Liu I-Ming 18th century Taoist Adept

[Wondo]

3 hours ago, Wondo said:

In re-reading some of Liu Yiming material, it appears that he is not supporting any of the internal work that we would find in many of the classics. 

Lifeforce, this is why I said the above. I am not in disagreement with you. I am discovering this. I had read in some material and some discussions that I had with others that LYM was writing to an audience that had already attained Neidan and was going beyond it. I was not aware that he had done it and it had done nothing for him.

No need to bang your head against the wall, just read my thread more carefully. :-) 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Wondo

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, Wondo said:

I meant a modern classic for Neidan. It is not cryptic. Pretty easy to follow.  Others here would agree. 

No 

[freeform]

When you take a physics class at university they’ll tell you everything you learned in high school physics is rubbish. Context is everything.

 

But you certainly wouldn’t be taking university level physics if you didn’t learn it in high school.

 

 

[Wondo]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

No 

That text is easy to understand, not sure why you would disagree. 

[Mudfoot]

Just now, Wondo said:

That text is easy to understand, not sure why you would disagree. 

Because I don't understand it? 

 

[Wondo]

23 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Because I don't understand it? 

 

Okay. Fair enough. 

[Wondo]

For those here that have argued that LYM does not believe in cultivation of the physical and only the cultivation of the spiritual, here is a document that will hopefully clear things up.... https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/49412887/PREGADIO__Discriminations_in_Cultivating_the_Tao.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1551649823&Signature=CI0YEzQL6ZILnzpxdWrhSxfAXqc%3D&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B filename%3DDiscriminations_in_Cultivating_the_Tao_L.pdf

 

 

[Mudfoot]

9 hours ago, Wondo said:

For those here that have argued that LYM does not believe in cultivation of the physical and only the cultivation of the spiritual, 

Since we have established that I have a nei dan reading Impairment, can you please quote the part when LYM states that cultivation of the physical in it self leads to an Awakening to reality?

[lifeforce]

13 hours ago, Wondo said:

Lifeforce, this is why I said the above. I am not in disagreement with you.

 

Yet you continue to pursue this 'physical cultivation' route. 

 

[kondensation]

10 hours ago, Wondo said:

For those here that have argued that LYM does not believe in cultivation of the physical and only the cultivation of the spiritual, here is a document that will hopefully clear things up.... https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/49412887/PREGADIO__Discriminations_in_Cultivating_the_Tao.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1551649823&Signature=CI0YEzQL6ZILnzpxdWrhSxfAXqc%3D&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B filename%3DDiscriminations_in_Cultivating_the_Tao_L.pdf

 

 

Link isn't working?

[Wondo]

Try this https://www.academia.edu/6581869/Discriminations_in_Cultivating_the_Tao_Liu_Yiming_1734_1821_and_His_Xiuzhen_houbian

[Wondo]

3 hours ago, lifeforce said:

 

Yet you continue to pursue this 'physical cultivation' route. 

 

I do both simultaneously. 

[Wondo]

4 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Since we have established that I have a nei dan reading Impairment, can you please quote the part when LYM states that cultivation of the physical in it self leads to an Awakening to reality?

https://www.academia.edu/6581869/Discriminations_in_Cultivating_the_Tao_Liu_Yiming_1734_1821_and_His_Xiuzhen_houbian

[Mudfoot]

I thought so. 

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, lifeforce said:

'physical cultivation'

whats dat?

[Wondo]

7 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Since we have established that I have a nei dan reading Impairment, can you please quote the part when LYM states that cultivation of the physical in it self leads to an Awakening to reality?

"Nature and Existence must be cultivated together, but in the practice there should be two stages." (Discriminations, ch. 19, "Superior and Inferior Virtue," 31b-32a).

"Those who are able to follow the way of superior virtue perform the two stages simultaneously." ( Pregadio).

"Therefore the way of superior virtue attains both stages simultaneously by means of "non-doing." Inferior virute, instead, is the gradual way:Internal Alchemy enables one first to reover the True Seed of the Elixir by "doing," and then to nourish it by "non-doing." Dispite the difference between these two ways of cultivation, Liu Yiming adds an important remark:when both stages of inferior virtue are fulfilled, "then this road has ledto the same destination as superior virtue."(Fabrizio commenting on - Discriminations, ch. 19 "Superior and Inferior Virtue," 31a).

Edited March 4, 2019 by Wondo

[Wondo]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

whats dat?

What LYM would call inferior Virtue. 

[Wondo]

I know that LYM talking about cultivating Nature (Xing) and Existence (Ming) together may sound something like if we just sit in stillness and are not moved by desires and overcome the tendency to be drawn in a miriad of directions that what will happen is that by doing so, that everything will return to our original nature. That may be like the Bodhisattva in the Heart Sutra that knows that all five skandhas are empty but yet still functions in this world. The Bodhisattva knows the nature of reality, yet is still in reality. The superior virute is where one has not fallen from the precelestial and so works on guarding that. Whereas the inferior virtue has fallen from the precelestial and enters in to the postcelestial and so must engage in doing. What LYM is warning about is not to get caught into thinking that by "doing" that you are using the body to do so as if in the body, there is contained something that can return to the precelestial. This is like in the Heart Sutra knowing that there are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind, but yet right here in this moment there are eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. LYM is warning against getting attached to these ideas of the Elixir being contained in any of the five aggregates. My take on this is that if you are practicing the inferior virtue method, by restoring your orignal nature and restoring the Elixir, it is done so in the knowledge that ultimately, this does not exist in any physical location. It is a spiritual process. But a spirtual process can also be a physical process. They are not two. LYM says they are not three, they are one. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Wondo

[Wondo]

If you are of inferior virtue (most of us mere mortals are) then you must do something. Don't sit around blindly. Because LYM was heavily influenced by Confucious thought, the method involves correcting our mistakes and to cultivate virtue in our actions. Because he is a Taoist and comes from the alchemical tradition, this is both a physical and spiritual activity. Here Qian and Kun restore their righful place. 

[Mudfoot]

See! 

More fun when you write, instead of just posting a link. 

 

If you see his list of misunderstanding of what "doing" is, that sort of covers a majority of the physical methods I have ever heard of. 

 

So there is a secret way of "doing", which is a physical activity, but differs from that list? 

 

Must be the secret Ming method of Wu-Liu Pai that we heard of a couple of years ago. 

[Wondo]

6 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

See! 

More fun when you write, instead of just posting a link. 

 

If you see his list of misunderstanding of what "doing" is, that sort of covers a majority of the physical methods I have ever heard of. 

 

So there is a secret way of "doing", which is a physical activity, but differs from that list? 

 

Must be the secret Ming method of Wu-Liu Pai that we heard of a couple of years ago. 

I posted a link above. Again, "more fun" when you do not read. Also, if you cultivate being virtous, which is mentioned in his methods, that involves activity doesn it not???

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Wondo

[Mudfoot]

8 minutes ago, Wondo said:

I posted a link above. Again, "more fun" when you do not read. Also, if you cultivate being virtous, which is mentioned in his methods, that involves activity doesn it not???

 

I followed the link. 

 

My understanding was that we were talking about any versions of the super secret lets breathe and circulate heated stuff through your system kind of physical methods. 

Obviously you have something else in mind. 

Then we are discussing different things, no wonder this goes bad. 

Mudfoot out. 

[Wondo]

I appreciate it. You followed the link, if you get a chance read it. It lays out a lot of stuff. 

[lifeforce]

4 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

I followed the link. 

 

My understanding was that we were talking about any versions of the super secret lets breathe and circulate heated stuff through your system kind of physical methods. 

Obviously you have something else in mind. 

Then we are discussing different things, no wonder this goes bad. 

Mudfoot out. 

 

Same here. I thought by physical practices we were talking about imaginary energy circulation, dantien, breathing methods. 

I must apologise if I've been out of order.

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by lifeforce

[Wondo]

1 minute ago, lifeforce said:

 

Same here. I thought by physical practices we were talking about imaginary energy circulation, dantien, breathing methods. 

 

And if you do not do any of those things, how do you cultivate?