What is ATP...?

[ChiDragon]

Those who practice Chi Kung were assuming breathing some kind of energy into the body. Have you ever think about the energy was actually generated, inside the body, by the oxygen that breathe in reacted with the glucose....???

[templetao]

When you eat the bcca(branched chain animo acid) arginine it breaks down to creatine monohydrate which breaks down to creatine triprosphate, creatine trioprospate is broken down to adenine trioprosphate (atp) when atp is broken down it creates a spark. This spark lets your muscles continue to function longer. This is how the supplement creatine works you can buy the bcca arginine which is a safer way to get atp plus arginine also gets the ammonia out of your system which is produced when you workout. So when you do condensing breathing your actually oxidizing your blood and creating atp. When I first started training my sifu at that time had me read books on biology, science and so on. Most athletes take creatine when it is safter to take the bcca that breaks done to atp which is aginine.

 

Being a badass is hardwork my Sifu would say better do your homework.

Edited June 8, 2011 by templetao

[Non]

yea I think according to TCM theory spleen yang might have to do with that the generation of postnatal qi using the air we breathe, the oxygen and other gaseous materials. Of course the airs we breathe the waters we take in, the foods we eat, whatever else we take in, "energy potential transference" contributes in the expression of "qi".

 

But is that all really qi? Is it just the animating energy of the body? Then there are different levels of that energy called jing qi and shen with differing "densities" so..

Edited June 8, 2011 by Non

[ChiDragon]

Can you share links to any informative info about ATP? Here's a Roger Jahnke article: Physiological Effects of Qigong (PDF)

Gladly......

1. http://www.trueorigin.org/atp.asp

2. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/articles/scni2a6.htm

3. http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/N100/2k4ch7respirationnotes.html

4. http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/C/CellularRespiration.html#36

Edited June 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Scientific Explanation of Chi Kung No. 3 - The Biochemical-Mechanical Loop

 

Although there are many styles in Chi Kung, but there is one commonality. If we observed closely, we will see that breathing is in synchronization with the slow body movements. The combination of the breathing and movements is a biochemical-mechanical loop for completing the muscle contraction process. The muscle contraction requires energy. Thus, it raises the question where does the energy come from?

 

The muscle tissue consists of body cells. The muscle get the energy from the cells. Within the cell, there are organelles called mitochondria. Mitochondria are the power generators of the cell; using oxygen converting the glucose into the chemical energy. The chemical energy is adenosine triphorsphate(ATP) which powers the cell's metabolic activities. Hence the conversion of ATP from glucose requires the oxygen from breathing, the metabolic process is called cell respiration.

 

The ATP is used in any reaction we do that needs biological energy, such as breathing, heart beating, nerve message transmission and even lifting weights. ATP can be generated from two sources of oxygen. Hence, there are two processes for energy production depend on the sources. Anaerobic respiration uses the oxygen stored in muscles, in small quantity, can only produce a small amount of energy for one time; and aerobic respiration uses the oxygen from breathing which can generate a large amount of energy constantly.

 

There are only a small amount of oxygen stored in the muscles. When there is insufficient supply of oxygen in the blood, anaerobic respiration will use the stored amount to produce two molecules of ATP causing oxygen debt. Anaerobic respiration is the worse situation for the body to be in. It is because, with the absence of oxygen, the glucose is converted into lactic acid causing pain and fatigue in the muscles. However, anaerobic respiration only occurs in strenuous exercise.

 

In Chi Kung, anaerobic respiration will never take place inside the human body. The abdominal breathing method always provide a constant source of oxygen for aerobic respiration. The slow movement causing slight muscle contraction by utilizing the biochemical energy(ATP) produced by the mitochondria. Therefore, the biochemical-mechanical loop can be represented by the formula below:

 

Glucose + Ob + Om => H20 + CO2 + Heat + Energy

Ob is the oxygen we breathe into the lungs for aerobic respiration. Om is the small amount of oxygen stored in the muscles to be used for anaerobic respiration.

Energy is the number of ATP, in molecules, a dependent of oxygen.

 

Ob at the left of the formula indicates that the more oxygen we breathe in, the more Energy will be produced at the right. Only Chi Kung can accomplish this condition. The stored Om in muscles were never being used because there are no oxygen debt in Chi Kung practice due to the abdominal breathing method.

 

In strenuous exercise such as sprints, at the lactic threshold, the heart beats too fast. The heart contracts before the blood were filled completely. Therefore, there are not enough oxygen collected by the blood from the lungs for all the body cells. Due to the lack of oxygen(Ob), anaerobic respiration used the small amount of Om stored in the muscles. The formula becomes:

 

Glucose + Om => H20 + CO2 + Heat + Energy

 

The aerobic respiration can no longer take place to generate any more ATP until the oxygen(Om) was paid back to the muscles and breathing returned to normal. The glucose cannot breakdown to produce ATP without oxygen. Therefore, it was converted into lactic acid.

 

Ref: http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Scientific_Explanation_of_Chi_Kung_No_3_-_The_Biochemical-mechanical_Loop.html

Edited June 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

When you eat the bcca(branched chain animo acid) arginine it breaks down to creatine monohydrate which breaks down to creatine triprosphate, creatine trioprospate is broken down to adenine trioprosphate (atp) when atp is broken down it creates a spark. This spark lets your muscles continue to function longer. This is how the supplement creatine works you can buy the bcca arginine which is a safer way to get atp plus arginine also gets the ammonia out of your system which is produced when you workout. So when you do condensing breathing your actually oxidizing your blood and creating atp. When I first started training my sifu at that time had me read books on biology, science and so on. Most athletes take creatine when it is safter to take the bcca that breaks done to atp which is aginine.

 

Being a badass is hardwork my Sifu would say better do your homework.

 

I looked up some info on bbca

 

http://www.cps.org.tw/docs/%28Vol54%20No2E%29%20Article%201.pdf

 

looks like the study shows it is good to reduce fatigue after a workout.

 

Any idea if it can be used just as a general supplement? Or would that result in becoming a huge bear of some sort?

[ChiDragon]

I looked up some info on bbca

 

http://www.cps.org.tw/docs/%28Vol54%20No2E%29%20Article%201.pdf

 

looks like the study shows it is good to reduce fatigue after a workout.

 

Any idea if it can be used just as a general supplement? Or would that result in becoming a huge bear of some sort?

 

The reason one has to take the supplement bbca is because workout is a strenuous exercise. Strenuous exercise consumes lots of ATP. In Chi Kung practice, instead consuming energy, it generates ATP.

 

This supplement is not a growth hormone, I don't think one takes it will become a huge bear of some sort.

Edited June 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The reason one has to take the supplement bbca is because workout is a strenuous exercise. Strenuous exercise consumes lots of ATP. In Chi Kung practice, instead consuming energy, it generates ATP.

 

This supplement is not a growth hormone, I don't think one takes it will become a huge bear of some sort.

 

Well, it is related to creatine, though at the earlier pre-tranformation stage, so it might eventually turn into creatine and contribute to serious Bear like symptoms.

[ChiDragon]

Well, it is related to creatine, though at the earlier pre-tranformation stage, so it might eventually turn into creatine and contribute to serious Bear like symptoms.

 

The good thing about Chi Kung is that there was no need for practitioners to take any supplement. Chi Kung will increase the production of bio-energy(ATP) to fine tune the body holistically.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I agree. Also, the lymph and interstitial fluids will move and cleanse the body more effectively. And I was surprised to learn that one of the by-products to movement exercise (qigong) with rhythmic breathing is...pure water! Free moisturizing capacity...

 

 

Have you experienced this increased movement of the interstital and CS fluids that the embryonic (deep belly) breathing process promotes?

 

To the best of my knowledge, whatever take place in the body just happen and always the same; and Chi Kung is just an enhancer. It is because by abdominal breathing will increase 20% of air intake to add more oxygen for cell respiration. At the last stage of Cell respiration requires a large amount of oxygen to produce the ATP. ATP is very important for the body to carry out the functions of all the internal organs.

 

I do agree that the slow movements, in Chi Kung, increase muscle tone and the chemical activity of the muscles. Ever since I practiced Tai Chi and Taoist meditaion Chi Kung. I haven't got sick in the past seven years and not to mention the enhancement of libido.

Edited June 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Thank you for sharing your wonderful benefits, ChiDragon.

 

It was my pleasure. I thank you for your interest and being a good listener.

[Thunder_Gooch]

[Enishi]

LMAO!!!!

[Xienkula1]

Well it's certainly more entertaining then reading it out of a Biochem text book, bitch=enzyme=reactive protein. Anyone ever done the endogenous breathing with the device?????

[JustARandomPanda]

I know peeps reading this will be more interested in the Qi Gong side of things with regards to ATP but I just couldn't help but plug a book I feel deserves way more reknown than it currently has. I'm talking about Roger J. William's Biochemical Individuality. He also had a wonderful followup called The Wonderful World within You.

[Taomeow]

A biophysicist, Dr. Gilbert Ning LIng, published a book in 1962 titled A Physical Theory of the Living State, the Association-Induction Hypothesis,

 

which I read to the extent I could understand it (maybe 10%) and have regarded as my cellular energy bible ever since. Dr. Ling proposed an alternative explanation to that generally accepted by biochemists, because in his own experiments the generally accepted theory (which, if you study its history, is not even a theory, just a scenario randomly proposed for its plausibility and accepted as "scientific fact" without a trace of any scientific proof behind it, and is held together to this day by the force of authority of an assertion repeated so many times that repeating it has successfully substituted proving it -- which is, sadly, the case with most of our "scientific facts" pertaining to live processes) -- as I was saying, the generally accepted theory failed to match his experimental data AND to be self-congruent too.

 

Here's, briefly, his Association–Induction (A-I) Hypothesis:

 

• each cell wall is structured;
• cell cations (the positively-charged ions) are associated mostly with macromolecules (the large molecules)
• potassium in cells gathers at negatively charged association sites along the macromolecules of proteins and lipids ( fat or fat-like substances)
• once the potassium ions are in place, a force of attraction causes water molecules to line up their oxygen atoms facing one direction and their hydrogen atoms facing the other (around the protein/lipid macromolecules). This produces a layer of structured water. This means the water molecules are no longer free or random but exhibit an orderly arrangement as in ice crystals – although cellular structured water is much less solid than ice;
• around the initial layer of highly structured water molecules is a second layer, which is less structured because it is farther from the attractive force. The third layer is less structured than the second and so on.
• Water molecules most distant from the macromolecules are most random though probably somewhat structured;
• The protein/lipid macromolecules are interwoven in a latticework that extends throughout the cell to form a skeleton-like structure resembling a sponge. This skeleton itself controls ion concentrations by choosing potassium in preference to other ions and by structuring water;
• Water that is structured will not readily accept ions or foreign materials.
• Although much sodium-laden extracellular serum diffuses through the cell and ions are exchanged between the cell and serum, no energy is required in the form of ATP to maintain high cellular levels of potassium and other ions. In theory the cell could hold these high concentrations forever without using energy. Only when cells are damaged by trauma or poison do they require energy from ATP.

This, to me, means that qi is indeed what I've long maintained it is -- a pattern and a pattern recognition mechanism -- and offers scientific substantiation to my assertion repeated more times than I care to remember -- "qi is not energy."

 

Not ANY kind of energy.

 

It's something altogether else.

[Xienkula1]

A biophysicist, Dr. Gilbert Ning LIng, published a book in 1962 titled A Physical Theory of the Living State, the Association-Induction Hypothesis,

 

which I read to the extent I could understand it (maybe 10%) and have regarded as my cellular energy bible ever since. Dr. Ling proposed an alternative explanation to that generally accepted by biochemists, because in his own experiments the generally accepted theory (which, if you study its history, is not even a theory, just a scenario randomly proposed for its plausibility and accepted as "scientific fact" without a trace of any scientific proof behind it, and is held together to this day by the force of authority of an assertion repeated so many times that repeating it has successfully substituted proving it -- which is, sadly, the case with most of our "scientific facts" pertaining to live processes) -- as I was saying, the generally accepted theory failed to match his experimental data AND to be self-congruent too.

 

Here's, briefly, his Association–Induction (A-I) Hypothesis:

 

• each cell wall is structured;
• cell cations (the positively-charged ions) are associated mostly with macromolecules (the large molecules)
• potassium in cells gathers at negatively charged association sites along the macromolecules of proteins and lipids ( fat or fat-like substances)
• once the potassium ions are in place, a force of attraction causes water molecules to line up their oxygen atoms facing one direction and their hydrogen atoms facing the other (around the protein/lipid macromolecules). This produces a layer of structured water. This means the water molecules are no longer free or random but exhibit an orderly arrangement as in ice crystals – although cellular structured water is much less solid than ice;
• around the initial layer of highly structured water molecules is a second layer, which is less structured because it is farther from the attractive force. The third layer is less structured than the second and so on.
• Water molecules most distant from the macromolecules are most random though probably somewhat structured;
• The protein/lipid macromolecules are interwoven in a latticework that extends throughout the cell to form a skeleton-like structure resembling a sponge. This skeleton itself controls ion concentrations by choosing potassium in preference to other ions and by structuring water;
• Water that is structured will not readily accept ions or foreign materials.
• Although much sodium-laden extracellular serum diffuses through the cell and ions are exchanged between the cell and serum, no energy is required in the form of ATP to maintain high cellular levels of potassium and other ions. In theory the cell could hold these high concentrations forever without using energy. Only when cells are damaged by trauma or poison do they require energy from ATP.

This, to me, means that qi is indeed what I've long maintained it is -- a pattern and a pattern recognition mechanism -- and offers scientific substantiation to my assertion repeated more times than I care to remember -- "qi is not energy."

 

Not ANY kind of energy.

 

It's something altogether else.

Interesting reminds me of the book Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life by Gerald Pollock. It is very possible, I've always wondered if cells were in fact liquid crystals, and Mae Wan ho's work seems to point to this. It would be interesting to see what happens if you do gene knock out of ATP synthetase in bacteria and see if it is still able to reproduce....I will have to research and see if it has already been done.

 

EDIT this is interesting: http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0471661791/cutting_edge/minimal_genomes/minimal_genomes.htm

 

"A full 95% of the genome is devoted to coding for proteins or RNA. This organism has genes which code for a full complement of ribosomal and transfer RNAs, together with a large set of enzymes for replication, transcription, and translation, including DNA repair enzymes. Surprisingly, however, N. equitans lacks almost all the genes for carbon metabolism such as the glycolytic pathway, citric acid cycle, and pentose phosphate pathway. It is also missing essentially all the elements required for the biosynthesis of lipids, amino acids, and nucleotides. While it has the genes for a very minimal ATP synthase, it is not at all clear how the organism could generate its own energy supply."

Edited June 12, 2011 by Xienkula1

[ChiDragon]

Interesting reminds me of the book Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life by Gerald Pollock. It is very possible, I've always wondered if cells were in fact liquid crystals, and Mae Wan ho's work seems to point to this. It would be interesting to see what happens if you do gene knock out of ATP synthetase in bacteria and see if it is still able to reproduce....I will have to research and see if it has already been done.

 

EDIT this is interesting: http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0471661791/cutting_edge/minimal_genomes/minimal_genomes.htm

 

"A full 95% of the genome is devoted to coding for proteins or RNA. This organism has genes which code for a full complement of ribosomal and transfer RNAs, together with a large set of enzymes for replication, transcription, and translation, including DNA repair enzymes. Surprisingly, however, N. equitans lacks almost all the genes for carbon metabolism such as the glycolytic pathway, citric acid cycle, and pentose phosphate pathway. It is also missing essentially all the elements required for the biosynthesis of lipids, amino acids, and nucleotides. While it has the genes for a very minimal ATP synthase, it is not at all clear how the organism could generate its own energy supply."

 

The organism could generate its own energy supply from the first stage of cellular respiration: glycolysis.

http://www.answers.com/topic/glycolysis

 

Ref: Please read IV. Anaerobic Respiration (Fermentation) from:

http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/N100/2k4ch7respirationnotes.html

[joeblast]

[Xienkula1]

The organism could generate its own energy supply from the first stage of cellular respiration: glycolysis.

http://www.answers.com/topic/glycolysis

 

Ref: Please read IV. Anaerobic Respiration (Fermentation) from:

http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/N100/2k4ch7respirationnotes.html

Note: if you read the whole link, what is so interesting is that it lacks the genes for carbon metabolism in terms of glycolysis, meaning it can't break down glucose.It generates its energy by taking it from a host, it's an obligate parasite. So it can't make pyruvate but it can import it from the host, along with whatever else it lacks. On its own, it cannot generate sufficient energy.

[ChiDragon]

Note: if you read the whole link, what is so interesting is that it lacks the genes for carbon metabolism in terms of glycolysis, meaning it can't break down glucose.It generates its energy by taking it from a host, it's an obligate parasite. So it can't make pyruvate but it can import it from the host, along with whatever else it lacks. On its own, it cannot generate sufficient energy.

 

That's all it need is two molecule of ATP for the cells to function. In the glycolysis stage, it can generate four molecules of ATP. Two of the energy molecules were used for cell function and only two were left for body strength. If the supply of oxygen was no not provided for the second stage of cellular respiration, then the cell will die eventually due to hypoxia.

Edited June 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

goes along with Luk saying elimination of salt helps cut down the anions to help foster the positive principle

 

Shamanic uses of ayahuasca also involve a saltless, vegetarian, potassium-rich diet. I wonder how Mr. Luk would fare if he had a chance to go as far with the positive principle as it takes you... could have been fun.

 

Empirically, a saltless, vegetarian, predominantly raw, potassium-rich diet, which I tried for a prolonged period of time in the heyday of my nutritional experimentation, causes this pattern of the positive principle to unfold:

/\ . Which goes along with the general taoist principle -- extreme yang flips over into yin. Which is one reason I take any and all spiritual endeavors ISO the positive principle with a pinch of salt.

[Xienkula1]

Shamanic uses of ayahuasca also involve a saltless, vegetarian, potassium-rich diet. I wonder how Mr. Luk would fare if he had a chance to go as far with the positive principle as it takes you... could have been fun.

 

Empirically, a saltless, vegetarian, predominantly raw, potassium-rich diet, which I tried for a prolonged period of time in the heyday of my nutritional experimentation, causes this pattern of the positive principle to unfold:

/\ . Which goes along with the general taoist principle -- extreme yang flips over into yin. Which is one reason I take any and all spiritual endeavors ISO the positive principle with a pinch of salt.

Yes! lol a pinch of salt. Strangely like potassium, sodium is a cation and is positively charged, the difference between them being the size of the atoms, sodium being smaller with one less electron orbital, and potassium being larger, having one more electron orbital, with the valence shell having one electron, and thus exposing the positive charge of the proton nucleus, so the convention positively charged. While oxygen has 2 electrons in its valence shell so it's seeking to reach 8 by reversible electron transfer, an ionic bond. That's why Chloride anion with 7 electrons in its valence outer shell "loves" sodium with its one electron they can temporarily have a balance of 8 and become non-reactive as salt. Too much salt leads to high blood pressure, while too little leads to low blood pressure. Too much potassium leads to low blood pressure, and too little, to high blood pressure. It all depends on one's constitution.

[Taomeow]

Yes! lol a pinch of salt. Strangely like potassium, sodium is a cation and is positively charged, the difference between them being the size of the atoms, sodium being smaller with one less electron orbital, and potassium being larger, having one more electron orbital, with the valence shell having one electron, and thus exposing the positive charge of the proton nucleus, so the convention positively charged. While oxygen has 2 electrons in its valence shell so it's seeking to reach 8 by reversible electron transfer, an ionic bond. That's why Chloride anion with 7 electrons in its valence outer shell "loves" sodium with its one electron they can temporarily have a balance of 8 and become non-reactive as salt. Too much salt leads to high blood pressure, while too little leads to low blood pressure. Too much potassium leads to low blood pressure, and too little, to high blood pressure. It all depends on one's constitution.

 

Yup...

 

There's several efficient ways to upset the overall electrolytic balance in a population reliant on food supply that is controlled by anything other than nutritional experience of thousands of years:

 

1. Use either excess or deficiency of either sodium or potassium in everyday dietary choices available to an average consumer;

2. Make it illegal to obtain either one or the other in therapeutically significant amounts and in the form of bioavailable nontoxic compounds;

3. Offer toxic additives (e.g. "anticaking agents" in commonly available table salt) or toxic compounds (e.g. "potassium chloride" in supplements, in amounts so restricted -- 99 mg cut-off for potassium -- that the dose of the "good guy" is too low to be efficient while the dose of the piggybacking "bad guy" is too low to notice its detrimental effects immediately);

4. Disseminate a lot of disinformation -- e.g., pretend that "all" potassium compounds behave in the body the same way as the toxic chloride and are all equally dangerous; pretend that "high salt intake" is the same thing as "high intake of salt mixed with toxic additives, or processed in ways that eliminate synergistic trace minerals and drastically interfere with its bioavailability, turning it into junk clogging the kidneys instead of what it would have been in its natural bioavailable state;" and so on -- sky is the limit, confused minds the goal, sick bodies the outcome, medical cartel's unparalleled and unprecedented profits the "inadvertent side effect," if one believes in such things.

 

In our society, they went with using excess sodium, deficient/illegalized potassium. In the past, they used the opposite too -- historically there were many laws regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the use of salt by the common folks, and many lies about its effects justified first "spiritually" and later "scientifically."

[Birch]

Wow. I understand roughly 10% of this thread. But something about that documentary about the Kogi and another idea about fluoride in toothpaste and water supply came to mind.