Liu I-Ming 18th century Taoist Adept

[fatguyslim]

Hey everyone, I am posing a message on this forum to connect with anyone who has read Liu I-Ming's texts and who follows his teachings. I have been reading his text for 2 years now and I have to admit that being an Indian and being immersed in Indian culture for most of my life I have never came across any genuine teachers or anyone who could guide toward the truth. This made me push away from the Indian way of spirituality and I was shut off from the whole idea of spirituality for a long time. I was introduced to the text by a very genuine friend of mine who till this day has helped me massively in understanding the text and also learning through the process of helping. Liu's text has clicked with me the most and through his teachings I have left my mundane life that I had in Britain and have moved away to seek for more answers.

 

Me ad my friend have now come to a point where we don't know what the next step should be. I am hoping to get a reply from someone with more understanding of the alchemical text. If you are such a person then please send me a private message or just post a reply and I will get back to you.

 

Thank you

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hey everyone, I am posing a message on this forum to connect with anyone who has read Liu I-Ming's texts and who follows his teachings. I have been reading his text for 2 years now and I have to admit that being an Indian and being immersed in Indian culture for most of my life I have never came across any genuine teachers or anyone who could guide toward the truth. This made me push away from the Indian way of spirituality and I was shut off from the whole idea of spirituality for a long time. I was introduced to the text by a very genuine friend of mine who till this day has helped me massively in understanding the text and also learning through the process of helping. Liu's text has clicked with me the most and through his teachings I have left my mundane life that I had in Britain and have moved away to seek for more answers.

 

Me ad my friend have now come to a point where we don't know what the next step should be. I am hoping to get a reply from someone with more understanding of the alchemical text. If you are such a person then please send me a private message or just post a reply and I will get back to you.

 

Thank you

 

I've been going back to this book over and over as well. Absolutely one of the most impactful books for me. If you haven't already, I would recommend picking up Cleary's compilation "Vitality, Energy, Spirit." It has a lot of contemplative literature similar to Awakening To The Tao.

 

I'm not a master, or much of a devoted student, so I wouldn't have much guidance, other than to find a devoted Qi Gong teacher that practices Internal Alchemy or Nei Gong. Another good starter for Taoist living is Daniel Reid's "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" though I would venture to guess Liu I Ming practiced abstinence - there is still some essential stuff in there.

 

You might also want to look in to Dragon Gate Sanctuary and other Dragon Gate schools as they seem to be the most reliably pure lineage to Taoist Alchemy that will teach the uninitiated.

[fatguyslim]

I've been going back to this book over and over as well. Absolutely one of the most impactful books for me. If you haven't already, I would recommend picking up Cleary's compilation "Vitality, Energy, Spirit." It has a lot of contemplative literature similar to Awakening To The Tao.

 

I'm not a master, or much of a devoted student, so I wouldn't have much guidance, other than to find a devoted Qi Gong teacher that practices Internal Alchemy or Nei Gong. Another good starter for Taoist living is Daniel Reid's "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" though I would venture to guess Liu I Ming practiced abstinence - there is still some essential stuff in there.

 

You might also want to look in to Dragon Gate Sanctuary and other Dragon Gate schools as they seem to be the most reliably pure lineage to Taoist Alchemy that will teach the uninitiated.

 

My friend and I have almost all the books by Liu I-Ming that have been translated by Cleary but we don't know if the translation is to the point. Even though Cleary is not like other translators he still translates the text like a scholar. The words are not very clear in certain context. I tend to follow what Liu says about various practices and techniques, and try to stay away from them. I am not saying that they don't work, I am just going by what the master says. I was hoping to connect with someone who could guide us towards the right direction so that we don't end in more confusion.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

My friend and I have almost all the books by Liu I-Ming that have been translated by Cleary but we don't know if the translation is to the point. Even though Cleary is not like other translators he still translates the text like a scholar. The words are not very clear in certain context. I tend to follow what Liu says about various practices and techniques, and try to stay away from them. I am not saying that they don't work, I am just going by what the master says. I was hoping to connect with someone who could guide us towards the right direction so that we don't end in more confusion.

 

Well then, care to share what these other books are?? I didn't realize so much was translated.

 

Hopefully some of the more dedicated Nei Gong practitioners here can help you out.

[Guest munky]

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Edited October 23, 2014 by munky

[fatguyslim]

Well then, care to share what these other books are?? I didn't realize so much was translated.

 

Hopefully some of the more dedicated Nei Gong practitioners here can help you out.

 

The books include Awakening to the Tao (his own composition Liu I-Ming, you can't put a price on this book), Understanding Reality (Chang Po-Tuan commentary by Liu I-Ming), Inner teachings of Taoism (which includes Four Hundred Words on the gold pill by Chang Po-Tuan commentary by Liu I-Ming), Journey to the west (short commentary by Liu I-Ming like a page explaining how to read Journey to the west), The Taoist I Ching (amazing commentary by Liu I-Ming a true gem in terms of I Ching commentaries it also include the text from the yin convergence), Vitality, Energy, Spirit (I would stick to what Liu I-Ming and Chang Po-Tuan share in this book). Liu has also done a commentary on Triplex Unity, Tapping the Lines (Qiaoyao ge), The Hundred Character Inscription, The Rootless tree (Wugenshu). I am sure there must be more books but they never got translated into English.

 

I get so excited when I type stuff like this its like I really want to go ahead and look for a teacher but with my human mind is that even possible in this 21st Century when false has reached its peak and real has retreated back into hiding so that only genuine students can reach it? I don't know I NEED HELP!!!

[fatguyslim]

hi there i have the thomas cleary translations compilations. Volume one and volume two taoist translations which was a very good deal since they include 3 or so translated books in each volume. I believe liu i ming made commentary on a few of those texts, he did not actually write them. Understanding reality and inner teachings of taoism they were called. I personally found these writings immensely helpful since liu i ming provides commentary on the symbolic language that is very hard to understand and there have been numerous interpretations of what they mean.

It know what you mean when you say it tells to stay away from certain practices as a lot of the translated texts and their commentaries talk about the way of absolute non-resistance, advocating internal alchemy while living in society, not just living in the mountains and meditating all day.

This is opposed to the other numerous interpretations of the symbolic language which represent very different things depending on what type of practice one is doing. Some have been meaning to perform complex circulating of energy and sexual cultivation which must be imparted to you by a master.

when i read the texts and the commentary i felt i did understand what was being said, through my own experiences.

I also feel it has a lot of similarities to the information in bruce frantzis' work as well as the tao te ching. The focus is on cultivating the tao through increasing your wisdom and virtue so that you can perceive the nonduality of things and how one should neither attach to emptiness or form but see it as one, and only then i believe is real knowledge combining with conscious knowledge.

Since it doesn't meantion using the mind to circulate energy, If you are confused then dont guess what this or that means, as eventually you do understand more. Once you understand something you know you don't physically move away from a mundane life, rather you live among the mundane but your internal state is not. Then you use your everday life to cultivate your virtue and tao along with meditation. Whether or not you find a teacher for this way, it all depends on that

 

I agree with you but as you might have read Liu constantly urges students to look for genuine teachers, which if you believe it or not are impossible to find in this mundane 21st century. The time when he wrote this text was 18th century and he struggled his whole life to become an immortal. It wasn't after three masters that he finally got the true knowledge and as he says "After more than twenty years, I finally knew myself; after a hundred thousand refinements, for the first time I climbed up into the Ark." I always look at the line "after hundred thousand refinements" and laugh to myself that I have definitely have more than that to refine.

 

Man I can't explain how important this is for me... My friend and I are the only ones who stick to what Liu says and try to practice what he says but its very hard. Liu even says "One should go along with what one desires and should gradually bring it from disharmony to harmony." Now it's all well and good in the text but how would one begin with doing that? It's so true, and right in front of me but i can't fathom it. Tao Te Ching says a master appears when the student is ready. Well how am I going to be ready?

 

Any practice or techniques I may use would be my own mindset and it will only put me into more confusion. My friend almost tried doing that when he went to China and he was internally devastated as how he did not understand any of it. We can't fathom true from false and any attempt at practicing something would be giving up ones strength.

 

I have never shared this with anyone through the medium of internet and I am thinking would I get screwed over for this or will I get some knowledge to break through my ignorance? I am open to a good discussion guys.

 

Thanks

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I agree with you but as you might have read Liu constantly urges students to look for genuine teachers, which if you believe it or not are impossible to find in this mundane 21st century. The time when he wrote this text was 18th century and he struggled his whole life to become an immortal. It wasn't after three masters that he finally got the true knowledge and as he says "After more than twenty years, I finally knew myself; after a hundred thousand refinements, for the first time I climbed up into the Ark." I always look at the line "after hundred thousand refinements" and laugh to myself that I have definitely have more than that to refine.

 

Man I can't explain how important this is for me... My friend and I are the only ones who stick to what Liu says and try to practice what he says but its very hard. Liu even says "One should go along with what one desires and should gradually bring it from disharmony to harmony." Now it's all well and good in the text but how would one begin with doing that? It's so true, and right in front of me but i can't fathom it. Tao Te Ching says a master appears when the student is ready. Well how am I going to be ready?

 

Any practice or techniques I may use would be my own mindset and it will only put me into more confusion. My friend almost tried doing that when he went to China and he was internally devastated as how he did not understand any of it. We can't fathom true from false and any attempt at practicing something would be giving up ones strength.

 

I have never shared this with anyone through the medium of internet and I am thinking would I get screwed over for this or will I get some knowledge to break through my ignorance? I am open to a good discussion guys.

 

Thanks

 

If you can find one in the meantime, I might suggest looking into a Zen dojo, especially if the head monk learned in East Asia. The style is very plain and won't lead you all in this and that way. It might be a good sanctuary to prepare you. You'll probably find some similarities to the instructions of Liu I Ming. It's not Taoism, but the roots are close.

 

Thanks for the book list. I didn't know about the I Ching commentaries. I think the shorter books are mostly in Vitality Energy Spirit. I'll have to pick up Understanding Reality. I hadn't done so mostly because I wanted to focus on The Book of Balance and Harmony, which I'm sure you would also like and/or already have.

[Guest munky]

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Edited October 23, 2014 by munky

[fatguyslim]

No don't sound so desperate as you even said liu struggled so it definitely isn't easy. You need to resolve karma and everything and inevitably go through many experiences or struggle and even though you were doing the wrong thing, once you realise, you learn from these experiences which is why they are necessary if you are to cultivate the tao. If your focus is on tao and virtue alone and have faith in it you will not be confused or sidetracked by practices or techniques not suitable for you. Rather, the practice that should be done is letting go and learning to not resist change at all levels. There are numerous practices that can achieve this, since it is all about what is happening internally, not any "technique". The only way this could be of your own mindset is if you are forcing it and you should learn to recognise when you are using your own mindset and when you are not.

In order to do this, and to understand what to do and follow the tao te ching or anything, you should stop worrying about yourself and finding a teacher and what will happen to you if you dont find the right teacher and how you should go about cultivating the tao. i believe it is mentioned that it all begins with refining the self and not attaching to your own self but properly practicing virtue and compassion, and through this you will learn to not use your human mind which will lead you into confusion. Don't ask how am i going to be ready, just do what you want while not attaching to yourself. Be not resisting change happening right now and stop worrying about the future. It doesn't matter if you practice something because if your mind isn't sidetracked from tao and virtue by any desire or passion for anything other, you won't be led to do a false practice and you will see if a practice isn't suitable for you. Since you have read those books ,you have an idea.

You are cultivating 24/7 so don't be scared to seek out a teacher or any practice. You don't have to go all the way to china as it mostly depends or yourself, not anything else. The practice is merely a deeper focused extension of your cultivation that can help you work through blocks you may have, so don't make a distinction between your everyday life and your "practice".

Basically, you are practicing all the time so constant refinement of the self. The actual "practice" qigong /meditation/tai chi helps you do this. Any is fine as long as it is the internal state of letting go, of a pure and tranquil mind and spirit that is most important. Thats why its asolute non-resistance. If you aren't doing that then you yourself are making it false practice.

There may be many teachers and even if it wasn't the right teacher, you will learn from the teacher and reflecting on this, anything that will increase your understanding, so you are more "ready" and maybe bring you closer to the true knowledge. You are overthinking this finding the true teacher, who knows how many teachers you will find before? This is the work of your mindset already that is bringing you into confusion

 

I totally agree with you my friend but it also says in text that one small mistake can set you off into more confusion. Now I am not scared of confusion or I am scared of failing along the way. I don't know the true arena of failing where after failing I could learn from it. Its like I am in constant turmoil sometimes but sometimes clarity is off the roof (it could be my true yang rising or could be a layer of my human mind only a teacher can fathom that out). I know that finding a teacher is not gonna happen overnight or if its ever gonna happen in the usual way. You are bang on when you say about the virtue, how true virtue is when there is no self involved so I am going to practice that. Thanks for your help my friend I am definitely work on this issue.

[exorcist_1699]

Liu Yi Ming's(劉一明) best book , also his most famous one , in fact, is called "Arguments on cutlivating the truth " (修真辯難) . The book is also one of the few best Taoist writings ever written in the Ching Dynasty . Maybe only 2 or 3 other writings in the same legacy can claim equal to or better than it . For examples: the famous " Chanting the truth of Tao"("唱道真言" );

 

Significance of the "Argument" is that through a conversation between a sifu and his disciples, happened one night in the late 18th century on a high mountain in the Gansu Province , Liu explained to us nearly all Taoist jargons in an explicit and precise way that never had other Taoists writers done before; Liu , as a master who is familiar with Buddhism , Confucian ,Taoism and I Ching ,and gets very great achievement in Taoist alchemy, of course can illuminates those concepts in a much indepth way that hardly others can match. Here, I just raise few of the important and repeatedly mentioned ones :

 

1) 玉液還丹

2) 坤方不死人

3) 金公

4) 生殺盗機

5) 上德下德

 

These concepts, keys they are , unfortunately only known to very few of the Western readers .

 

When we compare the book to his contemporaries' , say the Wu-Liu(伍柳) School's writings, , Liu 's(劉) looks superior in the senses that its explanations of Taoist alchemy are clearer , more coherent and systematic . By saying so , it does't necessarily mean Liu Yi Ming's gong is higher than Liu Huan Yang's(柳華陽) ( both are unmarried for whole life,but Liu Hua Yang becomes a monk when he was just a boy..)

Edited June 9, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here, I just raise few of the important and repeatedly mentioned ones :

 

1) 玉液還丹

2) 坤方不死人

3) 金公

4) 生殺盗機

5) 上德下德

 

These concepts, keys they are , unfortunately only known to very few of the Western readers .

 

 

are there English equivalents for these terms you might share?

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[fatguyslim]

Liu Yi Ming's(劉一明) best book , also his most famous one , in fact, is called "Arguments on cutlivating the truth " (修真辯難) . The book is also one of the few best Taoist writings ever written in the Ching Dynasty . Maybe only 2 or 3 other writings in the same legacy can claim equal to or better than it . For examples: the famous " Chanting the truth of Tao"("唱道真言" );

 

Significance of the "Argument" is that through a conversation between a sifu and his disciples, happened one night in the late 18th century on a high mountain in the Gansu Province , Liu explained to us nearly all Taoist jargons in an explicit and precise way that never had other Taoists writers done before; Liu , as a master who is familiar with Buddhism , Confucian ,Taoism and I Ching ,and gets very great achievement in Taoist alchemy, of course can illuminates those concepts in a much indepth way that hardly others can match. Here, I just raise few of the important and repeatedly mentioned ones :

 

1) 玉液還丹

2) 坤方不死人

3) 金公

4) 生殺盗機

5) 上德下德

 

These concepts, keys they are , unfortunately only known to very few of the Western readers .

 

When we compare the book to his contemporaries' , say the Wu-Liu(伍柳) School's writings, , Liu 's(劉) looks superior in the senses that its explanations of Taoist alchemy are clearer , more coherent and systematic . By saying so , it does't necessarily mean Liu Yi Ming's gong is higher than Liu Huan Yang's(柳華陽) ( both are unmarried for whole life,but Liu Hua Yang becomes a monk when he was just a boy..)

 

This comment blew me away the most... I have never heard of these books and I have no idea how to get hold of them either? If anyone reading this post has these books can you please share it with us or at least share a link as to where we can get them? I believe these texts have not been translated in English if yes then who translated them? Any information on these texts would be a blessing man.

[fatguyslim]

I want to add that Liu I Ming was/is part of the Longmenpai.

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Liu_Yiming

 

You may ask them specific Question to clarify the things you have read so far.

 

Q

 

Man I am not sure if they will answer to my questions? I don't even know who to ask the questions? By the way what may help are these books mentioned above by exorcist_1699. Have you had any luck finding them? I found the Chinese text but not the translation. Cheers

[johndoe2012]

Man I am not sure if they will answer to my questions? I don't even know who to ask the questions? By the way what may help are these books mentioned above by exorcist_1699. Have you had any luck finding them? I found the Chinese text but not the translation. Cheers

 

what's the link for the chinese text?

[exorcist_1699]

are there English equivalents for these terms you might share?

Although quite difficult , I try to give literal translations for those possible:

 

2)The immortal person on Kun side;

3)The Golden Old man;

4) To live and to kill; Making use of the chance secretly;

5)The superb virtue; the inferior virtue;

 

Any of the above jargons is a big topic, so I only choose the second one,"the Immortal Person on Kun side " to explain, in Liu's own words in the book "Arguments on cultivating the truth ":

 

( My translation)

 

A disciple asked: " Pre-heavenly qi is formless and invisible , once we lost it, how can we re-capture it ?"

 

The sifu answered: " All the secrets of Taoist alchemy lies here. So secret it is to be safeguarded that , inversely it makes the Taoist legacy nearly lost . Isn't it true that when you lose an object, you go back to the place it is lost to find ? The loss of the pre-heavenly qi is due to the rise of Yin, so you go back to the pace where Yin arises to find it ; In fact, it is already there ; it is unnecssary to go other places to find it. As the I-Ching says: ' No need to go far away to search for it , it is already inside of you , yet dependent on how well you polish your own virtue.'

 

Anyway, in order to grasp the pre-heavenly qi, the key lies in our capability of meeting the right Person; without this Person, hardly can our pre-heavenly qi return. As a Taoist master said:

 

' Taoist medicine of immortality comes from the South West, which is called the location Kun . In order to locate it , we have to rely on the right Person . So clearly I have told you this, you should memorize it; what I am afraid is that even when you come across Him in future , you don't recognse Him.'

 

In fact, without the keys provided by their sifu, hardly can people recognice that Person. "

 

 

(Translation ends)

Edited June 10, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Reply to Fatguyslim:

 

In order to find and read all Liu Yi Ming 's works , you can go to a famous Chinese Taoist website :

 

www. Xiulian.com

 

then try to find and click 内丹典籍, then click 道书十二种 ; all his writings are there;

 

Unfortunately they are all in Chinese.

Edited June 10, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[fatguyslim]

what's the link for the chinese text?

 

http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n85-331645

 

I think this link shares all the knowledge that Liu shared with the world. I can' believe how lucky you are mate... I sometimes think that without learning Chinese I wont get anywhere!

[fatguyslim]

Although quite difficult , I try to give literal translations for those possible:

 

2)The immortal person on Kun side;

3)The Golden Old man;

4) To live and to kill; Making use of the chance secretly;

5)The superb virtue; the inferior virtue;

 

Any of the above jargons is a big topic, so I only choose the second one,"the Immortal Person on Kun side " to explain, in Liu's own words in the book "Arguments on cultivating the truth ":

 

( My translation)

 

A disciple asked: " Pre-heavenly qi is formless and invisible , once we lost it, how can we re-capture it ?"

 

The sifu answered: " All the secrets of Taoist alchemy lies here. So secret it is to be safeguarded that , inversely it makes the Taoist legacy nearly lost . Isn't it true that when you lose an object, you go back to the place it is lost to find ? The loss of the pre-heavenly qi is due to the rise of Yin, so you go back to the pace where Yin arises to find it ; In fact, it is already there ; it is unnecssary to go other places to find it. As the I-Ching says: ' No need to go far away to search for it , it is already inside of you , yet dependent on how well you polish your own virtue.'

 

Anyway, in order to grasp the pre-heavenly qi, the key lies in our capability of meeting the right Person; without this Person, hardly can our pre-heavenly qi return. As a Taoist master said:

 

' Taoist medicine of immortality comes from the South West, which is called the location Kun . In order to locate it , we have to rely on the right Person . So clearly I have told you this, you should memorize it; what I am afraid is that even when you come across Him in future , you don't recognse Him.'

 

In fact, without the keys provided by their sifu, hardly can people recognice that Person. "

 

 

(Translation ends)

 

I am so moved by these sayings mate, they hit me at my core and wakes me up. Can you please send me a pivate message with your email address or skype I WOULD LOVE TO SPEAK WITH YOU MATE. You are good translator and I humbly ask for your kind help in this path. I have no Chinese background (which I sincerely wish I did), I don't even know where to start. This blew me away the most "Isn't it true that when you lose an object, you go back to the place it is lost to find?" you are good at this man. I look forward to your reply. Thanks

[johndoe2012]

http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n85-331645

 

I think this link shares all the knowledge that Liu shared with the world. I can' believe how lucky you are mate... I sometimes think that without learning Chinese I wont get anywhere!

 

oh, I don't know Chinese, it was just for reference if I ever get interested in learning.

 

Anyway, I wonder if Fabrizio at goldenelixir.com could help translate Liu I-Ming's writings.

[fatguyslim]

oh, I don't know Chinese, it was just for reference if I ever get interested in learning.

 

Anyway, I wonder if Fabrizio at goldenelixir.com could help translate Liu I-Ming's writings.

 

Aye I agree with you someone really needs to translate this or I will spend all my life learning Chinese and then one day translate it lol.

[exorcist_1699]

I am so moved by these sayings mate, they hit me at my core and wakes me up. Can you please send me a pivate message with your email address or skype I WOULD LOVE TO SPEAK WITH YOU MATE. You are good translator and I humbly ask for your kind help in this path. I have no Chinese background (which I sincerely wish I did), I don't even know where to start. This blew me away the most "Isn't it true that when you lose an object, you go back to the place it is lost to find?" you are good at this man. I look forward to your reply. Thanks

 

As I am repeatedly asked by some readers /members here about my role on this forum , my answer is as before that I am just playing a role of a translator, translating some inaccessible Taoist materials from Chinese to English. If you find some of my ideas great, it is the original people who spoke them that are great, not me.

 

Anyway, you can keep sending me messages here, in public or private way; and, if I am capable , I will try answering them.

[fatguyslim]

As I am repeatedly asked by some readers /members here about my role on this forum , my answer is as before that I am just playing a role of a translator, translating some inaccessible Taoist materials from Chinese to English. If you find some of my ideas great, it is the original people who spoke them that are great, not me.

 

Anyway, you can keep sending me messages here, in public or private way; and, if I am capable , I will try answering them.

 

The thing is man you will find it absolutely soul destroying if I asked you to translate the whole text. I have a habit of reading the whole text and what you did there was a glimpse of how amazing the whole text would be. Its just that I am unsure how to go about this to be honest.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

As I am repeatedly asked by some readers /members here about my role on this forum , my answer is as before that I am just playing a role of a translator, translating some inaccessible Taoist materials from Chinese to English. If you find some of my ideas great, it is the original people who spoke them that are great, not me.

 

Anyway, you can keep sending me messages here, in public or private way; and, if I am capable , I will try answering them.

 

Thanks for the responses, and translation!

 

Do you know much about the Book of Balance and Harmony? I was reading the introduction again yesterday and noticed that it said a large portion of the book is from Understanding Reality. For some reason I thought Understanding Reality was from a different school, but this would suggest that Liu I Ming's teaching is also in The Book of Balance and Harmony. I thought this book was much older than 18th century.

 

So a few questions then

Is the whole of Understanding Reality in this book?

I did not see any mention of the original authors in the Cleary translation. Do you know who is being quoted?

 

I found the use of I Ching for explaning internal alchemy in it to be especially unique. Was this from Liu I Ming? Are there other English-translated works that do this? For example "take the yang from water trigram (kidneys) to fill the middle of the fire (heart) trigram."

H E