What seems to be the truth...?

[ChiDragon]

1. The truth is to be found out what it was.

2. How do we know when does the truth reveal itself...???

3. How can one conclude that was the truth...???

3. How can anyone convince that was the truth to others...???

 

Does anyone know what the truth is...???

[alect]

I don't know.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. The Truth (cap "T").

 

This would require any statement to be true regardless of any and all conditions.

 

I hold to only two Truths:

 

Tao is dynamic.

 

There are processes within the dynamics of Tao.

 

Beyond that all my truths are small truths and constantly subject to change.

 

However, in living our life we generally needs some truths in order to live a meaningful life. I guess the best we can do is hope that our truths give us good guidance in living a fruitful life, whatever that might be.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

1. The truth is to be found out what it was.

2. How do we know when does the truth reveal itself...???

3. How can one conclude that was the truth...???

3. How can anyone convince that was the truth to others...???

 

Does anyone know what the truth is...???

 

The Truth, (cap. T).. I guess that would be, if it's only ONE thing, some kind of spiritual light that knows all and sees all, which some people manage to tap in to or communicate with. We think we know reality, but when we tap in to this we realize that everything is connected and everything can be known. How do you convince others? How do you convince a cat that cars run on gasoline?

 

Truth, otherwise, I would say is sincerity. Being sincere and following your gut as to who you are. Not cow towing with the rest of the herd, accepting modes of behaviour, belief, attitudes, perspectives, speech. Being sincere, we can know the truth of who we are. Once this is disregarded, we can't know the difference between real and falseness in our own behaviour/actions and so are separated from who we truly are. This would also be the first step to being inaccessible to harmony with a more macrocosmic Truth.

 

My favourite writing on sincerity is Chuang Tzu's "The Old Fisherman."

[doc benway]

Very challenging question - what is truth?

One definition is 'to be in accordance with reality.'

So then, what is reality?

 

Is reality a thought or concept or is it something that goes beyond thought and concepts? I would apply the same approach to truth.

So if truth is something that transcends thought and concept, how best to approach it?

 

Can we use thought to transcend thought?

All thought is conditioned and truth, if it is reality, must be unstained by conditioning.

So can thought, which is the product of conditioning, ever approach truth?

 

Krishnamurti loved to work with this problem and his approach was to invite us to try and see our condititioning because if we can see it, there is hope to drop it.

Only then can we hope to understand how to approach truth.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I heard a Russian mathematician developed an elegant formula to quantify it. It was later disproven when somebody pointed out that he forgot to carry the '1'.

[suninmyeyes]

1. The truth is to be found out what it was.

2. How do we know when does the truth reveal itself...???

3. How can one conclude that was the truth...???

3. How can anyone convince that was the truth to others...???

 

Does anyone know what the truth is...???

I am not sure about the Truth ,as it is still a point of view no matter how deep.

However ,deep listening that shows how to have appropriate action never fails .It is like dancing with Silence whilst he is leading and holding me in his arms.

[stan herman]

Hehehe. The Truth (cap "T").

 

This would require any statement to be true regardless of any and all conditions.

 

I hold to only two Truths:

 

Tao is dynamic.

 

There are processes within the dynamics of Tao.

 

Beyond that all my truths are small truths and constantly subject to change.

 

However, in living our life we generally needs some truths in order to live a meaningful life. I guess the best we can do is hope that our truths give us good guidance in living a fruitful life, whatever that might be.

 

Yes indeed, Marblehead. My favorite way of saying it: "All truths are contingent upon context and consciousness" Ultimate truth is unsayable.

[ChiDragon]

1. I don't know.

Very straight forward and honest answer.

 

2. Beyond that all my truths are small truths and constantly subject to change.

If the small truths are constantly subject to change, then, the truth was uncertain all the time. Hence, the truth has not been found.

 

3. Only then can we hope to understand how to approach truth.

This is seems like only a hope to understand how to approach truth but not to find the truth.

 

4. Being sincere, we can know the truth of who we are. Once this is disregarded, we can't know the difference between real and falseness in our own behaviour/actions and so are separated from who we truly are. This would also be the first step to being inaccessible to harmony with a more macrocosmic Truth.

This seems to be very philosophical about the truth of who we are but not the truth itself.

 

5. "All truths are contingent upon context and consciousness" Ultimate truth is unsayable.

This seems like only one's own truth but there is no real truth.

 

6. I am not sure about the Truth, as it is still a point of view no matter how deep.

This seems like the Truth was only an opinion.

 

 

My Truth is a thought that is most logical, supported by other known facts, indisputable within reason and beyond any unreasonable doubt.

Edited June 6, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Sometime knowing the Truth hurts, what was the truth that had hurt you the most in your life time...???

[Aaron]

This is a great topic. I think for me I have to be reminded that the truth has different meanings and these meanings can change depending on the period of time we examine them in.

 

The Ancient Persians believed truth was paramount and sacred. If you were caught in a lie you could be put to death, even if it was a trivial lie. Now the thing to remember is that the truth to the Persians was different than what we might consider it today. For the Persians the truth was a sign of a man's character, who they were as a person. If one was not truthful, then that defined them as being more than simply a liar, but a murderer, thief, and malcontent. This idea actually carried on through the centuries throughout many cultures, maybe not to the same extreme, but it definitely played a part in our perception of truthfulness and Truth with a capital T.

 

When a man sought the truth, they were doing more than just trying to find an answer, they were searching deep within themselves for something that was not readily apparent. They were essentially learning about their true character, who they were at the root of their being, so when we examine this idea of truth today, in modern times, we can loose some of the significance of the idea of searching for truth, the noble pursuit it once was.

 

A man who is searching for the truth, is doing more than relating what is real and what isn't, they are seeking a purpose within and without, examining their own nature, their own reality, one that is not just defined by the objects they can see and touch, but also those things that exist only within the corners of the mind, those things that arise only when reality has been wiped away.

 

Can we ever know the truth? Perhaps not. Perhaps the problem is not that there is no Truth (with a capital T), but rather that we mistake many small truths for a singular greater Truth, and in doing so, end up lying to ourselves.

 

Aaron

Edited June 7, 2011 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Sometime knowing the Truth hurts, what was the truth that had hurt you the most in your life time...???

 

 

I think the truth that hurt me the most was the potential for cruelty in man. Once someone sees the depth of pain one can inflict on another, it is very hard to come back to that place of innocence that once was there.

 

Aaron

[Otis]

1. The truth is to be found out what it was.

2. How do we know when does the truth reveal itself...???

3. How can one conclude that was the truth...???

3. How can anyone convince that was the truth to others...???

 

Does anyone know what the truth is...???

One of the great things that talking on Taoist forums has done for me: it has forced me to examine closely, whether I could really justify making assertions about the actual world. Any assertion I would make, if I honestly examined it, would always rest, ultimately, on an unsupported assertion. Every single fact was a blind alley, based on some combination of assumption and hearsay, some appeal to authority.

 

The only truth about reality that I think I can see clearly, is that I cannot see reality clearly. There are too many possible answers for any one question, for me to ever say, with any kind of authority, what is actually real. At best, I think we might say that truths are probability clusters, rather than specific points.

 

What does truth even mean, when I only have experience? Experience is always (at best) just a reflection of truth. It cannot reveal truth, because truth is always bigger than the experience that arises from it. The experience is just a pattern in a brain.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Otis

[Marblehead]

I think the truth that hurt me the most was the potential for cruelty in man. Once someone sees the depth of pain one can inflict on another, it is very hard to come back to that place of innocence that once was there.

 

Aaron

 

But it can be done, Aaron. But we first have to recognize reality for what it really is. (By 'reality' I am speaking to the Taoist concept of the Manifest.)

 

Things go "Boom" all the time. Bears poop in the woods. When we go walking in the woods there is a good chance our feet may become poopy.

 

And while it is true that there is great potential for cruelity from man there is also potential for great goodness. Even thieves have honor amongst thieves.

 

But again, these are small truths. A cruel man can become a good man. An exploding star can become an entire new solar system capable of supporting life.

[manitou]

The more one does the inner cultivation, the more the truth resonates within when it is heard.

[doc benway]

I think the truth that hurt me the most was the potential for cruelty in man. Once someone sees the depth of pain one can inflict on another, it is very hard to come back to that place of innocence that once was there.

 

Aaron

I agree Aaron. This is very painful to recognize. I had a crisis around the time of the Rwandan and Yugoslavian genocides. It's what led me to begin a spiritual investigation. Even more painful is when you see the capacity within yourself for causing another's pain. But recognizing these things is good. Once you see the capacity for cruelty, you have the opportunity to do good instead. You get to choose.

 

I don't think that the innocence that you refer to can ever, or should ever, be recovered. I do think we can recover a childlike fascination with the world and our lives and that is extremely enriching. The innocence that allows us to believe that such human cruelty does not exist is an ignorance and it is dangerous. I do think that we can recognize our common humanity and develop a very deep capacity for love and compassion, however, and this goes a long way to balancing the pain and suffering as Marble alluded to.

[doc benway]

The more one does the inner cultivation, the more the truth resonates within when it is heard.

This is so true!

[Aaron]

Hehehe... I wasn't really expecting a response to my statement. I thought it was a question that people might answer. The answer for me was quite simple.

 

I agree with you Steve, you can never regain that innocence, but I think in part that is what allows for cruelty to exist. I don't necessarily believe we are cruel by nature, but rather at some point it became a way of behaving that we saw as normal. For me, I understand my capacity for evil, but I agree, it's in understanding that capacity that one truly begins to see the capacity for good, and also to appreciate the nature of compassion in its most purest sense.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I think even more important, is perceiving good and evil for what they are, merely constructs. So perhaps I should say, I can see my capacity for cruelty and compassion.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Twinner

[doc benway]

Hehehe... I wasn't really expecting a response to my statement. I thought it was a question that people might answer. The answer for me was quite simple.

 

I agree with you Steve, you can never regain that innocence, but I think in part that is what allows for cruelty to exist. I don't necessarily believe we are cruel by nature, but rather at some point it became a way of behaving that we saw as normal. For me, I understand my capacity for evil, but I agree, it's in understanding that capacity that one truly begins to see the capacity for good, and also to appreciate the nature of compassion in its most purest sense.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I think even more important, is perceiving good and evil for what they are, merely constructs. So perhaps I should say, I can see my capacity for cruelty and compassion.

I guess I responded because your post struck a chord with me.

 

When my kids were young, I worked very hard, very long hours, and did the best I could to be a good father, at least that's what I thought at the time. One day, I looked back and saw it very differently. I could see how I had been too selfish, distant, and even mean and demanding. I was able to see my behavior as if I were someone else. I could see the negative impact it had on them and our relationship. I could see my own father in my actions (he had been very distant and tough) and it hit me like a ton of bricks - enormous guilt and regret. It was the truth that has hurt me the most to date.

 

The good news is that I woke up. And I recognize that I did the best I could with the tools I had at the time and, most importantly, that it's never too late to work on relationships. So for the past several years I've worked very hard at improving my relationships with my kids and it has paid off.

[Aaron]

I guess I responded because your post struck a chord with me.

 

When my kids were young, I worked very hard, very long hours, and did the best I could to be a good father, at least that's what I thought at the time. One day, I looked back and saw it very differently. I could see how I had been too selfish, distant, and even mean and demanding. I was able to see my behavior as if I were someone else. I could see the negative impact it had on them and our relationship. I could see my own father in my actions (he had been very distant and tough) and it hit me like a ton of bricks - enormous guilt and regret. It was the truth that has hurt me the most to date.

 

The good news is that I woke up. And I recognize that I did the best I could with the tools I had at the time and, most importantly, that it's never too late to work on relationships. So for the past several years I've worked very hard at improving my relationships with my kids and it has paid off.

 

 

What I liked about this is that you saw where you did wrong and rather than make excuses, you made amends. Beautiful.

 

Aaron

[Birch]

I guess I responded because your post struck a chord with me.

 

When my kids were young, I worked very hard, very long hours, and did the best I could to be a good father, at least that's what I thought at the time. One day, I looked back and saw it very differently. I could see how I had been too selfish, distant, and even mean and demanding. I was able to see my behavior as if I were someone else. I could see the negative impact it had on them and our relationship. I could see my own father in my actions (he had been very distant and tough) and it hit me like a ton of bricks - enormous guilt and regret. It was the truth that has hurt me the most to date.

 

The good news is that I woke up. And I recognize that I did the best I could with the tools I had at the time and, most importantly, that it's never too late to work on relationships. So for the past several years I've worked very hard at improving my relationships with my kids and it has paid off.

 

Ah yes. This is the part I have realised about my parents, but they have not. Or if they have, they have not made me party to it. So I'm not quite sure what to "do" about it. And to be very honest, I feel like I can't do anything to improve anything (although they keep telling me - or is it 'asking'? me to do so). I just don't have the strength to. Not only were they (both) a drain on me for the time I lived with them but they also wish me to continue giving to the(ir) very end. I happen to find this runs contrary to 'taking personal responsability' - aside from the expectations I had about what parents are 'supposed' to do for children (and I don't know where I got that from). When I consider my parents, I feel my life draining out of myself. So. Best not to do that too often :-)

[doc benway]

Ah yes. This is the part I have realised about my parents, but they have not. Or if they have, they have not made me party to it. So I'm not quite sure what to "do" about it. And to be very honest, I feel like I can't do anything to improve anything (although they keep telling me - or is it 'asking'? me to do so). I just don't have the strength to. Not only were they (both) a drain on me for the time I lived with them but they also wish me to continue giving to the(ir) very end. I happen to find this runs contrary to 'taking personal responsability' - aside from the expectations I had about what parents are 'supposed' to do for children (and I don't know where I got that from). When I consider my parents, I feel my life draining out of myself. So. Best not to do that too often :-)

Ironically, waking up to this and working on my relationship with my kids has not translated too well to my parents.

I don't feel nearly the drive to improve the relationship with my folks that I do with my kids (it's not that bad but could be a lot better).

Similarly, if I didn't take the initiative with my kids, I don't know that they would make the effort...

[fizix]

The truth...... the Truth is that there is only One... thus only One truth. "Only", yet everything.. but also nothing.."no-thing". One Truth...

 

One Energy.

One Mind.

One Being.

One Voice.

One Mover.

One Consciousness.

One Teacher.

One Will.

One Self.

One Light.

One Source.

One Love...

 

...some call it the Tao...

 

The illusion of the ego is what perpetuates the falsehood of duality, separateness, structure with inevitable chaos, disconnection from the Source... though it is said that without darkness, there can be no light. When one lives in unity with their true, nameless Self, union with the Tao, they will be free of judgement, free of desire, free of suffering.. this is the state of the so-called 'Enlightenment'.

Edited June 8, 2011 by fizix

[Aaron]

The truth...... the Truth is that there is only One... thus only One truth. "Only", yet everything.. but also nothing.."no-thing". One Truth...

 

One Energy.

One Mind.

One Being.

One Voice.

One Mover.

One Consciousness.

One Teacher.

One Will.

One Self.

One Light.

One Source.

One Love...

 

...some call it the Tao...

 

The illusion of the ego is what perpetuates the falsehood of duality, separateness, structure with inevitable chaos, disconnection from the Source... though it is said that without darkness, there can be no light. When one lives in unity with their true, nameless Self, union with the Tao, they will be free of judgement, free of desire, free of suffering.. this is the state of the so-called 'Enlightenment'.

 

 

Yes but believing that the ego is an illusion is an attachment in its own right. Even if it's a liberating construct, that doesn't mean that you are not attached to it. If you truly want to be without attachments then you need to let that go as well. Perhaps it's easier to just say nothing is true? But then saying that is an attachment as well... I guess there's really no way to be free of attachment, because even detaching means you're attached to detachment. It really is a paradox.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I do want to point out I agree with you regarding there only being One. I call it "It", but One works too.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Twinner

[fizix]

Yes but believing that the ego is an illusion is an attachment in its own right. Even if it's a liberating construct, that doesn't mean that you are not attached to it. If you truly want to be without attachments then you need to let that go as well. Perhaps it's easier to just say nothing is true? But then saying that is an attachment as well... I guess there's really no way to be free of attachment, because even detaching means you're attached to detachment. It really is a paradox.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I do want to point out I agree with you regarding there only being One. I call it "It", but One works too.

heheheh, who said anything about wanting to be without attachment? I do appreciate the nature of your post though, and applaud your final conclusion =) ..... hmmm, we are spiritual beings having HUMAN experiences I don't want to deny my humanity, though it is good to have

'perfect spiritual being' guidelines plus I'm only 21, I'll have plenty of time to cultivate a

Dr. Manhattan evolutionary model ^_-

 

 

 

I don't want to die without any scars!