Tao and the Tao Te Ching

[Aaron]

A topic of interest lately, (at least for me and a few others on the board) has been the debate as to whether or not the Tao that is being talked about in the Tao Te Ching is the same throughout, or whether they are different.

 

I will start with my position, which is simply that Chapter 1 clearly states that the Tao that can be talked about isn't the Eternal Tao, hence the Tao being discussed elsewhere is not the Eternal Tao, but rather the Tao that can be described.

 

Have at it... I might recommend citing passages to prove your points, since this thread is talking about it in the context of the Tao Te Ching. That doesn't mean that you can't comment on other texts, just that this is a literary discussion, rather than a free-form philosophical discussion.

 

Aaron

[dawei]

Having just returned from a month in china and having visited a few daoist temples (in Sichuan province) I walked away with a different take than the traditional, pat approach of saying what dao is not (or what one cannot do or say about it). Unfortunately, to explain it as clear as possible, I have to appeal to more free-form philosophical discussion but I see it as the meaning of the opening lines.

 

I think the main change from most translations is the following:

1. ke dao = dao'ed (dao in action or movement)

2. heng/chang = Constant, regular, permanent

3. fei heng/chang dao = none-constancy of Dao (the non-fixed arising, manifest aspect)

 

By fixed I mean that Dao is not really anything in-and-of-itself but more like a rule (or law of nature) which the ten thousand things appear to operate by their nature; but one has to always remember that it is a system in constant interaction and therefore nothing is really constant. I see it similar to playing a game; One can play by fixed rules but once you actually play the rules are constant but playing reveals that the rules produce an arising which cannot occur unless you play.

 

So in a nutshell:

Dao Ke Dao

Dao once dao'ed

 

Fei Heng/Chang Dao

[results in] the non-fixed arising of [following] Dao

 

Or to say: When Dao [as a fixed set of rules] is manifested by the ten thousand things, there is [non-fixed] arising and transformation.

 

I think Chapter 25 and 42 in particular support this as a following and transformation.

 

I don't want to attempt to shove it down anyone's throat with tons of evidence. I hope that some simply see the point but it can be discussed further if of interest.

[Mr. T]

howdy!

 

i am most definitely not qualified to answer this, however, i'll throw my opinion in here for what it's worth (less than 2 cents). my understanding is that the title "tao te ching" translates nearly directly to "way and virtue classic". therefore, the ttc actually seems to talk about two major subjects, "tao" and "te"...way and virtue. the dividing line being between 37 and 38. the first part (1-37) talks about tao...it's attributes, how to cultivate it in your life...general tao related stuff. the second part (38-81) talks about virtue and what true virtue is. the second part also seems to tell us how we can align ourselves with the first part of the book, by learning about virtue.

 

so my attempt to provide a definitive answer would be "yes" and "no"!!

 

yes, the whole book is about how to live a life according to the tao and how to realign our physical selves with it. but it does this is a manner which seems to focus on virtue as a means of realignment.

 

anyways that is what i have been taught and it is my understanding. feel free to disagree completely, and call me full of it. perfectly understandable!

 

dawei, i really like your insights, thanks for sharing...

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 1

1. 道 可道，非 常道。

1. Dao4 ke3 dao4, fei1 chang2 Dao4;

 

The first and third 道(dao4) is Tao itself as a proper noun.

The second 道(dao4) is because with 可(ke3) in front of it as 可道(ke3 dao4) which made 道(dao4) as a verb.

 

Here is the breakdown

1. 道(Dao4): Tao

2. 可道(ke3 dao4): able to speak; speakable; can be spoken

3. 非(fei1): not

4. 常(chang2): eternal, always; forever

5. 道(Dao4: Tao

 

Hence, the final translation for line 1 would be:

1. 道可道，非常道。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

 

 

Edited to add:

1. 道可道，非恒道。

The original character 恒(heng2) was in line 1.

恒(heng2) and 常(chang2) both have the identical meaning as defined above.

 

Some place along the line 恒(heng2) was replaced with 常(chang2). It is because 恒(heng2) was the name of a king in the Han dynasty. It was forbidden to have the name of a king in any document at the time.

Edited June 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Riyue]

A topic of interest lately, (at least for me and a few others on the board) has been the debate as to whether or not the Tao that is being talked about in the Tao Te Ching is the same throughout, or whether they are different.

 

I will start with my position, which is simply that Chapter 1 clearly states that the Tao that can be talked about isn't the Eternal Tao, hence the Tao being discussed elsewhere is not the Eternal Tao, but rather the Tao that can be described.

 

Have at it... I might recommend citing passages to prove your points, since this thread is talking about it in the context of the Tao Te Ching. That doesn't mean that you can't comment on other texts, just that this is a literary discussion, rather than a free-form philosophical discussion.

 

Aaron

 

hello

Shuowenjiezi explains heng2 (chang2- here translated as eternal)

 

在二之閒上下。

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 13, 2011 by Riyue

[stan herman]

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 1

1. 道可道，非常道。

2. 名可名，非常名。

3. 無,名天地之始。

4. 有,名萬物之母。

5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。

7. 此兩者同出而異名，

8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，

9. 眾妙之門。

 

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

8. Both are regarded as fathomless; the most mysterious of the mysterious;

9. The gate of all changes.

 

Here is the direct translation from the classic text of Chapter 1. I will go over line by line with annotations why they are translated this way.

 

PS...

Line 1 has been done already in the above post.

Edited June 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

Having just returned from a month in china and having visited a few daoist temples (in Sichuan province) I walked away with a different take than the traditional, pat approach of saying what dao is not (or what one cannot do or say about it). Unfortunately, to explain it as clear as possible, I have to appeal to more free-form philosophical discussion but I see it as the meaning of the opening lines.

 

I think the main change from most translations is the following:

1. ke dao = dao'ed (dao in action or movement)

2. heng/chang = Constant, regular, permanent

3. fei heng/chang dao = none-constancy of Dao (the non-fixed arising, manifest aspect)

 

By fixed I mean that Dao is not really anything in-and-of-itself but more like a rule (or law of nature) which the ten thousand things appear to operate by their nature; but one has to always remember that it is a system in constant interaction and therefore nothing is really constant. I see it similar to playing a game; One can play by fixed rules but once you actually play the rules are constant but playing reveals that the rules produce an arising which cannot occur unless you play.

 

So in a nutshell:

Dao Ke Dao

Dao once dao'ed

 

Fei Heng/Chang Dao

[results in] the non-fixed arising of [following] Dao

 

Or to say: When Dao [as a fixed set of rules] is manifested by the ten thousand things, there is [non-fixed] arising and transformation.

 

I think Chapter 25 and 42 in particular support this as a following and transformation.

 

I don't want to attempt to shove it down anyone's throat with tons of evidence. I hope that some simply see the point but it can be discussed further if of interest.

Nice dawei, I'm picking up what you are laying down.

 

[ChiDragon]

Line 2 of Chapter 1

 

2. 名可名，非常名。

2. ming2 ke3 ming2, fei1 chang2 ming2.

 

a. 名(ming2): Name

b. 可名(ke3 ming2): able to name; nameable; can be named

c. 非(fei1): not

d. 常名(chang2 ming2): eternal name

 

Hence, the final translation for line 2 would be:

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

Annotation:

1. 道可道，非常道。

2. 名可名，非常名。

 

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

In Chapter 1, lines 1 and 2, LaoTze was giving an implication that Tao is eternal because it cannot be described with one word or a single sentence. Since Tao is eternal, it cannot be given a name. Although a name was given to Tao, but Tao is still eternal.

 

Tao cannot be described in one word or a single sentence. Therefor, Tao has to be described separately. Hence, that is why there are so many chapters in the Tao Te Ching to describe Tao. Tao appeared in each chapter with a different identity. LoaTze has a paradoxical way of building up the different characteristics of Tao from Chapter to Chapter. Sometimes, the thoughts about Tao were referred back and forth between the related chapters.

Edited June 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Lines 3 and 4, Chapter 1

3. 無,名天地之始。

4. 有,名萬物之母。

 

3. wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3;

4. you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3.

 

The key characters of these two line are 無(wu2) and 有(you3).

1. 無(wu2): none, nothing, implying something was invisible

2. 有(you3): have, exist, implying something exited which was visible.

3. 名(ming2): to name

4. 天地之始(tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3): the beginning of heaven and earth.

5. 萬物之母(wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3): the mother of all things.

 

 

By the definition of lines 1 and 2, the eternal Tao cannot be given a name because a name can be named is not eternal. Therefore, the implication was that Tao can be given more than one name. Hence, LaoTze gave two names for Tao at the two states of its appearance. Tao was named 無(wu2), Invisible, at the beginning of heaven and earth; and Tao was named 有(you3), Visible, as the mother of all things were created.

 

The proper translation for lines 3 and 4:

3. Invisible[無(wu2)] is at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible[有(you3)] is the mother of all things.

 

Let's put it into proper perspective:

3. Invisible was the name, given to Tao, at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name, given to Tao, as the mother of all things.

 

*************************************************************************

These two lines are commonly mistranslated due the punctuation of the comma was placed at the wrong place as shown below.

 

3. 無名,天地之始。

4. 有名,萬物之母。

 

The compound characters would be translated as:

a. 無名(wu2 ming2): no name; nameless

b. 有名(you3 ming2): have a name; with a name

c. 天地之始(tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3): the beginning of heaven and earth.

d. 萬物之母(wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3): the mother of all things.

 

The mistranslation:

3. The nameless at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. There is a name for the mother of all things.

 

Over here, "The nameless" may have an implication that Tao is the origin of heaven and earth. However, "There is a name" has no indication that Tao is the mother of all things.

Edited June 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Procurator]

 

 

I think the main change from most translations is the following:

1. ke dao = dao'ed (dao in action or movement)

2. heng/chang = Constant, regular, permanent

3. fei heng/chang dao = none-constancy of Dao (the non-fixed arising, manifest aspect)

 

By fixed I mean that Dao is not really anything in-and-of-itself but more like a rule (or law of nature) which the ten thousand things appear to operate by their nature; but one has to always remember that it is a system in constant interaction and therefore nothing is really constant. I see it similar to playing a game; One can play by fixed rules but once you actually play the rules are constant but playing reveals that the rules produce an arising which cannot occur unless you play.

 

So in a nutshell:

Dao Ke Dao

Dao once dao'ed

 

Fei Heng/Chang Dao

[results in] the non-fixed arising of [following] Dao

 

Or to say: When Dao [as a fixed set of rules] is manifested by the ten thousand things, there is [non-fixed] arising and transformation.

 

I think Chapter 25 and 42 in particular support this as a following and transformation.

 

I don't want to attempt to shove it down anyone's throat with tons of evidence. I hope that some simply see the point but it can be discussed further if of interest.

you are getting close IMHO, but not quite,similarly to Ghidragon you guys still translate as if DDJ was written in a vacuum. it was not, it was written using a technical, well established language with (as is the case with all tech jargons common words having diff meaning) from everyday usage.

 

the first sentence is a contraction of

 

道可道者，非常道也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%8F%AF%E9%81%93%E8%80%85

 

meaning - 道underlying Great Dao 可that enables 道者 individual ways of conduct，is 非not 常 a commonplace 道 way of conduct也

 

all this technical usages can be attested by the texts from the link above.

[dawei]

hello

Shuowenjiezi explains heng2 (chang2- here translated as eternal)

 

在二之閒上下。

 

Moving in a free space of polarity up and down ... to and fro...

 

here is the problem in understanding the first line of ddj1 - it forgets the original

it gets always translated in tradition of dao jiao...

I don't mind the 'time' approach so much but you would have to say where you take this.

 

I always like the parallel thought and feeling that the Tai Yi Sheng Shui (大一生水) provided concerning Dao: The generating cycle (over time) and it's designation (as Dao) but wondering as to it's 'name' (ming). Chapter 25 asks the same questions and arrives at the same conclusions.

 

There is an interest passage in the Tai Yi Sheng Shui in reference to the cycle:

此天之所不能殺，- This is something which heaven cannot cut off

地之所不能埋，- [That] earth cannot bury

陰陽之所不能成。- [That] Yin and Yang cannot complete

君子知此之胃{謂) [missing character(s)] - The thoughtful man knows this is designated [Way].

 

I think this doesn't care to get into whether speaking something or naming something is eternal (or can name the eternal); it is simply that there is always a designation we would call 'Dao'.

 

Forget 'heaven'; forget 'earth'; forget 'yin and yang'; There is still a designation we would call 'Dao'.

 

Now bring in 'heaven' and 'earth' and 'yin yang'; There is still a designation we would call 'Dao'.

[dawei]

the first sentence is a contraction of

 

道可道者，非常道也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%8F%AF%E9%81%93%E8%80%85

 

meaning - 道underlying Great Dao 可that enables 道者 individual ways of conduct，is 非not 常 a commonplace 道 way of conduct也

I know where you get 'commonplace' but maybe you can say something more. Is your meaning of 'commonplace' relative to Dao or relative to all the ten thousand (ie: they each have their own commonplace 'way of conduct' which unfolds).

 

I am personally looking into turning the negative around to state what the positive case is:

- Is not a commonplace way of conduct

 

How would you turn that around to say what it "IS"?

 

- Is a unique way of conduct? (each manifests their own unique way?)

[Procurator]

[dawei]

I follow your point of negation.

 

What really has stayed with me since visiting Mt. Qingcheng is a hugh etching (one of maybe hundreds upon hundreds on the mountain) which said:

 

老子非常道 - Lao Zi Fei Chang Dao

 

After many days (dare I say weeks) of thinking about this, I could not accept the spoon fed, textbook translation any more of line 1.

 

Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

Translation of lines 5 and 6 of Chapter 1

 

In lines 3 and 4, 無(wu2) and 有(you3) were treated as Nouns like Invisible and Visible respectively. However, in lines 5 and 6, 無(wu2) and 有(you3) were treated as adjectives.

 

5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。

 

Pinyin:

5. gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4;

6. chang2 you3, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3.

 

The breakdown of line 5:

a. 故(gu4): therefore; hence; thus

b. 常無(chang2 wu2): always none; implicating always invisible

c. 欲以觀(yu4 yi3 guan1): would observe

d. 其妙(qi2 miao4;): its subtlety; characteristic; quale

 

The breakdown of line 6:

a. 常有(chang2 you3): always have; always have been; implicating always visible.

b. 欲以觀(yu4 yi3 guan1): would observe

c. 其徼(qi2 jiao3): its boundary

 

The translation of lines 5 and 6:

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

Annotation:

What these two lines are saying was: Hence the Invisible(Tao) is always invisible, we can only feeling the presence of Tao by our senses. When the Visible(Tao) is always visible, we can see its limitations by observing its highest capability.

Edited June 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Line 7 of Chapter 1

7. 此兩者同出而異名，

7. ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2,

 

The breakdown of line 7:

a. 此兩者(ci3 liang3 zhe3): these two

b. 同出(tong2 chu1): came from the same(origin)

c. 而異名(er2 yi4 ming2): but differ in name

 

Translation:

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name.

 

Annotation:

I was always wondering about what are "these two(此兩者) in line 7...???

If I look at it closely, then I realized they were referred 無(wu2) and 有(you3) to lines 3 and 4. Thus these two "that come from one origin but differ in name"

 

These three lines are self explanatory...

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name.

 

Indeed, the logic of line 7 flows along with lines 3 and 4.

[ChiDragon]

you are getting close IMHO, but not quite,similarly to Ghidragon you guys still translate as if DDJ was written in a vacuum. it was not, it was written using a technical, well established language with (as is the case with all tech jargons common words having diff meaning) from everyday usage.

 

the first sentence is a contraction of

 

道可道者，非常道也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%8F%AF%E9%81%93%E8%80%85

 

meaning - 道underlying Great Dao 可that enables 道者 individual ways of conduct，is 非not 常 a commonplace 道 way of conduct也

 

all this technical usages can be attested by the texts from the link above.

 

How much do you understand classic text....???

道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken of Tao,

 

非常道也: Then, it is not the eternal Tao.

 

PS...

Please keep in mind, the Tao Te Ching is not about the ways of conduct but Confucius is.

Edited June 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Procurator]

How much do you understand classic text....???

道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken of Tao,

 

非常道也: Then, it is the eternal Tao.

 

what does that even mean? i dont understand your english.

 

PS...

Please keep in mind, the Tao Te Ching is not about the ways of conduct but Confucius is.

sounds a bit naif to me.

[ChiDragon]

what does that even mean? i dont understand your english.

 

 

sounds a bit naif to me.

 

ooops....

Sorry, I always tend to leave out the negative word "not" when I meant to say it.

 

I meant:

道可道者: Those who(者) can be spoken about Tao,

非常道也: Then, they are NOT talking about the eternal Tao.

 

Anyway, the final meaning is:

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

 

Sorry, the classic text is just too difficult to be expressed in English.

Edited June 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

you are getting close IMHO, but not quite,similarly to Ghidragon you guys still translate as if DDJ was written in a vacuum. it was not, it was written using a technical, well established language with (as is the case with all tech jargons common words having diff meaning) from everyday usage.

 

the first sentence is a contraction of

 

道可道者，非常道也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%8F%AF%E9%81%93%E8%80%85

 

meaning - 道underlying Great Dao 可that enables 道者 individual ways of conduct，is 非not 常 a commonplace 道 way of conduct也

 

all this technical usages can be attested by the texts from the link above.

 

How would you use your meaning to relate to the rest of the lines and come up with the theme of Chapter 1......???

[Procurator]

Oh, its fairly simple, its merely a description of where Dao comes from and how it embodies, unfolds itself in the material world AND, (which is one and the same thing) in the human consiousness.

 

Chpt 1.

體道 Embodiment of Dao

 

道可道，非常道。

There is a Great Dao that enables the individual daos of the material world, That Dao is not a commonplace dao

名可名，非常名。

There is a Logos that enables the individual names of the things in the human conciousness, that Logos is not a commonplace name

無名天地之始；

In the process of the materialisation, the stage at which there is yet no Logos is “the beginning of Heaven and Earth”

有名萬物之母。

The subsequent stage at which there is already the Logos is“the womb of all things”

故常無欲，以觀其妙；

If the mind is constantly without desires - thru that it will see Dao’s Mystery

常有欲，以觀其徼。

If the mind is constantly with desires - due to that it will see Dao’s outer fringe only.

此兩者，同出而異名，同謂之玄。玄之又玄，衆妙之門。

These two (the Beginng of Heaven and Earth AND the Womb of All Things) come from the same initial stage but get distingueshed from each other by the presence of Logos. Together they are called Darkness. Within the subsequent Darkness (The Womb) there is a previous Darkness (The Beginning), two of them together serve as entrance to the Dao’s Mystery (the very first stage).

Edited June 12, 2011 by TianShi

[ChiDragon]

Oh, its fairly simple, its merely a description of where Dao comes from and how it embodies, unfolds itself in the material world AND, (which is one and the same thing) in the human consiousness.

Thank you!

I see some Buddhist flavor in the translation. However, it didn't indicate where did Dao comes from...???

[ChiDragon]

howdy!

 

i am most definitely not qualified to answer this, however, i'll throw my opinion in here for what it's worth (less than 2 cents). my understanding is that the title "tao te ching" translates nearly directly to "way and virtue classic". therefore, the ttc actually seems to talk about two major subjects, "tao" and "te"...way and virtue. the dividing line being between 37 and 38. the first part (1-37) talks about tao...it's attributes, how to cultivate it in your life...general tao related stuff. the second part (38-81) talks about virtue and what true virtue is. the second part also seems to tell us how we can align ourselves with the first part of the book, by learning about virtue.

 

so my attempt to provide a definitive answer would be "yes" and "no"!!

 

yes, the whole book is about how to live a life according to the tao and how to realign our physical selves with it. but it does this is a manner which seems to focus on virtue as a means of realignment.

 

anyways that is what i have been taught and it is my understanding. feel free to disagree completely, and call me full of it. perfectly understandable!

 

I cannot disagree completely but agreed all with you. You are full of the basic knowledge of the TTC.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 1 The eternal Tao

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

Why is Tao eternal...???

It is because line 1 implicates that Tao is eternal. Line 2 also was implicating that Tao is eternal. What line 2 says was that any given name to a thing is not eternal. Does that implicate that the thing may be eternal but not the name itself...??? Yes, the reason that LaoTze starts with these two lines was to give himself some room to work with. So he can describe Tao freely.

 

He says Tao is eternal but any given name is not. According to LaoTze, Tao is not really Tao because it is just a chaotic thing which is eternal. Hence, he can call the eternal Tao with any name, e.g. Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), please notice the caps are indicating that they are proper nouns. The names are just a temporary nomenclature for Tao at any instant in LoaTze's thoughts. Even the name Tao was only temporary in the Tao Te Ching for the convenience to describe it. Sometimes, LoaTze called it Tao, Wu2, You3, One or something else.

 

Lines 3 and 4 have a good indication that Tao is eternal for the following reasons.

 

The reason he called Tao, Wu2(Invisible) and You3(Visible), was because he wants to establish a reference point in time to distinguish the two different states for Tao.

 

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

This statement implicating that Tao even existed before heaven and earth.

 

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

This statement implicating that Tao has been manifested by all the things had come to existence.

 

 

Anybody have any thoughts on this...???