Method and Effect - Essentials

[宁]

Hi there,

 

in your opinion, what is the best way to establish a valid coonection between Method and Effect.

It is said that if the Effect is sought and expected, the Mind will create a False effect, as a result of expectations, therefore impending the true Effect of the method to manifest on its own accord.

If this is true, then most of the methods that exist on the spiritual market fall into this category.

 

This isn't a matter of criticizing what others choose to do, but an honest quest for the answer to this question: If we wouldn't have know the intended effects of the practices we got involved into... what would they have resulted into??

 

It seems that there are two ways of practicing, regarding Daoism:

one is called 大道Da Dao - the Great Dao

the other is called 旁门Pang men - the side door [to the Dao]

This is a question adressed to those that are into the Da Dao practices: why is it considered improper to be entering Dao through Pang men?

 

Thanks!

 

L1

[de_paradise]

I use sense data to establish the usefulness of a meditation, and by sense data I mean the feelings in my mind, the energies, the qi. I am not sure how apparent these things are to other people, it seems to vary from person to person, and on their overall progress. Generally I would test, having the expectations to test, not having that it would test and pass. So the mind-created "expectations" effects are not all that big of a problem as you might think.

 

The things I test are pretty simple. Such as this example: I lately stumbled on the "feeling of gratefulness" and feeling of humbleness before the universe, like a paper boat in a storm.So during meditation or yoga, I would bring up these feelings by suggesting to myself scenarios. At the same time I can measure whats happening kinesthetically with my qi and mind-feelings.

 

 

Longer term its hard to know the validity of a method unless one has some data, and because we are never in a vacuum, expecially over the years of practicing this and that and the other, I would argue it is near impossible to attribute.

 

I dont know about damen and pangmen, its probably having to do with the addition of unorthodox methods (like sorcery and such) for pangmen, thus frowned on by purists, who sit in their nice clean uniforms on their uncorruptable meditation mats.

[ChiDragon]

Hi there,

 

in your opinion, what is the best way to establish a valid coonection between Method and Effect.

It is said that if the Effect is sought and expected, the Mind will create a False effect, as a result of expectations, therefore impending the true Effect of the method to manifest on its own accord.

If this is true, then most of the methods that exist on the spiritual market fall into this category.

 

This isn't a matter of criticizing what others choose to do, but an honest quest for the answer to this question: If we wouldn't have know the intended effects of the practices we got involved into... what would they have resulted into??

 

It seems that there are two ways of practicing, regarding Daoism:

one is called 大道Da Dao - the Great Dao

the other is called 旁门Pang men - the side door [to the Dao]

This is a question adressed to those that are into the Da Dao practices: why is it considered improper to be entering Dao through Pang men?

 

Thanks!

 

L1

 

 

I know the language pretty well and know exactly what you are asking.

By 大道Da Dao - the Great Dao, actually it should be said:

1. 正道(zheng4 Dao) - the correct way.

2. 旁门Pang men(the side door) - the incorrect way(implication).

 

Item 1 is self explanatory.

 

Item 2: In the Chinese thinking, it means that anything was not taken the right approach was considered to be going through the side door. Another words, if one tries to speed up a process by going about doing it the wrong way or do something illegal to get to the final result. Indeed, these steps were done improperly were considered to be taken the side door to get there.

[Procurator]

Hi there,

 

in your opinion, what is the best way to establish a valid coonection between Method and Effect.

It is said that if the Effect is sought and expected, the Mind will create a False effect, as a result of expectations, therefore impending the true Effect of the method to manifest on its own accord.

If this is true, then most of the methods that exist on the spiritual market fall into this category.

 

correct. there is just one true method and its not for buying or selling, its "not on the market"

This isn't a matter of criticizing what others choose to do, but an honest quest for the answer to this question: If we wouldn't have know the intended effects of the practices we got involved into... what would they have resulted into??

 

into nothing if wrong practice. into true effect i true

 

It seems that there are two ways of practicing, regarding Daoism:

one is called 大道Da Dao - the Great Dao

the other is called 旁门Pang men - the side door [to the Dao]

This is a question adressed to those that are into the Da Dao practices: why is it considered improper to be entering Dao through Pang men?

 

Thanks!

 

L1

good question but yr assumption is wrong. the side door is not leading to Dao, it leads to a dead end, that is why.

[Otis]

in your opinion, what is the best way to establish a valid coonection between Method and Effect.

My solution to this problem is basically to ignore method. Method seems to me to be the opposite of emptiness, the opposite of dependent origination. Method seems to be all ego, all outside-in.

 

So instead, I try to eschew my own theories of causation, when possible, and just make my practices about following what flow wants to do. I allow it to make the choices, and I do my best not to seize on any images or stories.

 

And that has led to many great results (and some not as great ones), but of course, I can't really draw a valid causal relationship, with a sample size of one. So I keep on reminding myself that "I don't know", and continue to move forward (backward?) with faith.

 

(I say backward, above, because "not knowing" is like walking backwards. It's trusting that my system understands the path well enough, that I/my ego doesn't need to be actively trying to figure out the road "ahead").

[manitou]

Inner work taming the ego makes the connection.

[doc benway]

Hi there,

 

in your opinion, what is the best way to establish a valid coonection between Method and Effect.

It is said that if the Effect is sought and expected, the Mind will create a False effect, as a result of expectations, therefore impending the true Effect of the method to manifest on its own accord.

If this is true, then most of the methods that exist on the spiritual market fall into this category.

 

This isn't a matter of criticizing what others choose to do, but an honest quest for the answer to this question: If we wouldn't have know the intended effects of the practices we got involved into... what would they have resulted into??

 

It seems that there are two ways of practicing, regarding Daoism:

one is called 大道Da Dao - the Great Dao

the other is called 旁门Pang men - the side door [to the Dao]

This is a question adressed to those that are into the Da Dao practices: why is it considered improper to be entering Dao through Pang men?

 

Thanks!

 

L1

Excellent question Little1. I think this is a weakness of many methods. Expectations affect the experience and outcome. Maybe analogous to Heisenberg's uncertainty. Quantum Mechanics has demonstrated a time and place independence of such a relationship between cause and effect. So our expectations preselect our path.

My shifu has mentioned that the Pang men is hazardous. Quicker, more demanding, and more risk.

Beyond that, I am unable to add anything worthwhile.

[宁]

Thanks for answering guys/gals

 

I feel this problem doesn't have much to do with the issue of ego (i don't really think there is such a concept in daoism, and i think -maybe just a poor idea- we should narrow our discourse mainly on daoism and daoist related concepts).

 

@Tianshi, nice input, you can expand a bit if you want to.

@ChiDragon, what is proper and what is improper?

 

@Steve, i hear ya. I work in the medical field as well... there's something i encountered into my daily interactions with patients and medicine. Some of them have a really strong mind, and are able to induce the intended effect of the medicine prior to it's normal time of action. Placebo... we all know of it, however it's kind of surprinsing every time you're witnessing it. The difference is, imo, that medicine really does have a active ingredient in it, and taken into the required dosage, over the required period of time as a treatment, it can really yield results, results that are tangible through various other analysis.

 

I don't think it's just by chance dat daoist terminology bears alot of resemblance to medical and medicine related concepts & methodology.

If we consider the above...

I remember in the past i've done many practices, not following 'the required dosage' and 'the required period of time as treatment', and yet i had various 'results'.

I admit, most of them faded in time rather quickly after i no longer practiced the methods.

 

Nowadays, while i observer the requirements for the 'effects' (which are not sought or intended - they are not even known beforehand) that are part of a more formal/traditional way of practicing the Dao, i can't help wondering if all that i have experienced beforehand were just figments of my (admittedly) rich imagination.

 

Nothing new, i must add.... just kind of awqward when it happens and you are the subject of it.

I feel there are two ways of developing from this point on:

 

1. to proceed as Otis did, to narrow my trust in objective and 'fixed' installations and entities, such as methods and teachers, or

2. ??

 

I'm not clear about this

[doc benway]

 

@Steve, i hear ya. I work in the medical field as well... there's something i encountered into my daily interactions with patients and medicine. Some of them have a really strong mind, and are able to induce the intended effect of the medicine prior to it's normal time of action. Placebo... we all know of it, however it's kind of surprinsing every time you're witnessing it. The difference is, imo, that medicine really does have a active ingredient in it, and taken into the required dosage, over the required period of time as a treatment, it can really yield results, results that are tangible through various other analysis.

 

And it works the other way even more effectively. A treatment can create the necessary anatomic or physiologic changes that would be conducive to resolving the problem, but the expectation or intention remains a block to healing. I see that even more frequently and it makes the job extremely challenging. Once I was able to let go of my attachment to "making someone get better" and simply "do my best to help someone to get where they want to be" I realized that I am blessed to have a "right occupation" and it's up to me to be content with that. I can help with the pain but not always with the suffering. But I do try to address both whenever I can, however. Good luck with #2 (that sounds a little gross... )

[宁]

And it works the other way even more effectively. A treatment can create the necessary anatomic or physiologic changes that would be conducive to resolving the problem, but the expectation or intention remains a block to healing. I see that even more frequently and it makes the job extremely challenging. Once I was able to let go of my attachment to "making someone get better" and simply "do my best to help someone to get where they want to be" I realized that I am blessed to have a "right occupation" and it's up to me to be content with that. I can help with the pain but not always with the suffering. But I do try to address both whenever I can, however. Good luck with #2 (that sounds a little gross... )

 

Interesting indeed, i didn't know about the reverse! That adds up to the plot

Edited June 10, 2011 by Little1

[Otis]

This is part of why I talk about play so much, because there is no necessary method to play. It can simply be an exploration of fascination.

 

I trust, from my experience, that my fascination is evolved to lead me toward discovery. It is my best teacher (although, of course, my conditioning has contaminated my view and ability to follow that fascination).

 

Play, IME, is allowing that spark of fascination to dance. It is letting go of the "right way", and instead finding whatever way is calling me, right now. Perhaps that's my "side door".

 

Play is the centerpiece of my practices, like parkour, dance, etc. My aim is not to do a particular thing, or to appear a certain way, but rather just to empty myself, and be moved along joyfully by the intersection of where the world and I meet. I have been trying to make play and dance my connections to all of my life, as well, surrendering goals and thoughts about what I should be doing. Of course, it's harder to find that balance in the world of work and money.

 

My mission for the last few years has been exploring play with other grown-ups, and some kids, and capturing it on video. One example:

 

[doc benway]

This is part of why I talk about play so much, because there is no necessary method to play. It can simply be an exploration of fascination.

 

I trust, from my experience, that my fascination is evolved to lead me toward discovery. It is my best teacher (although, of course, my conditioning has contaminated my view and ability to follow that fascination).

 

Play, IME, is allowing that spark of fascination to dance. It is letting go of the "right way", and instead finding whatever way is calling me, right now. Perhaps that's my "side door".

 

Play is the centerpiece of my practices, like parkour, dance, etc. My aim is not to do a particular thing, or to appear a certain way, but rather just to empty myself, and be moved along joyfully by the intersection of where the world and I meet. I have been trying to make play and dance my connections to all of my life, as well, surrendering goals and thoughts about what I should be doing. Of course, it's harder to find that balance in the world of work and money.

 

My mission for the last few years has been exploring play with other grown-ups, and some kids, and capturing it on video. One example:

 

Schweet!

[deci belle]

Edited June 11, 2011 by deci belle

[宁]

@Decibelle

i feel the ego idea is overworked overrated and of no practical value

Yeah you heard it!!

it can make you go in circles for lifetimes, without really getting to the core of the problem, practically, this is why i avoid it. i consider it of course, and i try to equate it with terms that i can 'work' with - that are not too abstract, IME it's the wisest thing to do.

 

@Otis

the idea of play might work in our western mindframe, however it has little part to play in a coherent and specific methodology as appears to be the case with the daoist alchemy.

 

it's work (of a specific nature) over (specific amounts of) time, again and again, until something (you have no prior idea or experience about) kind of 'settles' .

we in the west don't have time for that sh*t, and try to kind of go around it, weaseling out of it by any philosophycal means.

this is what worries me.. and the reason i don't find new age quacks palatable much

[三江源]

I use sense data to establish the usefulness of a meditation, and by sense data I mean the feelings in my mind, the energies, the qi.

.....................

The things I test are pretty simple. Such as this example: I lately stumbled on the "feeling of gratefulness" and feeling of humbleness before the universe, like a paper boat in a storm.So during meditation or yoga, I would bring up these feelings by suggesting to myself scenarios. At the same time I can measure whats happening kinesthetically with my qi and mind-feelings.

 

 

 

This is it.

[C T]

Hi L1,

 

Interesting thoughts here. I hope you do not mind if i chip in a bit. As you know, i work within the Buddhist (Dzogchen) framework. It has a similar view with regards to this subject of method and effect/result.

 

I am aware that you wanted input from Taoist practitioners, so i would hope to make this as brief as possible.

 

Dzogchen talks about the View and Method. An expansion of this is Ground, Path and Fruition.

 

Ground is likened to the mind, Path is likened to Instruction/Method, and Fruition is like the ultimate accomplishment, or Buddhahood.

 

Buddhism emphasizes that the mind is the seat of all things known and yet to be known, which is why its called the Ground.

 

When a student has completed the preliminary practices, and is ripe for advancing into the latter practices, he or she goes to the teacher and takes refuge in the path. At this point the teacher 'shows' or literally reveals to the student his or her real sky-like Nature, free from any concepts and beyond any analytical comprehension.

 

This moment of being introduced to one's innate buddha nature is called the View. Its a taste, a glimpse of what it means to remain in unbroken awareness beyond dualistic thoughts. So its like an 'AH ha' moment... very profound, very deep, and at the point of seeing, its like suddenly all the clouds have vanished, and only the space and sky remain, with no one there to see feel this spacious experience. Separation is cut to the very core, like pouring water into the ocean. To use applicable language, one has found the Main Door, and has been given a peek at what is behind it.

 

What is behind the Main Door is simply the recognition that in essence, the Ground in which we operate from, and the Ground in which Realized Beings, Buddhas and Sages operate from, is the exact same. This recognition is crucial, because it allows for the student to know beyond doubt that whatever he or she undertakes as practice from here on is going to lead him or her closer and closer to stabilizing the View, with the ultimate aim of the total cessation of all distractive and destructive clinging so that one can remain 24/7 in deep contemplative, non-dual awareness.

 

At this juncture, the teacher tells the student to rest in this state for as long as possible, to allow a sense of deep familiarization to pervade the awareness. Usually such initiations are done one to one, and the process is not the same as awakening the kundalini, in case some readers are wondering. There are no explosions, no wild flailing of arms and no spontaneous knee jerks and body spasms/contortions. In fact, there is a lot of calm, serenity and deep insight pervading the moment.

 

Of course, before this empowerment takes place, the student is made aware of all the hard work involved thereafter. This is where the Method or Path aspect takes over. Its all about practice. Practice pounds the foundations of recognizing the View deeper and deeper. As the practice progresses, all the neurotic tendencies, gathered over lifetimes, gets churned up, or to put it not in a nice way, all the shitty habitual traits rises up to the surface. Those who can hack it gets to remain, with a good chance of being able to walk thru the Main Door eventually. Those that dont, well, they go out the Pang Men of course!

 

To minimize exiting the side doors, teachers and senior practitioners often help the newer students along. This is where the Sangha comes in. Support is very important. It is crucial that one has access to this supportive network of peers and spiritual friends so that one does not get into a rut. As the excitement begins to calm down, and practice and stability in the View becomes less and less conceptual, the student can then opt to go for retreats, which can range from a few days to a month to 3 months to a year to 3 years, and so on.

 

Not everyone who begins this work need to go thru the upheavals. Some, especially those who are mature enough in terms of having years of grounding practice, experience a very peaceful transition. Such individuals work with the relevant Peaceful Deities that they have affinity with, while those who find their journey more traumatic and dramatic are introduced to the Wrathful Deities - basically the enlightened aspects of one's negativities - who will help to cut thru, subjugate and transform the difficult emotions quicker. It all depends on the make-up of the individual practitioner.

 

Anyway, over a period of about a dozen years, gradually the enlightened qualities of a buddha will begin to take over the student's mind. At this point, there will arise the Fruition aspects of the training. Visible traits of transformed Body, Speech and Action will become clearer and more refined as time passes. Old habits die off, to be replaced by their enlightened counterparts. After another dozen or so years, one begins to think, feel and act like a buddha, and this is when complete alchemy has been actuated.

 

At this point, it no longer matters if one takes the Main Door or the Side Doors. Everything becomes equalized, One Taste, no more discrimination. All concepts and associated fears have been eliminated. Buddha Nature dictates that when such a realized being steps behind the side doors, whatever is behind them becomes blessed and liberated. Thats the belief anyways.

 

Thank you for the opportunity to share this for your consideration. Just something to reflect upon. Who knows, it might throw some ideas that may help to answer some questions about methods and why there are no quick fixes on the spiritual path, and also why its important to apply methods to enhance profitable effects and reduce the unwanted dross.

 

I could expand more, but i think this is sufficient at this point.

 

Thanks.

[宁]

@CowTao, thanks, it is sufficient! I do appreciate reading most of your posts (which tend to be too long-winded sometimes, and therefore too buddhist for my taste, but nevertheless interesting and informative especially when punctual i hope you're getting the message across the way it was intended, goodly - i digress some more, i don't quite get how could Zen buddhism evolved out from a completely talkative religion such as Buddhism)

 

Back to the original ideas, yes they are adressed to daoists mostly, and i'm afraid it will slowly die out, because there's not much daoism left on Taobums paradoxically

[三江源]

@CowTao, thanks, it is sufficient! I do appreciate reading most of your posts (which tend to be too long-winded sometimes, and therefore too buddhist for my taste, but nevertheless interesting and informative especially when punctual i hope you're getting the message across the way it was intended, goodly - i digress some more, i don't quite get how could Zen buddhism evolved out from a completely talkative religion such as Buddhism)

 

Back to the original ideas, yes they are adressed to daoists mostly, and i'm afraid it will slowly die out, because there's not much daoism left on Taobums paradoxically

 

Is it just the practical daoists here that appreciate concision?!

[三江源]

Hi there,

 

in your opinion, what is the best way to establish a valid coonection between Method and Effect.

It is said that if the Effect is sought and expected, the Mind will create a False effect, as a result of expectations, therefore impending the true Effect of the method to manifest on its own accord.

If this is true, then most of the methods that exist on the spiritual market fall into this category.

 

This isn't a matter of criticizing what others choose to do, but an honest quest for the answer to this question: If we wouldn't have know the intended effects of the practices we got involved into... what would they have resulted into??

 

 

Thanks!

 

L1

 

BTW, Little1, my answer to the above is DROP EXPECTATIONS.

 

As an addenda to that, drop the post mortems, too. The working up of experiences after the event, with inflated interpretations and lables is soooo counter productive.

[宁]

Is it just the practical daoists here that appreciate concision?!

Cat, the way i heard it, daoism is practical mostly, because it's the fruit of a very practical civilisation, the Chinese. Besides, the scope of practice is to be practical, ain't it?

 

RE: dropping expectations, yes! it's what i said.

[三江源]

Cat, the way i heard it, daoism is practical mostly, because it's the fruit of a very practical civilisation, the Chinese. Besides, the scope of practice is to be practical, ain't it?

 

RE: dropping expectations, yes! it's what i said.

 

we just had the perfect taoist discussion.

[宁]

we just had the perfect taoist discussion.

 

ah-hum... might as well just use nodding emoticons when we (you and i) discuss!

nodding, [no text]

[三江源]

[宁]

[doc benway]

 

 

Awwww,

that's nice