making amends. Because she would not use my amends against me, but would appreciate my apologies, I've felt it very easy to come clean and say sorry.

 

 

The only thing I'd add here is that your amend to Outi was one of the easier ones because she appreciated the apologies. This is a good starting place. Any fears we may have have come from a very long time ago, though. These old dynamics are the snowballs that have been getting bigger as they roll down the hill; they can be huge distortions, and yet appear 'normal' to us, because we lived through it and made it just fine....didn't everybody? And these are the ones that are the hardest to make because they hurt the most, and usually involves someone who has treated us unfairly. But making amends to these people (perhaps for our retaliation?) are the very ones that do the most good.

 

This is why the recovery process involves going back through one's life - don Juan Mateus had Carlos do the same, if you recall from the Casteneda series. He had him 'recapitulate his life' and find those dynamic junctions that needed attention, amend, or reconstruction in some way.

 

It would be wonderful if it were enough to just see our negative behavior pattern and then intellectually make the change. But it doesn't seem to work that way. The peacock (pride) will always raise its head if it isn't tamed. So will the pig. Or the snake. Or the monkey. Taming it involves more than making an intellectual decision to change. Of course this is part of it, but to really bring it into the physical realm, some physical steps must be introduced. At least this has been my experience over a relatively long period of time.

Edited June 9, 2011 by manitou

[manitou]

Thank you, Manitou. I appreciate your stark revelations very much. It takes a person of great courage to express things the way that you frequently do.

 

 

Thank you for the kind words, CowTao. But really, the stark revelations are merely a mark of a person who's been in recovery for lots of years. If you were to attend a recovery meeting for some reason, you would hear transparency all over the place. It's the laughter and commonality of our tears and eventual inner healing that reconstructs our shattered lives. I am so very grateful at this point to be an alcoholic, because it set my feet on the path I now walk - I just had no idea when I first walked into the room, bloated, red-faced and sick 30 years ago, that this would be the result . What an incredible surprise. 'It', whatever you want to call it, Knows what It's doing. I guess we must all just play the hand we're dealt in life to the best of our ability. The template for the inner journey is there and waiting for all of us. It's our choice. We can find self-realization or not.

[doc benway]

This is probably true of most. But there are exceptions - specifically those who have to go the whole 12 step route to save our own lives. The personal inventory (the acceptance of our human failings) is only the first part. Then we have to tell those human failings to another (a nice ego smasher); and those who actually go further than this get to the amends step. Which is a mo-fo, if you'll pardon my French. Many who just make it to step 4 or 5 can't get beyond that; it is so very painful to make the kind of amends that I did to my dad. But that was the one that went the deepest and was contorting me the most over the years. I was brought up to be the first son, and I was a little girl.

 

The trick is to do it not expecting anything but abuse in return. But having the courage to do it anyway, because the harder it is to do, the more value it has to you, not them. In the case of the amends to my dad, as someone mentioned, it may have done nothing at all for him. (actually, though, I'm pretty sure it did). But it did everything for me. It took an act of courage at some psychic level. In fact, it was probably the biggest clarity distorter of all; the pushed-down, tightly wound rage I think I felt for him just under the skin all my life. And it certainly reflected in the men I chose in my life; they all had a quality that left me feeling like the other shoe was about to drop and I was about to get crunched. That was the comfort level that I had established for myself.

 

So, considering something like an amend, as painful as it will be, may be just the thing that we need. If we feel any residual anger or loathing for those in our past, it does nothing but warp our current clarity. The psychic lens is not a clean one.

 

As to the question about my mom, Steve - I never made one to her because she was such a non-factor in my life. Other than shuffling me over to dad. But what I do now is call her daily (she's in a retirement home) and make sure she laughs at least once a day. I don't particularly like the woman - if she wasn't my mother I wouldnt' have a thing to do with her - but I guess the daily call is a bit of an 'amend' there as well. Sometimes an amend can just be changed behavior.

 

I just think the amend process is pretty powerful stuff.

 

 

Thank you for the kind words, CowTao. But really, the stark revelations are merely a mark of a person who's been in recovery for lots of years. If you were to attend a recovery meeting for some reason, you would hear transparency all over the place. It's the laughter and commonality of our tears and eventual inner healing that reconstructs our shattered lives. I am so very grateful at this point to be an alcoholic, because it set my feet on the path I now walk - I just had no idea when I first walked into the room, bloated, red-faced and sick 30 years ago, that this would be the result . What an incredible surprise. 'It', whatever you want to call it, Knows what It's doing. I guess we must all just play the hand we're dealt in life to the best of our ability. The template for the inner journey is there and waiting for all of us. It's our choice. We can find self-realization or not.

Wow...

 

I am in awe of your strength.

Thanks for your candor.

 

[manitou]

[Birch]

If forgiveness allows you to live more fully, and function more sanely, then by all means forgive.

 

If it does not make a difference, then do not waste your energy by fretting about the past.

 

Maybe someday it will... maybe it wont.

 

Until then, give your heart into each present moment, as much as you can.

 

If you cannot live in joy today, now, and do not know why or where you are lacking, then a little investigation might be a good way to go. Self investigation does not necessarily mean making amends... sometimes all it means is to find acceptance of human failings.

 

Naturally, if you are able to live in joy, then what does any of this matter?

 

 

 

It hurts me when it hurts you.

 

I guess it matters because it's yet another thing that one is 'supposed' to do to achieve 'liberation'. But at some point, aren't there consequences also for the parents who mistreat their children? Albeit mistreatment out of narcissistic ignorance and the idea that children are 'theirs' in some way? Where do they get that dumba44 idea?

 

Why 'should' parents who mistreat get to have obedient kids and loving kids and kids who will take care of them in old age when the kids get - well, a huge bag of trash to take out for part of their lives until they find out what works? I wasn't a rebellious kid.

 

My only real rebellion has been to say no to this idea that I owe them everything and that I should amend for the pain they caused me. IME people don't like to hear this as it's not 'spiritually correct'. As far as purging the related emotions goes, I'm pretty much done. However my hackles still rise when I hear this 'forgive your parents' thing as if that were the only way. Of course, it might just be and my resistance to doing it might be of some signification, but IMO the recap 'exercise' where you take your power back seems a lot better

[stan herman]

heheheh, who said anything about wanting to be without attachment? I do appreciate the nature of your post though, and applaud your final conclusion =) ..... hmmm, we are spiritual beings having HUMAN experiences I don't want to deny my humanity, though it is good to have

'perfect spiritual being' guidelines plus I'm only 21, I'll have plenty of time to cultivate a

Dr. Manhattan evolutionary model ^_-

 

 

 

I don't want to die without any scars!

 

Absolutely!! And, if you play your cards right you can pick up a number of tricks along the way that work both in getting you more wins in the human game and at the same time make it easier to transfer to the big one when you feel like it.

[manitou]

Absolutely!! And, if you play your cards right you can pick up a number of tricks along the way that work both in getting you more wins in the human game and at the same time make it easier to transfer to the big one when you feel like it.

 

LOL. I'd start with The Art of War. The transition would just be a flip of the coin.

[C T]

I guess it matters because it's yet another thing that one is 'supposed' to do to achieve 'liberation'. But at some point, aren't there consequences also for the parents who mistreat their children? Albeit mistreatment out of narcissistic ignorance and the idea that children are 'theirs' in some way? Where do they get that dumba44 idea?

 

Why 'should' parents who mistreat get to have obedient kids and loving kids and kids who will take care of them in old age when the kids get - well, a huge bag of trash to take out for part of their lives until they find out what works? I wasn't a rebellious kid.

 

My only real rebellion has been to say no to this idea that I owe them everything and that I should amend for the pain they caused me. IME people don't like to hear this as it's not 'spiritually correct'. As far as purging the related emotions goes, I'm pretty much done. However my hackles still rise when I hear this 'forgive your parents' thing as if that were the only way. Of course, it might just be and my resistance to doing it might be of some signification, but IMO the recap 'exercise' where you take your power back seems a lot better

We are deviating waaay off topic here... but anyways,

 

This is the part i do not understand - what makes people cling on to the idea that there is anything to 'do' in order to 'achieve' liberation, of all things? This is a self-defeating sentiment, and can only lead to compounded false premises and misdirected views being created out of this confusion. At least this is true within the framework of Buddhist practice. The teachings have been quite explicit in explaining this concept - that the idea of an 'I' that can go from point A to point B or C or D is a merely an idea. that there really is no one going anywhere. This here now is exactly where we are attempting to go. So abandon all notions that there is somewhere more pleasant, more free, more peaceful to get to. Someone once remarked, "If you want to know your past, and past lives, if that is the belief, look at where you are now; if you want to know your future (and lives), see where you are now."

 

As far as your defiance to making amends goes, i am with you on this one, Miss K. Although i am not against doing it per se. What i am saying is that if we choose to do it, do it with full awareness, and if we choose to not do it, also do this with full awareness. That is all there is to it really. Otherwise it becomes hard to release the lethargy of lugging such a tremendous amount of imagined baggage.

 

Maybe the conflict resulting from past trauma makes it very difficult to be clear headed. But then, we do have a choice in deciding what we want our main focus to be - either to remain overwhelmed by the consequences and choose to remain a victim, which can be nice, because we get to shift responsibility for remaining sulky and we find all the justifications why we want to continue to be hoarders of the antiquities of our past, (the easy way) OR, we can choose to work on creating the right causes from this moment on so that tomorrow's harvest could be different from yesterday's. (the simple way)

 

As i have mentioned, if you are ok now, if you are living in joy and have a serene disposition presently, why bother with the expectations that surround this issue? Are you trying to find the right excuse in preparation for the possible future event that you may one day live to regret that you could not bring yourself to be on the right terms with your parents? Think about it. Is this the right approach? How will the future pan out if we decide that we want to cling to our painful past? Just be aware of this is enough. You do not really need to do anything you find no comfort in doing.

 

Manifesting this awareness in itself, without the need to do anything else, is like planting the seeds and not having to go to the field very so often to check if the seeds are sprouting yet. Everything has their own time. If you take care of this moment, the next day is taken care of. As the next day improves due to the actions of today, slowly, we can change the past, without even having to do anything directly to effect the change. Wu wei.

 

People have a tendency to put up scarecrows even before seeds have sprouted. Who knows, maybe the birds might not even be interested in fruits, they might only want to eat fish. But we imagine a lot of things... the joys of being human, i guess!

 

All the best, Miss K. Remember, you do not have to do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. But doing something small and good, in each moment, cannot be uncomfortable. Just start somewhere, anywhere, right now. baby steps.

Edited June 10, 2011 by CowTao

[Bluefront]

Truth has to be experienced directly. It's not to be found somewhere. It does not exist in the future nor the past. So looking there won't do any good.

Truth is everywhere. But if you think you can find it by listening to others talking about, discussing it, philosophizing about it you are very, very misinformed.

 

You have to look at what there is right now, in this very moment, because that's all there is bro, and if truth is to exist anywhere at all it's right here right now.

 

The only form of practice I can recommend for finding out is what Jed McKenna calls "spiritual autolysis" (autolysis = self digestion)

 

It's very simple. You begin with writing down something you firmly believe to be true. Then go ahead and look at it and write down all the reasons it's not true. Look for the cause behind those reasons too.

Don't leave any ends un-answered. If a question like "who is writing this" comes up then fucking drill it to the end.

 

If you have zero imagination then you can start with questions such as; is there anyone thinking my thoughts? Do I exist? Examine where the answers come from. Is there someone answering them? Look for any kind of beliefs you have about these answers. Who is looking? Who is saying that one answer is more true than another, or is it just based on previous beliefs and assumptions?

 

If you think you have reached some kind of absolute statement, then look at it again, watch it burn and dissolve, like any lie does when seen through.

 

You can't "learn truth". You can however unlearn whats not true.

 

Keep going with this. There are no rules here

 

Watch out for traps. Maybe you find yourself thinking "well, at one point in the future I will get this, once I have unlearned all lies, then I will be free"

 

It's so easy to delegate these matters into the future..

Edited June 10, 2011 by Bluefront

[manitou]

Truth has to be experienced directly. It's not to be found somewhere. It does not exist in the future nor the past. So looking there won't do any good.

Truth is everywhere. But if you think you can find it by listening to others talking about, discussing it, philosophizing about it you are very, very misinformed.

 

You have to look at what there is right now, in this very moment, because that's all there is bro, and if truth is to exist anywhere at all it's right here right now.

 

The only form of practice I can recommend for finding out is what Jed McKenna calls "spiritual autolysis" (autolysis = self digestion)

 

It's very simple. You begin with writing down something you firmly believe to be true. Then go ahead and look at it and write down all the reasons it's not true. Look for the cause behind those reasons too.

Don't leave any ends un-answered. If a question like "who is writing this" comes up then fucking drill it to the end.

 

If you have zero imagination then you can start with questions such as; is there anyone thinking my thoughts? Do I exist? Examine where the answers come from. Is there someone answering them? Look for any kind of beliefs you have about these answers. Who is looking? Who is saying that one answer is more true than another, or is it just based on previous beliefs and assumptions?

 

If you think you have reached some kind of absolute statement, then look at it again, watch it burn and dissolve, like any lie does when seen through.

 

You can't "learn truth". You can however unlearn whats not true.

 

Keep going with this. There are no rules here

 

Watch out for traps. Maybe you find yourself thinking "well, at one point in the future I will get this, once I have unlearned all lies, then I will be free"

 

It's so easy to delegate these matters into the future..

 

 

I love the idea of self digestion. This is it exactly. If we remain stuck in one place and viewing the world through angry eyes (because of things that happened in our childhood) our lens will always be clouded. We don't have to uncloud our own lens if we don't want to. We don't have to do anything we don't want to. But we can't wish the clouded lens away.

 

If your template is followed earnestly, it would lead to the same uncarved wood that other inner templates take you. It must be done earnestly and honestly. Preconceived attitudes are visible to others, and this comes out in anger, sarcasm, and challenged ego on this forum. Plenty.

Edited June 10, 2011 by manitou

[Bluefront]

If we remain stuck in one place and viewing the world through angry eyes (because of things that happened in our childhood) our lens will always be clouded. We don't have to uncloud our own lens if we don't want to. We don't have to do anything we don't want to. But we can't wish the clouded lens away.

 

If your template is followed earnestly, it would lead to the same uncarved wood that other inner templates take you. It must be done earnestly and honestly. Preconceived attitudes are visible to others, and this comes out in anger, sarcasm, and challenged ego on this forum. Plenty.

 

The irony of all this is that the lens does not exist. People believe it to exist and they try to polish it, make it clearer..

 

The lens only exists as a true illusion, in a sense that it appears but what it's pointing to is completely false.

[Birch]

I love the idea of self digestion. This is it exactly. If we remain stuck in one place and viewing the world through angry eyes (because of things that happened in our childhood) our lens will always be clouded. We don't have to uncloud our own lens if we don't want to. We don't have to do anything we don't want to. But we can't wish the clouded lens away.

 

If your template is followed earnestly, it would lead to the same uncarved wood that other inner templates take you. It must be done earnestly and honestly. Preconceived attitudes are visible to others, and this comes out in anger, sarcasm, and challenged ego on this forum. Plenty.

 

 

Thanks for this Manitou, it made me absolutely furious (no sarcasm intended) in that 'drive by' manner. So I started wondering why your post made me furious and Cow Tao's didn't make me furious and I couldn't figure it out, but I was furious all day (in between doing other things...)

 

I suspect that if I told you what made me furious, you'd end up furious (or justifying yourself) and that would be pointless :-)

 

But I did find this. Maybe I should move it to the other thread.

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200902/anger-problems-how-words-make-them-worse.

 

 

Thanks again! (no sarcasm intended:-))

[Birch]

Truth has to be experienced directly. It's not to be found somewhere. It does not exist in the future nor the past. So looking there won't do any good.

Truth is everywhere. But if you think you can find it by listening to others talking about, discussing it, philosophizing about it you are very, very misinformed.

 

You have to look at what there is right now, in this very moment, because that's all there is bro, and if truth is to exist anywhere at all it's right here right now.

 

The only form of practice I can recommend for finding out is what Jed McKenna calls "spiritual autolysis" (autolysis = self digestion)

 

It's very simple. You begin with writing down something you firmly believe to be true. Then go ahead and look at it and write down all the reasons it's not true. Look for the cause behind those reasons too.

Don't leave any ends un-answered. If a question like "who is writing this" comes up then fucking drill it to the end.

 

If you have zero imagination then you can start with questions such as; is there anyone thinking my thoughts? Do I exist? Examine where the answers come from. Is there someone answering them? Look for any kind of beliefs you have about these answers. Who is looking? Who is saying that one answer is more true than another, or is it just based on previous beliefs and assumptions?

 

If you think you have reached some kind of absolute statement, then look at it again, watch it burn and dissolve, like any lie does when seen through.

 

You can't "learn truth". You can however unlearn whats not true.

 

Keep going with this. There are no rules here

 

Watch out for traps. Maybe you find yourself thinking "well, at one point in the future I will get this, once I have unlearned all lies, then I will be free"

 

It's so easy to delegate these matters into the future..

 

 

'...f*cking drill it to the end'."

 

Right.

 

With most of these practices I end up with 'I don't know'. To the question 'who is writing this?' the answer 'I don't know'.

 

Any advice on what you do with that sucker?

[Aaron]

The irony of all this is that the lens does not exist. People believe it to exist and they try to polish it, make it clearer..

 

The lens only exists as a true illusion, in a sense that it appears but what it's pointing to is completely false.

 

 

The problem bluefront, is that it exists and doesn't exist. Yes it is an illusion, but it is also real. So it is pointing at something false, but it is also point at something true. It is only when you can see how it is both false and true, that you can truly identify it for what it is and isn't.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

'...f*cking drill it to the end'."

 

Right.

 

With most of these practices I end up with 'I don't know'. To the question 'who is writing this?' the answer 'I don't know'.

 

Any advice on what you do with that sucker?

 

Who were you before you entered your mother's womb? I hate questions like that. I think it's much easier to ask, if you have never known someone or heard their name, how can you know they exist? If they have not known you, then how can they know you exist? It is not a requirement that someone knows who you are for you to be here, but rather that you are here, but then if you are not really here, where are you?

 

Aaron

Edited June 10, 2011 by Twinner

[Birch]

Who were you before you entered your mother's womb? I hate questions like that. I think it's much easier to ask, if you have never known someone or heard their name, how can you know they exist? If they have not known you, then how can they know you exist? It is not a requirement that someone knows who you are for you to be here, but rather that you are here, but then if you are not really here, where are you?

 

Aaron

Confused?

 

No look. I believe what we (might be) referring to might be as in the 'I am this and that, I was born here and there and I have XYZ values and if you step on them it hurts a mofo. Right. Now I know this. Do you still want me to get rid of it???

 

But I was still born here and there. Before I had a name, I existed.