Liu I-Ming 18th century Taoist Adept

[lifeforce]

4 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I might have to go back to him then. 

 

The Taoist I Ching contains everything you need to know. I can't recommend it enough. 

There are several Ch'an masters who speak of exactly the same thing only using different terminology. You just have to divorce yourself from the Daoist/Buddhist labelling.

 

 

[Wondo]

What do you mean that it has everything you need to know? 

 

Just to be clear, everything that LYM says, resonates very much so with my practice (coming from a long Zen background and re-embracing Taoist practice, LYM makes the most sense). However, one thing I thought that has been missing was an emphasis on the physical body in Zen practice, so I have really started ramping up my Taiji and QiGong practice (within reason) and this got me started in to doing some internal alchemical practice, but not sure if this is all necessary. 

[Mudfoot]

16 minutes ago, Wondo said:

 

However, one thing I thought that has been missing was an emphasis on the physical body in Zen practice,

While Shaolin kept that, many other Chan/Zen traditions focused on the Mind, in Japan there was interaction with the Bushi, but that wasn’t the same as the traditional chinese internal methods. 

16 minutes ago, Wondo said:

and this got me started in to doing some internal alchemical practice, but not sure if this is all necessary. 

There is a debate on that. 

Pick a side😁. 

My tradition says yes, but that doesn't say it is true. 

[OldDog]

16 hours ago, Wondo said:

... but not sure if this is all necessary. 

 

Necessary to what?  That's your real question. You have to decide what is important to you and set a long range goal ... at least a temporary goal that will provide direction. 

 

My own belief is that body, mind and spirit are so closely related that for practical purposes they cannot be distinguished. From that perspective some sort of physical practice seems necessary to the balance of the whole being. From your post, I think you are intuitively aware of that ... which might just be the best form of awareness.

 

There is a strong argument to be made regarding the purpose of life, the role of consciousness of that purpose and the nature of practice and being that supports that purpose. The balance is different for everyone.

 

Your Zen practice is closely related to Daoist methods and, as you have discovered, can easily inform your perspective on Dao. Still, there are differences. I would suggest that you take up the study of the Daodejing ... choose a couple of good reputable translations ... and work through them slowly. Also, look into some earlier Daoist works. The Neiye can be very informative of daoist meditative practice without getting too involved technical terminology associated with alchemy. It can ... at least for me it did ... help fill in the gap between meditative and physical practice. And don't give up on the physical practice of qigong and taiji. 

[lifeforce]

18 hours ago, Wondo said:

What do you mean that it has everything you need to know? 

 

Just to be clear, everything that LYM says, resonates very much so with my practice (coming from a long Zen background and re-embracing Taoist practice, LYM makes the most sense). However, one thing I thought that has been missing was an emphasis on the physical body in Zen practice, so I have really started ramping up my Taiji and QiGong practice (within reason) and this got me started in to doing some internal alchemical practice, but not sure if this is all necessary. 

 

LYM is very close to Ch'an and obviously, Zen. That's because he was affiliated with the Clear Serene branch of the Complete Reality school. A school which incorporates Buddhist thought.

There's also nothing wrong with cultivating the 'physical body'. It should be a major requirement of anyone following the Way.

Just be aware not to lump it in with Daoist Alchemy. They're separate entities.

 

[Wondo]

Thank you. I have been working with SGF lately and that seems to be focusing on the upper Dan and I do not know how this fully fits in with alchemy. 

[Mudfoot]

That would depend on who you ask. 

Begin with reading every post by voidisyinyang. 

 

And then ask anyone else, randomly😁

Edited March 1, 2019 by Mudfoot
Made a voidisyinyang-joke

[lifeforce]

23 minutes ago, Wondo said:

Thank you. I have been working with SGF lately and that seems to be focusing on the upper Dan and I do not know how this fully fits in with alchemy. 

 

Alchemy, of the spiritual nature, is the change from ordinary consciousness, to a higher form of consciousness resulting in illumination or enlightenment. This is not a once-only significant event in one's life as is commonly conveyed. It can, and does, happen many times per day. Adapting to whatever circumstances life throws at you and acting in a virtuous manner is the core of Daoist Internal Alchemy. 

That's why I place great importance on the I Ching as a philosophical book. It is a mirror to your mind and of all the possibilities of thought, meditation and introspection.

Change is the only constant.

[Wondo]

1 hour ago, lifeforce said:

 

Alchemy, of the spiritual nature, is the change from ordinary consciousness, to a higher form of consciousness resulting in illumination or enlightenment. This is not a once-only significant event in one's life as is commonly conveyed. It can, and does, happen many times per day. Adapting to whatever circumstances life throws at you and acting in a virtuous manner is the core of Daoist Internal Alchemy. 

That's why I place great importance on the I Ching as a philosophical book. It is a mirror to your mind and of all the possibilities of thought, meditation and introspection.

Change is the only constant.

Thank you for this. I am very familiar with the I Ching. Do my best to work with it everyday. 

[kondensation]

I just ordered one of his books, Awakening to the Tao translated by Cleary.

[kyoji]

On February 25, 2019 at 12:38 PM, Taoist Texts said:

In Shangqin or Lingbao it might have been so, yes

LYM was Quanzhen. For those maniacs, once you blew your chance in this lifetime, its game over.

It just might)

Can you clear up how one blows their chance exactly ?

 

btw.. GREAT thread, my friends.

Edited March 1, 2019 by kyoji

[Taoist Texts]

17 minutes ago, kyoji said:

Can you clear up how one blows their chance 

No secret method - no chance

[lifeforce]

I advice my companions on the Way: Establish an enduring commitment and maintain a steady mind; remove errant thoughts and give prominence to the undertaking of Nature and Existence; inquire into the principles of creation and transformation with an unwavering mind.

 

Liu Yiming - Cultivating the Tao

[lifeforce]

1 hour ago, kondensation said:

I just ordered one of his books, Awakening to the Tao translated by Cleary.

 

Excellent choice. Welcome to the world of Liu I Ming.

[Wondo]

Also, may want to read Cultivating the Tao by LYM trans by F. Pregadio

Good read. If you want to see how LYM commented on Zhang Boduan, then read Understanding Reality. Cleary's translation is good and so is F. Pregadio as a compare and contrast. If you get F. Pregadio's translation then his Foundations of Internal Alchemy is a good way to see the missing foundational pieces that is already assumed you have when you start practicing the direction of Understanding Reality. 

[lifeforce]

How uncanny ! I was just about to recommend Golden Elixir Press.

Thanks

[Wondo]

7 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

How uncanny ! I was just about to recommend Golden Elixir Press.

Thanks

Yeah. The Foundations of Internal Alchemy is kind of a laborius read. It is not long, but it is putting all of the pieces together of how Understanding Reality and the parts that are already expected to have occured in previous practice leading up to it all jive together. It is challenging for me because I come from the cultivating the mind first with my years of Zen practice and now interested in the cultivating the body part of it. I know in reality they are not two, but both are necessary in my opinion. You just don't arrive at it some day, you have to keep cultivating it. The Tao is alive, not dead, it moves and so one must also keep moving. 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Setting the foundation is the physical work, countless methods. Without physical conditioning, eliminating illness and uncomfort within one's body there is no way to endure stillness and solitude in nature.

 

LYM ia a true master of the direct method which does not involve methods, the beginning, setting the foundation. once one method is mastered it is forgotten. There are 49 barriers one must pass . If you try to enter a gate and you still have problems like bad character, emotional issues, unresolved matters you can not get through the gate but you can try again.

 

After one has comprehended the methods, the passageway and thoroughfare, return and commence laying a foundation by exercising one’s self. Even people with great destiny and great fortune need 3-5-9 years. Some may even need 30-50 years, some people may even need longer. Some people say ‘in one hundred days one can lay a foundation’, what a joke. It is even better to say seven days is sufficient; this is an example and a process. Anyone saying they can open the small or large cosmic orbit in one hundred days, has lost it. There is no need as the meridian circulation is already unimpeded, otherwise people would be turned into vegetables.

 

The 2nd and 3rd step are easily attained and achieved. This is the healthcare and longevity content on the level of society’s masses. Step 4 and 5 depend on one’s destiny. Of all of the steps, the 1st step is the most difficult. If one does not have the gong-skill of having exercised one’s self to lay a foundation. wishing to ascend to heaven and becoming an immortal, becoming a Buddha, becoming a divine person, it is truly like building a high rise on sand, like filling broth into a bamboo strainer, fools speaking nonsense,

 

Any way, Thank You LYM, I talk too much

 

[Wondo]

In re-reading some of Liu Yiming material, it appears that he is not supporting any of the internal work that we would find in many of the classics. For example, in the book a lot of us tend to go to as a good clear guide, Luk’s Taoist Yoga, it would appear that LYM would not advocate any of that, or that he assumes one has already done this?? A little confused about this, not because I don’t understand the material, but because when reading this stuff one tends to be required to know how to look beyond cryptic messages, but LYM sees to be emphatically say ain’t that the methods of working with a “physical” elixir, etc. is not the way to awakening. 

[Mudfoot]

33 minutes ago, Wondo said:

 

it would appear that LYM would not advocate any of that, or that he assumes one has already done this??

I believe he states he did all of that himself, for decades, and that it was insufficient to Awaken to the Dao. 

Quote

A little confused about this, 

It's Nei Dan after all, or in this case the great dao of ming and xing..... 

Quote

 

 

[lifeforce]

57 minutes ago, Wondo said:

For example, in the book a lot of us tend to go to as a good clear guide, Luk’s Taoist Yoga

 

A good clear guide ? It's one of the most cryptic things I've ever tried to read. I couldn't understand it. Definitely not a classic. I would define the classics as the Yijing, DDJ, Zhuangzi, Liezi, Neiye. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by lifeforce

[Taoist Texts]

On 3/2/2019 at 4:52 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Some people say ‘in one hundred days one can lay a foundation’, what a joke.

LYM is known for his zingers

[Wondo]

45 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

 

A good clear guide ? It's one of the most cryptic things I've ever tried to read. I couldn't understand it. Definitely not a classic. I would define the classics as the Yijing, DDJ, Zhuangzi, Liezi, Neiye. 

I meant a modern classic for Neidan. It is not cryptic. Pretty easy to follow.  Others here would agree. 

[lifeforce]

As stated earlier in the thread, LYM never mentions the word 'Neidan' in any of his many works. Nor does he equate physical practices or imaginary energy movements with his teachings.

I feel as if I'm banging my head against a wall here.

[Wondo]

45 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

 

A good clear guide ? It's one of the most cryptic things I've ever tried to read. I couldn't understand it. Definitely not a classic. I would define the classics as the Yijing, DDJ, Zhuangzi, Liezi, Neiye. 

I meant a modern classic for Neidan. It is not cryptic. Pretty easy to follow.  Others here would agree.