Financial Enlightenment?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Since I don't really agree with the original proposition, could somebody summarized the main points of the movie so that I have the arguments?

 

 

Mandrake

Why don't you watch it yourself if you are going to disagree with it. This is like saying, can you tell me what the book is about so I can tell people why it's bad?

[thelerner]

I like money. I use it every day, having it allows me comfort, a measure of security and freedoms. I don't think corporation or big business are evil. This computer I'm typing on is the result of 30 or 40 companies. Similarly the electricity that runs it. Hell, most the objects around me are from companies that employ people and allow them to make a living.

 

Banks, I'm fine with them. My house, my parents house, my car & education, all used banks to finance them. No one has to use them or credit cards, indeed they're a double edged sword, but if used properly they're quite a blessing. What is properly? Don't over leverage, don't buy stuff you can't afford and don't need. To owe too much is to become an indentured servant.

 

I use 'the buying question'..Imagine 2 weeks or a month after you've bought something, someone offers you the same amount you paid for it. If you think you might take them up on the offer, don't buy it. In every financial decision look for value. Every purchase is an investment.

 

The best way to get money is have a good job. Keep your eyes open, let your light shine. See if you can combine your passion with a steady career. If you can't then seek a job that pays well and carry on w/ your passion on the side. Look for ways where you can turn a serious hobby into a side job. The book 'Money Mastery' has some good principles and practices in it

 

Live well. That doesn't mean keeping up with Jones; be wise, stay real. Enjoy life, pleasure doesn't have to cost much. Really the best part of life is connecting with others. Enjoy the fruits of the season. Always be a tourist, looking at things and people with interest.

 

Saving money.. learn to like water and to cook healthy and well. I tell my kids the water drinker ends up richer and healthier.

 

A part of happiness is having no debt and nice nest egg. Force yourself to save a bit of each paycheck (when you close to debt free). The standard advice of putting money regularly into non-correlated assets is good. Slightly better is to ride the big waves of change. But if you go that route you have to pay closer attention and know when to get off the wave.

 

For example, natural gas prices are historically low right now on account of some big finds in the U.S and Canada. Natural Gas Pipe lines companies like Oneok (OKS) and Kinder Morgan (KMP) pay about 5.5 to 6.5% dividends. Buy'em, have dividends re-invested, forget about them. In 10 years if the price is the same, you'll have 60 or 70% more stock due to the re-investment. You may have an investment that'll be paying you the equivalent of 15 to 20% yearly interest on your money, but it took 10 years for that miracle of compounded interest to happen.

 

Odds are natural gas stock prices will be much higher by then because coal and nuclear plants are being shut down and/or converted into natural gas plants. I could be wrong, individual companies can go bankrupt for myriad reasons and the futures hard to predict. Still the rewards of a good solid growing investment are such that they can mean the difference between a comfortable old age and one that lacks.

 

Its not love of money, but intelligent use of it. Like the cave taoist knows his environment and the seasons, and urban taoist should know what bears fruit in there world. How to take advantage of it and flow with its cycles.

 

I almost didn't write that last line, 'take advantage of it', struck me as somehow selfish. But life isn't a zero sum game. Don't degrade the environment but we can take advantage of it in order to have a better life. Breaking out of win/lose calculations into win/win thinking is the way of truest growth.

 

 

 

my 2 cents

Edited June 21, 2011 by thelerner

[Mandrake]

Why don't you watch it yourself if you are going to disagree with it. This is like saying, can you tell me what the book is about so I can tell people why it's bad?

 

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I don't automatically agree with the statement:

"Capital creating capital basically. No work is done, just clever scheming and greed."

However, the movie may well present arguments that I agree with, and this is what I asked for, and not for confirming any a priori stance toward the movie itself.

 

On the other hand, one can't expect people to watch a 2:42 hour movie just to be able to continue discussing, just as we can't have a massive book list instead of pointing directly to the arguments, succinctly.

 

 

Mandrake

[Lucky7Strikes]

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I don't automatically agree with the statement:

"Capital creating capital basically. No work is done, just clever scheming and greed."

However, the movie may well present arguments that I agree with, and this is what I asked for, and not for confirming any a priori stance toward the movie itself.

 

On the other hand, one can't expect people to watch a 2:42 hour movie just to be able to continue discussing, just as we can't have a massive book list instead of pointing directly to the arguments, succinctly.

 

 

Mandrake

The part about the market begins around 40 minutes and is less than half an hour long. Before you just say, I disagree, say exactly how you disagree and uh, what your disagreement is?

 

I'll try to summarize briefly here:

 

The monetary system we have today works on the principles of of debt and interest. This leads to inflation because there is demand for more money to be made and printed. It's not a system of equilibrium, but unlimited growth.

 

The government goes into debt when it decides to print more money. Money is made out of debt. Then when it gets put in the bank the bank can loan out money on the basis of credit without actual exchange of the money. So more money is created out of debt/interest paradigm. This leads to inflation rates that the rest of the economy, in terms of services and goods, cannot catch up with so people go into more debt. Inequality is basically built into the system between the lender and the borrower, the biggest lender being the bank itself.

 

If you are on the borrower side you are basically working up an ever steepening hill. You are forced to work because the assets you have will continually be devalued. This whole paradigm extends not only to people but to countries like Jamaica where the IMF gives them money, the country goes into debt, is forced to open its doors to foreign companies, loses its natural resources and economic autonomy, and goes into...further debt because the money isn't going to the people but to banks and corporations.

 

This also leads to ==>

 

The current economic paradigm is based on supply and demand: production and consumption fuels the market, and the faster the system runs, the system is seen to regulate itself. But this is only theoretical because resources the money supposedly represents are limited. So what companies and corporations do is err on the side of a wasteful mode of production that destroys the environment since the more wasteful you are, buying and buying, the system works as it is supposed to. The money needs to move in order for there to be profit, so stability is seen as stagnancy: conflict is what generates profit. That's why we are bred to be consumers since we are born. We no longer run on the concept of "need" but on "wants" that have little to do with our actual biological and psychological fulfillments.

 

We have created an economy that is destructive to our own sense of contentment and environmental preservation and have made our lives into wage laborers.

 

Money no longer represents goods, it represents itself. This is evident in stock markets and debt trading where the money doesn't value or represent anything but are traded, lended, bundled in complex derivatives for the sole purpose of profit, adding nothing of physical or service value to society

 

Anyways, this is the basic jest, I'm not an economics expert, but I have friends who are studying in business schools who agree with the above observances. I encourage you watch the video because it explains things in more knowledgeable formats.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Mandrake]

[Jesse]

Boy...a lot of us have a tendency to dump a lot of issues onto money (myself included). When in reality it does not need to be that way, money is just a neutral energy or exchange. It's what we want it to be or wish it to be that causes the problems. Before there was money people traded goods and services, and there came a point when trading became to cumbersome and there needed to be a different form of exchange so money was developed as a neutral form of payment for goods or services rendered. It has no other value then that, but we tend to pin a ton of our desires on money which gives it an elusive quality to it. Here are a couple of items that continue to help me better understand money.

 

Prosperity Consciousness

 

This program helped me a lot. Fredric Lehrman talks about money from an energy standpoint. He suggests that you save a portion of your income and put it into 5 separate savings accounts (based off of the 5 elements/phases). He has a good way of taking the "mystery" out of money and making it seem real and simple. He is a student of Professor Cheng Man-ch'ing and happened to be my first Tai Chi instructors teacher which I didn't even know until one day I heard my instructor talking about him and I put two and two together.

 

Your Money or Your Life

 

This one was mentioned in this thread earlier and I second it whole heartily. This is a great money book. It truly has you look at whats important in life and it stresses living a more balanced simple life. They talk a lot about truly deciding if you need one more "thing" or can you be satisfied with what you have and save your money. It's a great book...it felt very grounding to me when I was reading it.

 

Hope these suggestions help

[Lucky7Strikes]

Boy...a lot of us have a tendency to dump a lot of issues onto money (myself included). When in reality it does not need to be that way, money is just a neutral energy or exchange. It's what we want it to be or wish it to be that causes the problems. Before there was money people traded goods and services, and there came a point when trading became to cumbersome and there needed to be a different form of exchange so money was developed as a neutral form of payment for goods or services rendered. It has no other value then that, but we tend to pin a ton of our desires on money which gives it an elusive quality to it. Here are a couple of items that continue to help me better understand money.

I understand you coming from a psychological standpoint. But the current system is rigged. Money no longer represents "things" anymore. It only appears that way.

[thelerner]

I understand you coming from a psychological standpoint. But the current system is rigged. Money no longer represents "things" anymore. It only appears that way.

 

The system is always rigged, by its very nature its an agreed upon fiction. Even when it was based on Gold or silver; some places the metal is worth this much, other places, its not. An oz of gold is actually relatively worthless. Try going into a store and spending it. Its only useful if you can trade it into dollars.

 

Ultimately your pesos, shekels or bouillon are 'worth' whatever the collective society says they are. The bigger the collective the more useful the money.

Edited June 28, 2011 by thelerner